Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

SafeSurfer

Let’s hope the ceasefire holds now and that both sides are pressured to negotiate toward a lasting peace.

Unfortunately I don’t believe this will happen.

We have been here before and once peace resumes, the Palestinian - Israeli conflict will be out of the headlines and quickly forgotten by the media and us all.

wes

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Let’s hope the ceasefire holds now and that both sides are pressured to negotiate toward a lasting peace.

Unfortunately I don’t believe this will happen.

We have been here before and once peace resumes, the Palestinian - Israeli conflict will be out of the headlines and quickly forgotten by the media and us all.

I will disagree a bit, there is no peace for Palestinians, not really. The ethnic cleansing will continue as per usual, apartheid will be ongoing. It never ending for the Palestinians.

SafeSurfer

markodaly wrote: »

I guess Hamas are waving the white flag.

Realistically it is a huge setback for Israeli politically and highlights the inability of the regions greatest military power defeating insurgents in the most monitored area on earth, less than half the size of county Louth.

The IDF haven’t eliminated Hamas’ capability to strike Israel with rockets. For how ever many billions they have expended in the last 11 days they haven’t achieved anything but international opprobrium.

Overheal

markodaly wrote: »

I guess Hamas are waving the white flag.

More like Bibi finally got what he wanted

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-israel-748a13f933111e2341fcf1d01f86bdb7

White flags were offered to him last week - but last week he was still facing down a failure to form a government. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210512-israel-rejects-egypts-ceasefire-proposal-for-conflict-with-gaza/

wes

This is the cost of the conflict:
https://twitter.com/GoAwaySaad/status/1395300971677376513?s=20

This is what the IDF deliberately did by targeting entire families in a loathsome act of genocide. I will never forget the awful crimes perpetrated by the IDF, and defended by far too many people.

markodaly

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Realistically it is a huge setback for Israeli politically and highlights the inability of the regions greatest military power defeating insurgents in the most monitored area on earth, less than half the size of county Louth.

The IDF haven’t eliminated Hamas’ capability to strike Israel with rockets. For how ever many billions they have expended in the last 11 days they haven’t achieved anything but international opprobrium.

I'm not sure about that. From reports, they have killed lots of Hamas militants, including Bassem Issa.

Put it this way, what has Hamas achieved apart from more death and destruction in the Gaza strip?
The status quo suits Israel fine, it is up to the PLO and Hamas to change the game and get to a long-lasting solution to the issue.

Or, will we see Hamas just regroup and do the same thing again in 5 years with the same predictable outcomes?

markodaly

Overheal wrote: »

More like Bibi finally got what he wanted

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-israel-748a13f933111e2341fcf1d01f86bdb7

White flags were offered to him last week - but last week he was still facing down a failure to form a government. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210512-israel-rejects-egypts-ceasefire-proposal-for-conflict-with-gaza/

There was always going to be a ceasefire when Israel was ready. They knew they had about 2 weeks to 'clean shop'. So this isnt really news.

So, what has changed on the ground.....

Purple is a Fruit

Purple is a Fruit wrote: »

Yeah I agree Israel has to defend itself from Hamas attacks but people who don't acknowledge that the attacks can be completely disproportionate and claim they back Israel 100% just seem like sad edgelords. It's sociopathic to be genuinely that lacking in empathy towards children.

If you care about saving lives and if Hamas is morally superior to the evil israelis, then how about breaking the cycle of violence and stop the rocket attacks. They not only don't achieve anything, they usually do more harm than good to the Palestinians in Gaza. I can't believe people can justify this violence. Building settlements is wrong but firing rockets indiscriminately is equally wrong if not more wrong.

wes

wes wrote: »

This is the cost of the conflict:
https://twitter.com/GoAwaySaad/status/1395300971677376513?s=20

This is what the IDF deliberately did by targeting entire families in a loathsome act of genocide. I will never forget the awful crimes perpetrated by the IDF, and defended by far too many people.

The video is sad, nobody wants to see families and kids hurt like this. But you make it seem as though Israel deliberately targeted entire families who were completely innocent for no reason. As another person pointed out, if Israel wanted to commit genocide it is doing a terrible job of it, with the relatively low number of casualties in such a densely populated area.

The only options militarily for Israel to stop rocket attacks are to target Hamas leadership like this, or do a ground invasion of gaza. The latter would be far more bloody and painful and traumatic for everyone.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The video is sad, nobody wants to see families and kids hurt like this.

Some posters here would appear to have no issue with the deaths of Israeli civilians, believing targing Israeli population centres is a legitimate tactic.

Overheal wrote: »

White flags were offered to him last week - but last week he was still facing down a failure to form a government. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210512-israel-rejects-egypts-ceasefire-proposal-for-conflict-with-gaza/

Well that's not true.
Nowhere does it say "white flags were offered"...

Big difference between a third party call for a truce, and your adversary waving a white flag.

MikeOxsgreen

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Some posters here would appear to have no issue with the deaths of Israeli civilians, believing targing Israeli population centres is a legitimate tactic.

It's amazing that people can justify the rocket firing from Gaza into Israel on the grounds of settlement building in the West Bank. Then accuse others of "whataboutery" when pointing out all the horrific human rights abuses going on all around Israel.

myfreespirit

wes wrote: »

A brilliant refutation of the immoral opposition to Palestinian right to return by Peter Beinart. It is a long read btw.

A Jewish case for Palestinian refugee return


Its worth a read and gives some details on the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, which it seem a lot of people are either unaware or choose to deny.

An excellent, if dispiriting read, about the plight of Palestinians in modern Israel, the Occupied Territories and those displaced in Jordan, Lebanon and elsewhere. It is very difficult to see how the results of the Nakba can be fixed, especially with the weight of US political, economic and military power set against any fair settlement for Palestinian people.

Fandymo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Let's put this in context: you are comparing Jihadist Hamas choosing to place rocket launchers in the centre of multiple apartment blocks, consciously and intentionally to maximize civilian death among their own population, to a sovereign state having the HQ of their defense force in their capital city?

...what!?

80% of Israelis do military service. All legitimate targets.

Fandymo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Precisely.

Of course, 200 civilian deaths is dreadful, and even worse when you consider that many of these deaths were preventable had Hamas not planted these military installations in these areas.

Conversely, Israel could have - if they wanted and desired mass casualties - killed tens of thousands of people. It would be possible in a heartbeat, never mind 10-days.

But Israel didn't. And you have to ask the question: why not?

And the only answer is that Israel TRIED to minimize civilian deaths. Whilst it may not always be possible, that was and is their intention.

That much is abundantly clear.

Why not? To keep USA onside.

Fandymo

Fandymo wrote: »

Why not? To keep USA onside.

If the roles were reversed and the Palestinians had the firepower instead of the Israelis, do you really think they would exercise the same restraint?

I think they would send in the tanks to crush every Jewish man, woman and child if they could.

Fandymo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If the roles were reversed and the Palestinians had the firepower instead of the Israelis, do you really think they would exercise the same restraint?

I think they would send in the tanks to crush every Jewish man, woman and child if they could.

If my aunt had balls she’d be my .........., well it’s different nowadays, but you know what I mean.

Fandymo

Fandymo wrote: »

If my aunt had balls she’d be my .........., well it’s different nowadays, but you know what I mean.

Oh, so you're trans-phobic as well as anti-semitic? A 2 for the price of 1 bigot, congrats!

(Joke).

wes

Fandymo wrote: »

If my aunt had balls she’d be my .........., well it’s different nowadays, but you know what I mean.

They know they haven't a leg to stand, hence the what if scenarios.

Mimon

Deleted User wrote: »

If the roles were reversed and the Palestinians had the firepower instead of the Israelis, do you really think they would exercise the same restraint?

I think they would send in the tanks to crush every Jewish man, woman and child if they could.

You do realise that there was Jewish minority in Palestine before the creation of Israel and that they lived along side the Palestinians in peace?

Mimon

Mimon wrote: »

You do realise that there was Jewish minority in Palestine before the creation of Israel and that they lived along side the Palestinians in peace?

This idea that Jews were allowed to live in harmony alongside their welcoming Palestinian brethren is a nonsense made up by people who want to pretend that everything was perfect prior to 1948.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Safed_attacks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Safed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Druze_attack_on_Safed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

https://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2016/01/persecution-of-jews-in-muslim-countries.html

Jews may have lived there, but they lived there as an oppressed population. Their homes, lands and synagogues were taken away from them, they were put into ghettoes, jailed if they were suspected of having property. Sound familiar?

We're not children, and it's just not as simple as "good guys" and "bad guys". And attempts to make it that simple from the comfort of an armchair where the only siren you're likely to hear is the neighbour's RAV4 popping off, is not helping anyone. Least of all the people you ostensibly want to help.

Mimon

Mimon wrote: »

You do realise that there was Jewish minority in Palestine before the creation of Israel and that they lived along side the Palestinians in peace?

You're right. Kind of a case of "better the devil you know". Maybe the British should never have left the place? Ultimately the biggest change was the fall of the Ottoman Empire. They were able to keep a lid on the can of worms.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Jews may have lived there, but they lived there as an oppressed population. Their homes, lands and synagogues were taken away from them, they were put into ghettoes, jailed if they were suspected of having property. Sound familiar?

And Haganah was set up precisely because of these constant Arab attacks against Jews.

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

We're not children, and it's just not as simple as "good guys" and "bad guys". And attempts to make it that simple from the comfort of an armchair where the only siren you're likely to hear is the neighbour's RAV4 popping off, is not helping anyone. Least of all the people you ostensibly want to help.

There were plenty of periods where people lived side by side in peace as well. Saying that it was constant unending violence is similarly ahistorical.

wes

wes wrote: »

There were plenty of periods where people lived side by side in peace as well. Saying that it was constant unending violence is similarly ahistorical.

"Peace" that is habitually punctuated by periods of extreme violence does not sound like much of a "peace" to me. Nor does it need to be "unending".

wes

wes wrote: »

There were plenty of periods where people lived side by side in peace as well. Saying that it was constant unending violence is similarly ahistorical.

I didn't say there was constant, unending violence. I said there was oppression of the Jewish people who lived in the region and objected to the assertion that the Jewish minority in Palestine "lived along side the Palestinians in peace". They were second class citizens even during times of peace—at best. Of course there were friendships on the individual and community level—there always are. But saying that they were perfectly fine and living side-by-side in harmony with their fellow citizens is like saying that black people were just dandy in the Jim Crow era, or Palestinians in Israel today are just fine. It's simply wrong.

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't say there was constant, unending violence. I said there was oppression of the Jewish people who lived in the region. They were second class citizens even during times of peace—at best. Of course there were friendships on the individual and community level—there always are. But saying that they were perfectly fine and living side-by-side in harmony with their fellow citizens is like saying that black people were just dandy in the Jim Crow era, or Palestinians in Israel today are just fine. It's simply wrong.

I take your point, but what happened in the past doesn't mean the exact same thing would happen in the future. If that was the case, then we would be due Europe starting another world war any day now.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"Peace" that is habitually punctuated by periods of extreme violence does not sound like much of a "peace" to me. Nor does it need to be "unending".

You should probably get out of Europe so.

wes

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You should probably get out of Europe so.

We should prepare for a British invasion any day now!

Timberrrrrrrr

wes wrote: »

We should prepare for a British invasion any day now!

Nah we're too busy drinking pints in the pubs

Sorry/not sorry :pac:

Odhinn

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

It's illegal, morally repugnant, and wrong.
They should stop. Peace is unlikely if they persist.

Whats your opinion on Hamas firing rockets at Israeli civilians, are they legitimate targets, or is it wrong to fire unguided rockets at civilians?

its wrong to fire unguided rockets at civilians