Is Ireland's justice system lenient?

Jequ0n

starkid wrote: »

christ this is the sort you're dealing with. you are genuinely warped. yeah the victim and their families have to live with the consequences for eternity in effect. read the side effects of the parents in that blowtorch case. you can sod off if you think they are playing some sort of card. that incident could have life long affects. utterly twisted thinking.

I am not interested in victim impact statements etc. In fact I don’t think they should ever be allowed in court cases because they are nothing but an attempt to influence judge/ jury.

Sure, nothing works better to fuel a mob than a story involving a baby.

Wanderer78

starkid wrote: »

i've explained some of the system in Norway. Again you've failed to directly answer a relatively easy question. what other deterrents would you accept in this reduction of crime. Increased gardai, cctv, tagging, fines, community service...what? again the thing that pisses me off with people like yourself is that you think it can be done without any of this. Purely educational or on some fantasy long term project of changing the ****ty capitalist sytem we have. In the here and now what are you willing to accept?

I completely disagree in many crimes and you'll never convince people like me as you can't explai nwhy that is the case. you can't. i have given you my reason, you have whimsical theory and ideals.

again, your approach is trying to 'deter', again, some humans simply couldnt give a fcuk what methods you use to do so, theyre simply wired this way, again, you truly could threaten them with the death penalty for steal a single penny jelly, they wouldnt give two fcuks! increased gardai, always a good idea, we re swamped with cctv, tagging, know a chap that was, hes still a criminal! fines, might work for some, but known not to work very well, the threat certainly donest stop me from breaking laws. community service, not a bad idea, but you d have to match people with services, no point sending the wrong type to the wrong thing.

as always, not much of an idea what you re talking about!

we have much clearer ideas of what truly causes many crimes, but we have little or no interest in implementing changes to try prevent them, so.......

starkid

Jequ0n wrote: »

I am not interested in victim impact statements etc. In fact I don’t think they should ever be allowed in court cases because they are nothing but an attempt to influence judge/ jury.

Sure, nothing works better to fuel a mob than a story involving a baby.

its actually viewpoints like your's that rise a mob. its why i used the short form of woke. I'm a centrist, balanced. both sides can be somewhat right, the world is full of grey. But if people want to know why the world is ****ed its because of people like yourself. why the flyover states would vote a trump in. But in terms of violent murder, assaults, rapes, etc victims ****ing matter. i just don't understand your viewpoint at all. to me its completely crazy.

starkid

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, your approach is trying to 'deter', again, some humans simply couldnt give a fcuk what methods you use to do so, theyre simply wired this way, again, you truly could threaten them with the death penalty for steal a single penny jelly, they wouldnt give two fcuks! increased gardai, always a good idea, we re swamped with cctv, tagging, know a chap that was, hes still a criminal! fines, might work for some, but known not to work very well, the threat certainly donest stop me from breaking laws. community service, not a bad idea, but you d have to match people with services, no point sending the wrong type to the wrong thing.

as always, not much of an idea what you re talking about!

we have much clearer ideas of what truly causes many crimes, but we have little or no interest in implementing changes to try prevent them, so.......

as always, not much of an idea what you re talking about! ...funny stuff

so better to do none of that cause none of it works. wow what a great take. did i ever say they didn't give a ****? i know they don't. which is why the majority of the people should be protected and viewpoints like yours would be i'd reckon in the minority. but you stil lcan't give the reason why certain scumbags deserve rehabilitation and what good it does society.

anyway i think we're done here cause you're clearly trying to wind me up.

Wanderer78

starkid wrote: »

as always, not much of an idea what you re talking about! ...funny stuff

so better to do none of that cause none of it works. wow what a great take.

anyway i think we're done here cause you're clearly a wum

shur i know....

again, can you give me a working example of your methods?

...and what the hell is a wum? ....and im the one with dyslexia!

starkid

Wanderer78 wrote: »

shur i know....

again, can you give me a working example of your methods?

...and what the hell is a wum? ....and im the one with dyslexia!

there's plenty of countries that do the above. they're deterrents they do ****ing work. I mean the whole New York crime thing is actually real you know.

In an Irish sense who knows. Our gun crime was quite high for such a small jurisdiction and then they brought in more armed gardai and OT. so theres two off the top of my head. of course people don't give a **** in these places still, but it would be far worse if we just said ah shur...what can u do...

Wanderer78

starkid wrote: »

there's plenty of countries that do the above. they're deterrents they do ****ing work. I mean the whole New York crime thing is actually real you know.

In an Irish sense who knows. Our gun crime was quite high for such a small jurisdiction and then they brought in more armed gardai and OT. so theres two off the top of my head. of course people don't give a **** in these places still, but it would be far worse if we just said ah shur...what can u do...

....once again, the 'deterrent' approach simply doesnt work for some humans, it really really doesnt, they simply just move on to greener pastures, we dont know what to truly do with these individuals, but we have a very good understanding of others....

Jequ0n

starkid wrote: »

its actually viewpoints like your's that rise a mob. its why i used the short form of woke. I'm a centrist, balanced. both sides can be somewhat right, the world is full of grey. But if people want to know why the world is ****ed its because of people like yourself. why the flyover states would vote a trump in. But in terms of violent murder, assaults, rapes, etc victims ****ing matter. i just don't understand your viewpoint at all. to me its completely crazy.

I am probably the least likely candidate for the woke camp but thank you very much.

No the victim impact statement should not influence the sentence. So just because one victim copes with the same crime worse than another one means that the sentence should be higher? I’d argue the sentence should be based on the actual crime and should be the same. But that does not happen when sob stories come into play and remove objectivity.

pipelaser

Wait until you see the sentencing for this case and it will tell you all you need to know about how lenient the system is.

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0518/1222339-court-children/

Geuze

Here is another example:

two criminals, 100 convictions each.

Caught red-handed in Cavan.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/three-burglary-gang-members-arrested-after-quad-bike-chase-40445353.html

If we had a policy of, say, 100 convictions = 10 years in jail, then they could not have committed this crime.

Wanderer78

pipelaser wrote: »

Wait until you see the sentencing for this case and it will tell you all you need to know about how lenient the system is.

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0518/1222339-court-children/

oh ffs, please educate yourself about complex psychological conditions such as psychosis, its relatively common, and a close loved one may someday experience it, and if they do, they ll need your help, immediately

pipelaser

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh ffs, please educate yourself about complex psychological conditions such as psychosis, its relatively common, and a close loved one may someday experience it, and if they do, they ll need your help, immediately

All these family mass killings seem to involve someone who has a history of mental illness, but where do you draw the line?
Does this mean that anyone, who at any point has taken anti depressants or has been committed to institutional care has an excuse to carry out repeated calculated murder attempts as described in the article? As you say it's relatively common, but you dont hear of mass killings as a direct proportion.
I dont think it's a case of educating oneself on different levels of psychosis, it's about finding the appropriate justice given the facts. I doubt she'll face any repercussions and will have the oppurtuinity to start a new life somewhere else before long.

Wanderer78

pipelaser wrote: »

All these family mass killings seem to involve someone who has a history of mental illness, but where do you draw the line?
Does this mean that anyone, who at any point has taken anti depressants or has been committed to institutional care has an excuse to carry out repeated calculated murder attempts as described in the article? As you say it's relatively common, but you dont hear of mass killings as a direct proportion.
I dont think it's a case of educating oneself on different levels of psychosis, it's about finding the appropriate justice given the facts. I doubt she'll face any repercussions and will have the oppurtuinity to start a new life somewhere else before long.

...its clearly obvious from this story, its an horrendous situation for a family, most criminal behavior is linked to complex disorders, including psychosis, we know this, we have known this for a very long time, yet, we still do little or nothing about it......

I'd say that blowtorch lad is a hero to some in this thread.

pipelaser

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...its clearly obvious from this story, its an horrendous situation for a family, most criminal behavior is linked to complex disorders, including psychosis, we know this, we have known this for a very long time, yet, we still do little or nothing about it......

We do nothing about it, I hear ya on that, it's a societial problem.
But the question remains, how do you tell the difference between someone carrying out the murders because their mental illness is so bad that they were completely out of control, or did they do it out of spite, badness, giving on their children or what. She was able to kill everyone she wanted-except herself. I think its revealing in how she suddenly didnt seem to have the heart for it.

I hate to sound harsh, and I know it's a sensitive issue. No one sets out to destroy their family, but some somehow manage it.

jmayo

pipelaser wrote: »

Wait until you see the sentencing for this case and it will tell you all you need to know about how lenient the system is.

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0518/1222339-court-children/

Ahh jaysus that is not your normal criminal behaviour.

I am all for very tough sentencing for rape, GBH, attempted murder, murder and most of the manslaughters (most of the ones found guilty of this are pure murderers and it is mostly a cop out to say it wasn't premeditated or accidental - ultimate being the PIRA scum that unloaded an AK47 into a Garda), but this woman is mentally ill.
She should, and probably for her own good, spend the rest of her life in a psychiatric hospital.
It was a great pity the paramedics managed to save her.

Geuze wrote: »

Here is another example:

two criminals, 100 convictions each.

Caught red-handed in Cavan.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/three-burglary-gang-members-arrested-after-quad-bike-chase-40445353.html

If we had a policy of, say, 100 convictions = 10 years in jail, then they could not have committed this crime.

Ahh the poor pets are battling heroin.

Fook them and the quad the rode out on.

jmayo

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...its clearly obvious from this story, its an horrendous situation for a family, most criminal behavior is linked to complex disorders, including psychosis, we know this, we have known this for a very long time, yet, we still do little or nothing about it......

Ahh bullshyte.
Why do people always have to find some mental illness tag to excuse scummy behaviour and criminality.

Some fookers are just lazy and don't want to work to get something when they can just thieve for anything they want.
Yes some are drug users, but again that can be just down to circumstance of life rather than some mental illness.

Most shoplifters are not suffering from some deep psychosis or born kleptomaniacs.
They just want to nick stuff and not have to pay for it.
Also they nick stuff to sell on as a living and to often pay for their drug habits.

Likewise those fellows travelling around the country continously robbing and thieving tools and equipment from farmers and builders are not suffering from some mental illness.
Unless you count laziness and an unwillingness to get a proper job yet expect to get stuff in life for free as a mental illness. :rolleyes:

Wanderer78

pipelaser wrote:

I hate to sound harsh, and I know it's a sensitive issue. No one sets out to destroy their family, but some somehow manage it.

Don't try use logic in such situations, because they are not logical situations, such psychological issues are so complex, we simply don't truly understand them, but we do have a better understanding than the past. Speak to someone that has experienced such a condition, they sound truly terrifying, a complete detachment from reality, where anything is possible, terrifying stuff, I know of kids that have experienced psychosis, scary scary stuff

Wanderer78

jmayo wrote:

I am all for very tough sentencing for rape, GBH, attempted murder, murder and most of the manslaughters (most of the ones found guilty of this are pure murderers and it is mostly a cop out to say it wasn't premeditated or accidental - ultimate being the PIRA scum that unloaded an AK47 into a Garda), but this woman is mentally ill. She should, and probably for her own good, spend the rest of her life in a psychiatric hospital. It was a great pity the paramedics managed to save her.

Many psychological issues, including psychosis, are detectable and treatable, at an early stage, it is very possible she was showing signs of severe distress prior to these acts. She is someone's daughter, you may need to check in with your empathy!

jmayo wrote:

Fook them and the quad the rode out on.

Yup, that's that empathy issue again!

jmayo wrote:

Ahh bullshyte. Why do people always have to find some mental illness tag to excuse scummy behaviour and criminality.

Plenty of research there to back all this up, most, if not all criminals have underlying psychological issues and disorders, many detectable at an early age, but.......

Dyr

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...its clearly obvious from this story, its an horrendous situation for a family, most criminal behavior is linked to complex disorders, including psychosis, we know this, we have known this for a very long time, yet, we still do little or nothing about it......

Really? Most criminals I know come from families of criminals and their kids will be criminals, psychosis is not a culture.

On the fourth offence, the sham should be getting sent down for 12 years, 10 guaranteed as prison time

Offence after that 17 years, 15 guaranteed.

Keep em out of harms way so normal people can have a bit of a breather. Watch the crime rates drop.

Wanderer78

Bambi wrote:

Really? Most criminals I know come from families of criminals and their kids will be criminals, psychosis is not a culture.

Yup, many disorders are hereditary, including my own, nope, psychosis is an horrendous psychological condition, and is probably preventable in many cases

BronsonTB

OP - Yes (TOO LENIENT)
Sickening poor sentence, judge was limited because of the system. Then update the system!

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0519/1222656-dublin-stabbing-jail-term/

BronsonTB

BronsonTB wrote: »

OP - Yes
Sickening poor sentence, judge was limited because of the system

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0519/1222656-dublin-stabbing-jail-term/

Another hero to a few posters here. Probably think the victim should be locked up.

Jequ0n

The psychosis one is interesting, I’m curious to see how it will pan out.
I totally agree that someone suffering a full blown psychotic episode is not themselves and has a very warped view of the world around them. However, I wonder why she didn’t chose to get help if she noticed that things were getting bad again. Then again nobody here knows any details.

"Talbot has 82 previous convictions, including convictions for assault causing harm, violent behaviour in a garda station, criminal damage, possession of knives and public order offences."

Sure god help him. Salt of the earth. Etc.

jmayo

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Many psychological issues, including psychosis, are detectable and treatable, at an early stage, it is very possible she was showing signs of severe distress prior to these acts. She is someone's daughter, you may need to check in with your empathy!
.

Yes she is someone 's daughter and someone's wife and she used to be someone's mother.

I don't feel sorry for her, but for her poor husband, his family and her family.

She will never be a functioning person again.
How can she.

That is why I am saying she would be as well off dead.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

jmayo wrote: »

Ahh the poor pets are battling heroin.

Fook them and the quad the rode out on.

Yup, that's that empathy issue again!

.

Empathy my hole.
They are serial offenders who don't give a flying fook about anyone and you think we should have empathy for them.
Rest assured they have already used the heroin as a get out of jail in the past.
The taxpayers pays for their treatment, pays for their methadone and then on top of that pays for their free legal aid.

So you know what you can do with your empathy for them skangers.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Plenty of research there to back all this up, most, if not all criminals have underlying psychological issues and disorders, many detectable at an early age, but.......

Ah more of the bullshyte.
Any excuse.
Some people are just skangers.
Some people are just thieves and some are just murderers who don't give two shytes about anyone.

Yes there are those that have psychological issues, some are born psychopaths and sociopaths that eventually lose it.
But some just don't care and want stuff the easy way i.e. without working for it.

Jequ0n

jmayo wrote: »

Yes she is someone 's daughter and someone's wife and she used to be someone's mother.

I don't feel sorry for her, but for her poor husband, his family and her family.

So many question marks on this one.
Seems that many people were suspicious and concerned but that little could be done preventatively their end. It suggests that there were loopholes that can probably be closed if things are not brushed under the carpet.

More than one person missed something there

Kermit.de.frog

Deleted User wrote: »

"Talbot has 82 previous convictions, including convictions for assault causing harm, violent behaviour in a garda station, criminal damage, possession of knives and public order offences."

Sure god help him. Salt of the earth. Etc.

In what other country would that person be walking the streets?

I honestly can't think of one. Sweden maybe at a push?

That's Parnell St. Gas when you think about if you are in Dublin City Center at any given time how many double or triple digit conviction holding types are near you and the danger they pose.

starkid

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Many psychological issues, including psychosis, are detectable and treatable, at an early stage, it is very possible she was showing signs of severe distress prior to these acts. She is someone's daughter, you may need to check in with your empathy!



Yup, that's that empathy issue again!



Plenty of research there to back all this up, most, if not all criminals have underlying psychological issues and disorders, many detectable at an early age, but.......

will you stop overegging the empathy card. the other tragedy where the father who murdered his family...would you say the same to the victims family who demaded he be removed from any services and plots and not to be lauded in the press as you seem to be doing with this case? where's your empathy for them? sometimes empathy is warrented, sometimes it is not. if the person in this one was male, there would be far less sympathy. I don't think we are allowed discuss ongoing cases so i won't. but murder suicides are that, and in some cases are utterly dreadful and selfish acts. As somebody who suffers greatly from mental health issues and suicidal ideation, i would never ever ever involve others. We can use the excuse of mental health in every case. Its an easy out. Only in the most extreme cases is it really viable. Complete physcosis and one or two others.

Nearly every human being on the planet probably displays some sort of mental illness at some varying level of scale. There is a huge issue coming down the tracks with over prescribing mental illness (i've suffered from it for decades). you could literally paint every crime as having mental illness as its cause. but we don't for very obvious reasons.

two perps with over 100 convictions between them. as he saids **** them and the quad they rode in on. they deserve to be jailed to protect society from such ignorant, deplorable, selfish *****. it could be 4-5 years of not having to deal with them. in those intervening years we can try to do stuff to reduce crime like extra police and all the rest. but i suppose you'd like to see them rack up another 100 in the hope of helping them out. Shure whats another 100 convictions.

after our discussion yesterday i had a think about it all. i mean look i'm kind fo agreeing with you in one way. if i grew up in some of these bad areas i would most likely be in trouble, i get it. but i was watching this after the debate yesterday. sums up my viewpoint. and i will say its a long game, and its capitalism that is driving alot of it. theres no right way. you're trying to say you have the answer with rehabilitation and lax enough rules (is my take) ...you don't. but nor do i with my viewpoint with harsher deterrents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYXNdELqCe4&fbclid=IwAR0_64LwR7Is0EDyf6rHrglwv-NCJmtaYIArXCFrUiyK2Uxl_jRGaB8muxs

Mike Murdock

Mike Murdock wrote: »

Worse still in the Manuela case, the mother****er that raped and killed her was out on bail for raping another foreign girl.

A sick joke.

And had already killed someone... part of a group that beat someone up in Eyre Sq and killed him... got a Manslaughter for that IIRC which is silly as it was an unprovoked attack so how could it ever be.