The Irish protocol.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145947#Comment_118145947

A patriot would be seeking to end the toxic influence of the British state in Ireland, to those ends Brexit is a benefit in the medium term as it will weaken GB and strengthen Ireland relatively. Brexit also demonstrates to 'others' in the north that Ireland will be more stable and prosperous when British jurisdiction is ended in our country once and for all.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145947#Comment_118145947

...but the vast majority of people on this Island don't want a border between north and south, and want to remain part of the EU. Why should the majority of people on the island betray themselves and their beliefs to appease a small minority of the population that objects to the NIP.

Where are your calls for the NIP objectors to be "patriots", and suck it up for the good of everybody else?

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145988#Comment_118145988

It would affect all of the Western EU members significantly, but we will be worst affected.

We had a trade war of sorts ("economic war") with the UK when country was not long independent, very poor and national economy was entirely based on being the UKs breadbasket + currency was linked to the UK pound.

We should manage alot better this time IMO if the worst happens and your alternative "solution" (using that word loosely) is definitely a very, very bad bet looking to the future. It sets Ireland down a road of increased economic dependence on the UK + likely a role as their local farm/breadbasket again. That is a retrograde step.

swampgas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146065#Comment_118146065

Ireland has never been in a better position to deal with a UK-EU trade war than it is now. Trade links to continental Europe have increased dramatically, and our dependence on the UK for trade is far less than it was even quite recently.

Every time I hear some shrill call to throw in the towel, and kowtow to John Bull again, I despair. And cynically wonder if it's coming from someone running a business who hasn't prepared to diversify away from dependence on the UK market.

J Mysterio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145675#Comment_118145675

Amazing to have this sort of confidence in the UK government. As if they are actually looking out for your interests!

If you haven't learned by now..

J Mysterio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145937#Comment_118145937

Basically, Brexit has forced the UK to confront its own past, and deal with the fallout, but because of the nature of Brexit, those who champion it refuse the reality of what it entails.

No one supports the UK over Ireland in Brexit.

The UK will have to accept some slight mollification and implement the protocol, or prepare to be blasted back a century to the good old days.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145937#Comment_118145937

The problem is that we are told that the Eu will protect nationalist Ireland and will not put a border on the island. Doesn’t seem any way to square that circle without some compromise from Eu around trusted traders etc

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145947#Comment_118145947

The best interests of Ireland and the Irish people is to not to Irexit. Think of all the companies and jobs that would leave here. It would be economic suicide. We should not have the Brits telling us what we should do. The majority of all this Ireland wants to remain in the UK so why we should we go against that?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146117#Comment_118146117

Where am I placing my confidence in the British government? My confidence is around the reality.

I don’t completely understand why, but OWC has punched massively above its weight in world attention for 100years Even you guys are telling me how much Eu & USA will step in if Britain messes with us. And Uk is looking at invoking art 16.

for some strange reason we will be looked after by everyone, even in the midst of a handbag fight between everyone else.

I’d like someone to carry out an analysis as to why, but it’s like a row in a pub and OWC is the wee toddler present that all parties want to ensure isn’t harmed 😇

Now can I have more sweeties or I’ll cry 😭

BluePlanet

I don’t completely understand why, but OWC has punched massively above its weight in world attention for 100years Even you guys are telling me how much Eu & USA will step in if Britain messes with us. And Uk is looking at invoking art 16.

Wait, so now you're NOT the UK but a different country?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146033#Comment_118146033

So what's your solution then?

Mine is to reach out to our unionist brethren, make compromises on all sides as required, agree on a joint future for this island.

I suspect yours maybe to engage in ethic cleansing and shove them all into the Irish Sea? But please elaborate.

The reality coming down the road fast is that there will be a hard trade border on this island. The London government aren't going to be in any hurry to implement this. So the Republic will have to police it, at the behest of our fellow members of the EU that many here seem to think are our loyal friends to the end. I fear we are in for a rude awakening and other EU states will put it up to us to police the EU border, or else.

swampgas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146451#Comment_118146451

The first part is done - that's the GFA.

The UK are trying to bluff the EU into a damaging compromise by threatening the GFA and peace in Ireland, and they are doing so shamelessly. The EU know this, the US knows this. Right now (IMO) we need to hold our nerve and not let the UK threats undermine our resolve to (1) maintain our position in the EU (2) undermine peace in Ireland.

Because if the current shower running the UK get a sense that NI/GFA are weak points where the EU/Ireland will concede, they will never stop threatening NI.

So maybe it's best to head them off at the pass now, and get them used to the fact that threatening war in NI (which is what it boils down to) will not get them anywhere.

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146451#Comment_118146451

I don't think the EU will be hard on Ireland. They'll offer us plenty of wiggle room for 'checks away from the border'.

It's the dark forces within unionism that i'd be worrying about.

People intent on harming Ireland's place within the SM via sabotage like intentionally introducing tainted goods.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146272#Comment_118146272

The EU wishes to retain the Good Friday Agreement in full. Putting a border across the island of Ireland is not compatible with that.

The UK is as much a party to that agreement as an EU member (i.e. Ireland) is. Telling that you don't find fault in the UK for thinking so little of it's obligations but portraying the EU who do think very much of those obligations as some sort of nationalistic crusade against Unionism.

Since the UK wants to Brexit, it's up to the UK to suggest solutions that are compatible with its existing obligations.

If it can't come up with solutions that are compatible, which in the five years (and counting) since the referendum result the UK has spectacularly failed to do, then it's not up to everyone else to just forget about the bits of those obligations that doesn't suit the UK in order for it to happen.

And as for "trusted traders etc." well that requires trust to have been built and established in the first place, unlike the present UK government which seems hellbent on doing quite the opposite by destroying what trust it may have had on the world standing as each day goes by. "Trust us" ain't gonna work as the sudden fix to the woes of the last five years (and counting).

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146272#Comment_118146272

You seem to not understand how this works within the context of trade dispute arbitration.

The legal framework of the SM enabled both parts of Ireland to trade without checks (borders).

The UK have unilaterally exited that framework while agreeing to have NI remain within that SM legal framework.

Now that they are threatening to exit NIP and remove NI from that framework, all bets are off.

But the responsibility of the resultant fall out, from the POV of trade dispute resolution, is entirely the UK's.

The EU doesn't have to change one single sentence of the SM rules to suit the UK.

That's how trade rules work.

It's not the "EU protecting nationalists vs unionists", that is just another sectarian narrative put in your head from the press you consume.

FrancieBrady

What happened to the pending statement by Frost? Has he made it?

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118147089#Comment_118147089

He backed off it a bit. Bit of a nothing, but still keeps the threat out there.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/10/frost-repeats-threat-to-trigger-article-16-but-says-agreement-is-possible

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118147191#Comment_118147191

Some interesting developments in Sefcovic's statement particularly this

10/ Member states are understood to have supported Mr Sefcovic’s continuing efforts in the talks. A number of ambassadors are understood to have called for a “calm, methodical and proportionate” response if the UK triggers Article 16.

However, France and Germany both signalled that a robust response should follow (Germany, surprisingly so, acc to one source)

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1458475847078322181.html

BluePlanet

I dunno, statement from Ireland could be interpreted as a bit weak.

I mean, what can the EU do to make a return to the Protocol impossible? Is that code for: let's not burn our bridges over this.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118147370#Comment_118147370

I see it as code for 'we know what is coming'. The Irish have got wind of the increasing likelihood (see France and Germany) that the rest of the EU reaction will be robust.

Dublin wants a road back to the Protocol because they know sanctions will force a climbdown.

I'd bet my last dollar the UK also got wind of it and that is why Frost backed down from expected statement.

BluePlanet

Grumblings out of Washington don't help Brexiteers either.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146451#Comment_118146451

My solution is a United Ireland so we can end the toxic influence of British jurisdiction in our country which finds its expression in far too much of political unionism. As for reaching out to unionists? The part of our country free of British jurisdiction is all the outreach that's needed, we have a couple of hundred thousand British people living here happily with hundreds-of-thousands more from various countries in Europe and further afield.

Ireland is Unionists' home as much as it is mine. I don't want any Unionists feeling like they have to leave their home because of bad behaviour on the part of the rest of us. As for 'ethnic cleansing', I would want no part of a United Ireland if that was ever remotely on the cards.

I'd be okay with considering alternative or complementary emblems, flags, and the anthem, if that was agreed to democratically. I also wouldn't be against Ulster (9 counties) having regional devolution although I couldn't see it lasting very long as it would probably just prolong the dysfunction.

Here's the problem though -- partition stands in the way of this so it's is an issue of sequencing. We won't fix the north and then unite the country because the north was designed to fail and is inherently dysfunctional.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146092#Comment_118146092

Might be that alright (!)

Charitably, could be people with very strong links (not just wallet-wise!) to the UK or living in the border region, for whom all of this must be extremely worrying. They perhaps don't care much what price the country as a whole would have to pay to just "make it all go away" somehow but a "solution" of kowtowing to the UK is definitely (far, far) too high a cost. As I said, while doing that could conceivably keep the border/NI trade free of customs checks, it may not even save the Good Friday Agreement generally longer term (if that would be part of the aim) as I would not trust this UK govt. to uphold it anyway.

FrancieBrady

https://twitter.com/davemacladd/status/1458484220934991878

😁 Funny but true.

votecounts

https://twitter.com/IrishmanUnited/status/1458503191453126657

The protocol seems to be working according to businesses but it is opposed by Unionists who are so insecure in their "Britishness". Don't care about what benefits the North for 2 communities. Some things never change

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146355#Comment_118146355

So you’re wee toddlers who will cry and stamp your feet if you don’t get all the sweeties you want 😀. Yep, hard to disagree with you for once 😀😀

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146579#Comment_118146579

Do you really think that upsetting nationalists with checks at Newry is unacceptable and threatening war, but upsetting unionists with checks at Larne is acceptable and not threatening war?

checks are not required at either

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146588#Comment_118146588

Wise up. If you really believe what you are saying then there is no hope for compromise with your type

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146634#Comment_118146634

“The EU wishes to retain the Good Friday Agreement in full. Putting a border across the island of Ireland is not compatible with that.”

show me anywhere the gfa says either, there should be no border on the island or that it is ok to have a border at Larne. You guys have been completely hoodwinked by the shinners of you believe that’s what the gfa says.

quite the contrary. The gfa recognises the border between the two nations of Uk and roi

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118148280#Comment_118148280

Again with the attempt to sectarianise it.

NOBODY wants a hard border at Newry, not just nationalists.

NOBODY wants a trade border at Larne not just Unionists.

Unionism wanted to Brexit, but doesn't want the consequences of Brexit, one of which was securing the Single Market. The EU negotiated that and it was the UK that came up with the Protocol to allow them to Brexit but also ensure that the Single Market was protected. In short they could not achieve the Brexit they wanted without the Protocol.

Now they want Brexit but don't want the Protocol.

It also seems they don't want the consequences of getting rid of the Protocol because when the EU outlined how they would respond Lord Frost pulled his horns in and kicked Art 16 down the road...again.