The Irish protocol.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149541#Comment_118149541

I am very confused by your answer

you say “No, we will do it on behalf of the other member states”

is that no or yes as to whether Eu will place checks at border??

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149586#Comment_118149586

They have been very clear that they are not putting checks at the border. Are you saying Eu will?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149641#Comment_118149641

I think there is an answer within all those qualifications, which os YES. Am I correct?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149943#Comment_118149943

Creation of ni did have consent. You mightn’t like the context of that consent but Dail voted to allow ni to decide. NI decided they did not want partition and stayed in uk. Roi partitioned, again with consent.

brexit was a referendum. Some would say the highest form of consent.

NIP was consented by uk and Eu. One of those parties now want to revisit because they believe the other is playing silly games.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149945#Comment_118149945

That’s not an unreasonable suggestion. Indeed I think it would have legs. Just a commitment from both sides to try and make it work on Irish Sea and a guarantee that if it worked then it would move to the international border within a set number of years.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150910#Comment_118150910

NI didn't have the consent of the nationalist community who were subjected to an apartheid sectarian statelet, now were they?

Nice to see you are now moving away from the consent argument. I agree with you that the Brits argument was always silly.

Unfortunately "playing silly games" is not a reason in international law for revisiting anything - it sounds like you are disappointed in the skills of your negotiators to put down in writing what you would like to have seen.

Furthermore I'm sure if a sufficiently detailed explanation of what the UK would consider "playing silly games" had been included in the text - with appropriate conditions and reciprocity and put in a format acceptable to the EU, the EU would have been happy to comply with those things which have now so wounded the sensitive feelings of the Brits.

Frankly from a European side, I'm surprised to learn that your side failed so spectacularly to write down what you wanted - and I'd certainly been led to believe it was a "great deal" - in fact an "oven ready deal".

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118151013#Comment_118151013

It will be great. OWC has huge benifits from it and I have no doubt we will end up in a good place re checks Ecj etc.

seems Eu didn’t completely think through art 16

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150885#Comment_118150885

Mine wasn't a complicated post!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150910#Comment_118150910

Consent requires understanding. People in reality did not know what they were voting for given that it was never defined for them by their government.

As for your claim that one side is playing silly games, I presume you are referring to the EU despite the reality being the UK the ones behaving like that. Nonetheless, what have the EU done that would be regarded as silly games? Do you disagree with them fulfilling their side of the agreement?

swampgas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118151057#Comment_118151057

Yeah, the last few years have really proven just how poorly prepared the EU side has been throughout, especially compared to the incredibly well organised, consistent and principled UK ...

/s

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150863#Comment_118150863

We are the EU downcow. We will be the implementers of border controls if it cmes to that

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118151057#Comment_118151057

I would have said that considering that the UK needs to fabricate a case, shop around for lawyers, proposes to introduce legislation to renege on the WA because A16 is insufficient, already introduced the IM bill to renege on the WA, and had its own internal assessment circulated during the last election specifying the nature of the changes, then it looks like it is the UK which is concerned about its legal case.

Especially given that the A16 actions are intended to be temporary only - as specified in annex 7.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149918#Comment_118149918

Yeah, that is (probably) what would happen eventually if the UK follows the road it is on all the way to the end.

As you say, with Customs on trucks on those main roads it would cover most trade in goods and smugglers/criminals would be limited to chancing vans or going via back roads somehow. I doubt much more will be expected of Ireland. A best effort to uphold obligations as a full member of the EU contingent on the constraints being worked under (the nature of the NI border region and hostile behaviour of UK govt. preventing other solutions to the problem). 

If it ever gets to this point (hopefully not...), UK economy will be under quite harsh trade restrictions with the EU. More importantly UK relations with the EU member states, especially with the 2 key "core" members (France/Germany) will be languishing in the toilet over the UK pushing forward with this effort to badly damage the EU post Brexit using Ireland/NI as a wedge.

There will be no trust or good will left there at all (it's very low now, but not zero or negative yet). A future UK government aiming for some sort of rapprochment with the EU (which will benefit Ireland and might help ease Customs controls) seems just as likely as them doubling down on the Russia/Turkey/Belarus type road.

UK is a democracy, not an autocracy like those other hostile states surrounding the EU and public opinion seems very divided on these fairly combative foreign policies the UK govt. is pursuing with the neighbours in the name of Brexit. Their supporters I think really love it and get quite excited and fired up by it all (nationalism/jingosim is some drug), the rest (majority of electorate) less so perhaps, especially if it ends up having very visible negative costs.

Snugbugrug28

I really don't think the UK has a great hand here. Ultimately they are staring down the barrel of no deal thinking the EU will never do it but if they do, the UK will have no trade deal, an economy in freefall and an enormous annual security bill in NI. They are the bad parent in the relationship and are relying on the integrity and responsibility of the good parent to complete their dastardly plan.

But if the EU got nasty...

Oops

https://twitter.com/redhistorian/status/1458816094601420802?s=20

Thought this was interesting.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/opinion/letters/our-place-in-the-union-is-not-for-sale-at-any-price-3453495

Never! Never! Never!

Unionism is so mired in paranoia, this guy is talking about it selling its soul to the devil. Can a movement that is this negative and paranoid continue much longer?

Btw people in the south should tune into the Newsletter, it's bonkers stuff.

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118151272#Comment_118151272

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118148701#Comment_118148701

If it does come to that then NI will be out of the single market. Careful what you wish for Unionists.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118152077#Comment_118152077

As I said earlier...it is one hell of a pickle political Unionism has walked themselves into.

skimpydoo

Why does the scam ad above appear on this Boards thread? It's an ad for scam Bitcoin software.

I've not seen ads in years, get an adblocker, it looks horrific!

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118152484#Comment_118152484

The ad's don't bother me too much. It's the fact that it's an ad that Broadsheet could be sued for having on their website and Leo might not be happy about it either.

Junkyard Tom

If faced with a choice of checks between Ireland and the rest of the EU, or checks at a British border dividing our country, then the latter will be the result. I could imagine approved roads for commercial traffic with mobile patrols returning non-compliant vehicles back into the northeast. This would however come with severe political consequences for power-sharing in the north and the effective collapse of the TCA with GB.

Presuming the above plays out, GB will suffer grinding economic friction on all goods entering the EU with resulting damage to its economy. Businesses will quickly pressure English MP's to choose between a border in Ireland or a border between its largest market in the EU, there will be only one outcome and it won't be good news for Downcow, Jim Allister, and tiny wee Jeff.

FrancieBrady

And on the attempt to make the Protocol a sectarian issue goes. Make no mistake what Allister is trying to do here. The northern and British media should be asked serious questions about why they platform minority opinions (and even opinion that has no mandate). Anyone would think that Allister is the prime political rep in the north, if you were to judge the exposure he gets.

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/tuv-protocol-dismantling-the-union-before-our-eyes-3455288

The reason these people cannot get a protest worth a damn going is PRECISELY because it is not a Green v Orange issue. Not to mention that the Protocol seems from polls to have the support of the majority.

CJhaughey

The problem is the two faced unionists that would rather see a pile of smoking ash than a functional and prosperous society.

I show you the example of this cretinous individual who claims to represent business interests in NI yet is actively campaigning to prevent their ability to access the SM

https://youtu.be/A3VhbYW3Rac

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118154842#Comment_118154842

To be fair, in Jim's case, as an MLA he does have a mandate. I might disagree with pretty much every opinion he shares, and if he told me it was raining I'd go and check myself before grabbing an umbrella.....but he does have a voter base who elected him to represent them.

Unlike some of those who championed Brexit, I believe Allister does actually represent the views of those who voted for him.

As for why he gets such a high level of exposure; I suspect he simply makes himself available more than pretty much any other MLA.....he'd show up at the opening of a cornershop if there was coverage of his ranting in a local newspaper.....and as they say, paper never refused ink.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118155093#Comment_118155093

Fionn...I clearly said , 'minority opinion AND opinion with no mandate'.

Allister definitely represents minority opinion, as does Hutchinson while Bryson represents no mandate at all.

Yet these 3 are among (if not the)the most prominent and platformed of Unionist opinion.

Are you saying that Allister and Bryson just 'turn up' at the BBC and get to go on air?

The fact is, somebody in the media is choosing to platform these people. That is the point.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118155156#Comment_118155156

You did say, 'minority and with no mandate' Francie, but you only mentioned Jim in your post so I assumed you were applying both descriptors to him.

Do Allister and Bryson just turn up at the BBC and get to go on the air? Absolutely not....it is a mixture of, 'get someone who kicks up a bit of controversy on to get the viewers up' combined with the path of least resistance; I can spend a few hours phoning around various political representatives offices.....or I can drop a ten second text over to Bryson and/or Allister and they'll be over as soon as they finish their tea.

I assume you're primarily referring to the Nolan Show here rather than the broader BBC, by the way. To be clear, I'm not defending the massively overrepresentative platform that Nolan gives those two in particular (a large part of the reason that I haven't tuned into Nolan in years, nor will I in the future), but again.....if the platform is there, Jim owes it to his constituents to take advantage of it.

Now excuse me while I go and lie down for defending him....

Furze99

It's concerning to see people here show almost total disregard for the economy and jobs of citizens in this Republic. That the prize of a border poll and supposed UI is worth causing serious damage to the cost of living, economy and jobs of citizens here. There's a very good reason why the Irish government has been going to great lengths to avoid a 'no deal' Brexit. Sure, our reliance on the UK market and our supply chains of goods are not quite as tied to the UK as previous decades but they're still very important and we're the ones who will be screwed in a no deal / hard border scenario.

swampgas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118155290#Comment_118155290

It's not disregard, IMO, but just being realistic: if the UK insist on destroying the GFA and pushing a hard border, then we (Ireland) as part of the EU need to be united in our response to that. That may require some short term pain, especially for businesses dependent on UK trade, but that can't be wished away because we don't like it.

As for us being screwed, we will be screwed much, much more if we try appeasing the UK. You may not like what's coming down the track if the UK forces the issue (nobody does), but wailing about how "screwed" we all will be doesn't help much.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118155290#Comment_118155290

What are you suggesting they do? The Irish Government along with the EU havebeen doing everything to avoid a hard border on the island. It is the UK egged on by some unionists that are seeking to remove the only solution for NI to avoid a hard Brexit.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118155239#Comment_118155239

I posted an example of it in the print media and referenced the BBC.

I understand the excuse you are making, but is it a valid one? In my opinion it isn't and that is why I said questions need to be asked of these editors and content pickers.

The media's job is to challenge opinion from whence it came without bias. It also has (certainly national broadcasters) a duty to fairly represent all opinion, not give undue attention to one or two opinions.