The Irish protocol.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173145#Comment_118173145

Lets try and keep this at least marginally grounded in reality. The political significance and symbolism of orange has been established for over 200 years, and was not something imposed on unionists but adopted by them by choice. You suggest that orange is more associated with Anglicanism than with Presbyterianism, but I don't think this is quite right; it was adopted because of William of Orange, who was of course a Calvinist, and it initially signified support for the religious privileges conferred on Protestantism (not just Anglicanism), later transmuting into support for the political establishment that maintained those privileges, and continuing as an expression of support for that establishment even after those privileges had been largely dismantled. Orangism has always welcomed Anglicans and Dissenters alike; the only religious requirement for joining the Orange order is that you be a Protestant, but all Protestant denomination are equally welcome. But it was distinctively Ulster Protestantism; while there were lodges in the other three provinces, they were never very numerous. And it's not a coincidence that outside Ireland, the largest Orange movement is in Scotland.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173157#Comment_118173157

you are included in the union flag with the blue so you should embrace that.

That's your statement. You either thought the blue represented Ireland or you lied.

So you accept that Maebee didnt say Orange represented Northern Ireland. Good we cleared that up. What colour would you say is most associated with Unionists in Northern Ireland?

ArmaniJeanss

It does raise an interesting question about a future theoretical UI and the flag.

Like do we just 'tell' the previously Unionist people that orange represents them and the flag stays as it is.

Or do we let them decide what colour or symbol they wish to represent them on the flag? So we potentially end up with Green, White and Dark Blue, or Green, White and a Union Jack? I don't like either of those options, but on the other hand assigning them orange without input is also not good.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/108920551#Comment_108920551

Maybe an honest analysis of what checks are currently happening where and how these could be developed on all 4 sites with real sensitivity to those who feel their cultures and identity are deeply untwined in these borders ie unionists and nationalists on this island. Rather than the current we only care about nationalists which inevitably creates a we only care about unionists attitude on other side.

It has been very badly handled by both sides

I think a referendum up in north would now go basically orange and green which was not the case.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/108920655#Comment_108920655

I’m not going to get drawn into personalising this. That is usually the action taken by someone who is beginning to realise that an issue isn’t just as black and white as they thought it was and know they aren’t good at getting their head around anything that is not simple black and white (or orange and green).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/109442827#Comment_109442827

I think the only concern for a border poll is that it seems once the first one is called then there will be one automatically every 7 years. This would just be very destabilising and keep us in orange and green politics indefinitely.

I don’t believe there is anyone nationalists or unionist who thinks a border poll has a snowball in hells chance of a UI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173145#Comment_118173145

Orange is absolutely not the colour that represents unionists.

I wouldn't say "absolutely not". It seems fairly intertwined based on your own post history. Like orange is certainly closer to representing unionists than pink.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173145#Comment_118173145

Nasty and insulting to all the irish soldiers who died in ww1 and ww2.also,the irish have been fighting facism in our own country for years

mikefromcork

How ye have spent 6 months arguing with someone who uses the laughing/crying emoji is beyond me.

XsApollo

I was just gonna post the same thing, some resolve all of ye have.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173544#Comment_118173544

That is nothing compared to blinding. That man could fit about 17 emoji into a post with 15 words, half of them being democracy.

He has 634 posts with the :eek: emoji alone.

I miss that guy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173157#Comment_118173157

downcow, of all your irrational rants, this one really is up there. The tricolour was invented in 1848 and "intended to symbolise the inclusion and hoped-for union between Roman Catholics (symbolised by the green colour) and Protestants (symbolised by the orange colour)". Its pretty black and white tbh. Or green and orange. This was common knowledge even in the pre-internet days back in the 80s, and is why a lot of Unionists will name the tricolour "green white and yellow", to deny the existence of orange.

Quote from wikipedia.

Miniegg

Downcow - where I fall down understanding Unionism and the NIP is the Nip seems to be working well for Northern businesses and appears to give NI unbelievable potential in being a bridge both into the EU and the Uk.

 If it is maintained does it make you less British or could it be argued that your Britishness is secured by the fact that Britain is in your blood, and on a practical level you still have the same representation in parliament etc. 

NI was in the single market for the last 30 years, is it only because England is pushing to be out that you would be less British if you dont follow them 100%? 

Does Unionism allow you to to set your own agenda of what is or isn't British, or does it require you to follow others lead, even if it leads you over a cliff? Hypothetical cliff of course, I can't read the future.

I know you seem are happy to keep the benefits others in the UK don't have (which is pragmatic to me), but it seems others want no divergence even when to their detriment. Just trying to understand the hardline Unionist views.

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173400#Comment_118173400

Just on the border poll, my understanding is that after such a poll, at a minimum, there cannot be another for seven years, not that there would automatically be another in 7 years.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173145#Comment_118173145

So here we have a post where the author claims to be "warm towards the orange order" and then a few lines later accuses others of "prejudice"

Very disappointing,

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173267#Comment_118173267

You are just not getting my point. I said blue to do to maebee exactly what she was doing to me. If I had said red then I would not be imposing the colour.

as for colours associated with unionism in ni. Very clearly RW&B and green. Nationalists are infatuated about orange. You will really struggle to find anything to do with unionism in the colour orange. I am surprised you are implying that.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173428#Comment_118173428

I picked out, just a couple of pages back, those from roi who fought in the wars, for special commendation lwf

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118174062#Comment_118174062

Tbh I don’t understand them either but if you listen carefully you will here things said like a new protocol negotiated etc. So I guess it is a hardline negotiating position - and that makes sense. We will arrive somewhere in the middle.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118174613#Comment_118174613

That’s you prejudice that is causing you to be disappointed.

i disagree with lots about the OO but I also see lots good about it. Simple

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118174185#Comment_118174185

This is the correct view. At least7 yrs must pass between polls.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118174062#Comment_118174062

A 'hard border' will affect all, not just nationalists.

We in Dublin ae standing up for all the people regardless of identity or politics.

Resist the attempts by those with an agenda to secarianise the issue. It isn't Green and Orange, it is about what is best for all and in that context, the UK solution of a trade border on the Irish Sea was deemed the only solution.

Remove the belligerent noise about abstract issues and the Protocol has majority support and isn't causing tremendous issues that those belligerents would have you believe. Just ask them to give examples.....noise subsides.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118174719#Comment_118174719

Are you saying that there might be a new protocol?

No. There will not as you have been previously - unless the UK come up with a better solution that works for all.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118174787#Comment_118174787

Yup, seems that once again after all the bluster they are sitting down making adjustments and easements under the flexibilities built into the Protocol. Neither it, or the Irish Sea border are going anywhere.

J Mysterio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118174669#Comment_118174669

Bizarre. If it wasnt for William of Orange, you might not be in Northern Ireland. Unionism celebrate the Battle of the Boyne each and every year. The Orange Order, with their oranges sashes, are absolutely synonymous with Unionism.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118174727#Comment_118174727

Correct. I prejudged you to be reasonable and was disappointed.

Here's a direct quote from that wonderful cesspit of bigotry themselves ... members should "scrupulously avoid countenancing (by his presence or otherwise) any act or ceremony of Roman Catholic or other non-Reformed Worship; he should, by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy, encroachments, and the extension of their power"

You see "lots good" about the Orange Order?

Troll or bigot?

Junkyard Tom

DC knows that the Orange Order is toxic for the north of Ireland he dreams of, that's why he'll speak out of both sides of his mouth on it. Unionists know they need to disassociate 'NI' from the Orange Order, and all the other toxic sectarian aspects of unionist culture and history, because the future of continuing UK jurisdiction in Ireland is in hands of those who are not from Unionist/Protestant/Orange backgrounds.

One of the reasons DC puts so much stock in his 'beloved Northern Ireland' football team and longs for a seperate, agreed-upon, anthem/flag for the north is that it gives him a glimpse of what it's like to belong to a country/nation, of which the north is neither.

This too is why the more staunch unionist despises the Irish Rugby team, and indeed almost anything that demonstrates to unionists and 'others' from the north that they are welcome as part of the Irish nation. Unionists like DC consider the Irish Rugby team an existential threat to the existence of their wee 'country', because it is.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118174719#Comment_118174719

Thanks, interesting you think it's a bargaining position and not genuine agitation to enact a hard border. If so it's probably a smart, albeit risky, strategy to play on nationalist\ Irish\ EU fears that Unionism really would be willing to let NI go to **** to prove their "dominance". That fear is very real. I hope you are right.

I'd be interested to know that as a moderate Unionist - if you had two choices, leave things as they are with all the potential the NIP has for NI as a country, yet be divergent from the rest of the UK - or enact a hard border and fall in line with the UK, but have to live with all the trouble that could bring to day to day life, what would you pick? 

Would picking the current NIP option mean you are selling out your heritage, or do you get to decide what is British or not and not just go with Englands way? No hassle if the q is too personal!

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118174841#Comment_118174841

You are confusing unionism with orangism. A majority of unionists would be horrified by what you are saying.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177179#Comment_118177179

So you are saying now 'majority' of Unionists would be horrified to be connected to William Of Orange?

Can you link to any expressing this view?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118175965#Comment_118175965

You are quoting stuff written hundreds of years ago when the members main focus was resisting Romans Catholicisms attempts at wiping them out. It’s hardly surprising. It’s not that long since a sporting body on this island had rules that, to all intent and purpose, banned unionists.

I detest some of the old language of the OO and practically every other ancient organisation. The biggest Protestant church in the north of which I am a loose member says the the pope is the anti-Christ and doesn’t allow gay people as members. I know another big church on the island that doesn’t allow women in leadership. It’s all crap but the organisations are still doing much good work.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118176178#Comment_118176178

The Irish rugby team does quite the opposite of what you say. In fact any unionist who thinks there is a chance of being treated as an equal in a Ui should be sent down to a few rugby internationals and forced to stand for the roi anthem, nod at the republic flag and applaud the republic president. They should also have a tricolour forced around their shoulders and a bit of green white and gold paint stuck on their cheeks.

I would make this experience compulsory for young unionists and I would encourage more southern players to refuse to sing Ireland’s call, just to demonstrate to the you g unionists where some republicans heads are at

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177256#Comment_118177256

Tom Elliott and Danny Kennedy were disciplined for attending a RC Mass a wet week ago, by an Order that is funded by the public purse.

'Written hundreds of years ago', me barney.