The Irish protocol.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118174762#Comment_118174762

I totally understand. Just trying to get a different perspective on the whole thing. To me it is a no brainer, keep the NIP, use NIs special status to attract FDI, help local business, make jobs and a positive future for all. It all sounds to good to be true but in my mind the sky is the limit in this type of deal. So what if there are a few checks, an opportunity this big has to have downsides.

Unionisms fear that the NIP is bringing them closer to Ireland seems strange to me - their situation will change v little from where it has been for the last 30 years. The difference now is that England has decided to move the goal posts and **** it all up for the North.

If England does drive the UK off a cliff, which it seems to be doing, at least NI could be somewhat shielded in the current situation. Unionists could be proud they put NI first in such a scenario.

But I guess I don't understand Unionism - which is why I'm asking if it does all go south, are Unionists obligated to follow England and the rest of the UK off the cliff, or is there autonomy in what is British or not?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118176178#Comment_118176178

The question is fine but it’s a bit like offering me a choice between Ireland having the weather of the Sahara or the Antarctic

but if they were the only choices then I am with the Uk and I’ll take whatever pain that brings to enjoy the benifits and diversity of the Uk.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177140#Comment_118177140

Those are interesting questions...

However no one in NI has control over where this ends up really at the moment.

They can make desires/concerns/unhappiness known to the UK govt. and to the EU...that's it.

The former is clearly following its own strategy that is about wider relationship with the EU and has little to do with NI or anyone living there. You can see that with the way DUP were dropped like a hot potato when it suited wider GB politics to rush their Brexit over the line. Now DUP and anti protocol voices from NI are all the flavour of the month with UK govt. and their pet media (BBC, Tory papers) again because Boris Johnson/Frost badly want shot of this formerly "great" agreement.

I think the EU has its own core interests and will mainly care about/be interested in NI in so far as Ireland/Irish govt. does (and Ireland of course has interests, separate from NI too). All their desired outcomes are not necessarily what NI/people living there prefer. It is definitely not what hardline NI unionists want but is probably more reflective of the overall public opinion than what seems like UK govt. position right now (i.e. NIP must go in the bin).

That last doesn't seem to be a "negotiating postion" for the UK as such going on actions over the year (so far), they know what they want and won't be happy till they get it by hook or by crook.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177220#Comment_118177220

Not at all what I am saying. Indeed everyone should be thanking King Billy for standing up for democracy over total authority of the king.

here is what I was saying most unionists would find bemusing “Unionism celebrate the Battle of the Boyne each and every year. The Orange Order, with their oranges sashes, are absolutely synonymous with Unionism.”

unionism is a very broad church and it doesn’t en masse celebrate orangism. But I hope most on here realise that and realise the game that is being played by many posters

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177347#Comment_118177347

So now they would not be horrified to be associated with William Of Orange.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177307#Comment_118177307

You might be telling porkies again. What discipline did they receive? Were they expelled or fined or maybe even hung and quartered?

Junkyard Tom

The Orange Order still has a strong grip on all of political Unionism not to mention hate-monger Ian Paisley's Free Presbyterian sect being the largest religious denomination in the biggest Unionist political party. The DUP is full of Orangemen too with over a third in its ranks counted as members.

One gauge of support for the Orange Order was the view of DUP members on parading rights. A clear majority, 58%, think the Order should be able to march wherever it likes.

Professor Jonathan Tonge

There is nothing even remotely resembling this anachronistic bullshit in the rest of Europe never mind Ireland.

It really is not normal.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177314#Comment_118177314

Fair question miniegg. But can I ask you to think again about this statement you make “So what if there are a few checks,”. Could you consider moving them checks to the ni/roi border? Sure so what about a few checks?

im interested in your view in this?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177404#Comment_118177404

The widow of a PSNI RC officer publicly lambasted the OO for their antiquated laws. Are you going to spend pages now pretending you didn't know it happened? The newly appointed leader of the OO tried to soften the face of the OO by saying he'd like to see the rule changed....we're still waiting. He said 'anyone could propose a change in the rules'...but the cat must have got his tongue as they say, because he nor anybody else has proposed it, or maybe his tongue was forked to begin with?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177444#Comment_118177444

I’d give you about 3/10 for your attempt to deflect from my accusation that you are telling porkies. Posters can read back and see that you were caught with your pants down

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177468#Comment_118177468

They were disciplined, in that they were called to account for themselves under a regime that you say no longer exists.

Just because they were not punished (probably because of the public uproar) doesn't mean the rule and the archaic sectarian laws are not still there.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177297#Comment_118177297

It's such a traumatising experience they come down in their thousands every time Ireland plays. It's not just the Rugby though, they get to experience decent infrastructure, sit in a gleaming new stadium, walk the streets of the Capital without worrying about wandering into the 'wrong' area, they experience a vibrant, confident, welcoming culture that they can be part of in the future without fear.

And people wonder why the DUP and others ache for their hard border to be reestablished?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177620#Comment_118177620

The attempts to diminish what will be the way a UI will work - mutual respect - and has led to the success of an all Ireland structure in rugby is gas. The flow of people both ways (from north to south and vice versa) to watch rugby is a testament to what can be done.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177297#Comment_118177297

Who is forcing anyone to stand for or sing Amhran na Bhfiann? Next match watch the anthems and count how many Irish players aren't signing. Would you also say people are forced to stand for foreign teams anthems? Like for example when England played in croke Park for the first time and after all the anticipation all you heard was respectful silence from the Irish fans.

I do like how you conveniently left out that Amhran na Bhfiann is only played for home games along with Ireland's call and at away games only Ireland's call is played...... Maybe it's because you don't know what your talking about like the fact at all games in Landsdowne there are 3 flags flown, the tricolor, the irish rugby flag and the flag of ulster. When they play in Northern Ireland the tricolor is not flown and when they play away only the Irish Rugby flag is flown.

Your posts have become beyond pathetic with your victim complex based on some imaginary boogy man sectarian country where Protestants and Unionists are handcuffed and forced to sing our anthem at gunpoint before they can take their seats at a rugby game.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177526#Comment_118177526

Francie catch yourself on. You said they were disciplined. Now you are accepting they were not.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177256#Comment_118177256

A sporting organisation banned unionists?

That's disgraceful.

Name and shame please. (With a link obviously. I'd hate to think you just made it up)

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177620#Comment_118177620

Dublin = utopia

enjoy it. You are privileged. If only all those Irish nationalist in the north could see it, then there would be a majority for a Ui in the morning.

I am not good at maths, but something just doesn’t add up.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118178028#Comment_118178028

Depends what you call disciplining, being called to account for yourself under a sectarian rule is seeking to discipline somebody.

Do you think pedantry is going to hide the fact that this is still a sectarian organisation?

I am also witnessing the bizarre fact that you are defending/downplaying institutionalised publicly funded sectarianism by this organisation while trying to diminish the work that has been done in rugby on this island.

Utterly bizarre and inexcusable to be honest.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177974#Comment_118177974

Try dealing with reality.

irfu represents (in theory) two countries. They fly the fag of only one. They play the anthem of only one and the head of state of only one turns up.

I could go on but I couldn’t be bothered.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177974#Comment_118177974

You are being pathetic with your inaccuracies. You say only the irfu flag is flown away. What did they fly at the World Cup?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118178066#Comment_118178066

It represents and is called Ireland and the thosands of unionists who watch and play it are happy with that. NI doesn't have a flag.

Like Unionist politicians with the Protocol you will misrepresent the size of any problem with the above.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118178039#Comment_118178039

Rule 21. I guess you knew that. And before you twist, I said that to all intent and purpose they banned unionists.

“Members of the British armed forces or police shall not be eligible for membership of the Association.

A member of the Association participating in dances, or similar entertainment, promoted by or under the patronage of such bodies, shall incur suspension of at least three months.”

I have never meet a unionist who has not attended functions under the patronage of the ruc and I don’t know a unionist who did not have close family in the ruc and/or British army. So it was pretty sweeping But then you know that already

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118178106#Comment_118178106

Francie you know fine well that the official flag on the Uk of gb & ni is the union flag. Why do you say things you know to be entirely untrue. Pants down again.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118178076#Comment_118178076

The tricolor and flag of ulster due to an agreement on a unique protocol for world cups between the Irfu and ulster branch I believe.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118178129#Comment_118178129

The team is Ireland, made up of the clubs of Ireland in an agreed sporting organisation. The UJ has nothing to do with representing that, and is the adopted flag of a portion of those who live in the north, it would be an anomally.

Why would you try to pull apart something that is working fine and giving pleasure to 100's of thousands because of what is basically insecurity?

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177322#Comment_118177322

But with the NIP you still get the benefits of the UK, and of the Eu. You can have both (not sure what you mean about the diversity of the UK)

Also, interesting you describe things staying as they are (i.e SM access with a divergence from the rest of the UK) as akin to some extreme inhospitable environment where survival is next to impossible! You have been living in the single market for the last 30 years, it's a miracle you have all made it out alive 😉

Just because certain Tory politicians in England (who I'm sure you agree have very little understanding of ROI/ NI) moved the goalposts behind your back - you would be willing to accept a hard border, a probable return to violence, army, etc etc, so that you can follow Boris Johnson and his crowd?

Does Unionism demand blindly following England, or does it allow the possibility to lead or take risks?

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177425#Comment_118177425

From what I understand that is impossible to maintain or police without a hard border, so absolutely most definitely not.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118178108#Comment_118178108

So the rule that was abolished 20 years ago DIDN'T ban unionists but you believe that "to all intent and purpose" it did?

OK.

The reason you believe this is not because you've got an irrational hatred of the GAA it's because you've never met a unionist who has not attended an RUC function and neither do you know one who has not got close family in the RUC or British army.

Your persistence time after time in equating an openly bigoted cesspit of an organisation like the orange order with an all-inclusive sporting one like the gaa severely undermines any opinion you have on issues like the protocol.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118178129#Comment_118178129

And you know fine well that the irish tricolour is not green white and gold

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118178153#Comment_118178153

So your earlier statement was incorrect that the tricolour is only flown at home. So you have now admitted that even away from home irfu have flown the flag of one country and not the other. I have no idea why you think this is ok?