The Irish protocol.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189723#Comment_118189723

Thanks. I haven’t time to respond to it all now, but briefly on loyaliststalk statement. I have just reread it and accept how you could take from it that they want a border on the island. But I do think you are misunderstanding this. I don’t hear a single loyalist saying that there should be a border on the island. My reading of this statement is very different.

the natural place for any customs checks are on the international border. That’s just a fact they are stating. The point they are making is that Leo feared that Eu might insist on that and instead of protecting all communities in ni, he ran off to Eu with photos of bombs. He could have (ironically) taken a ‘United island’ approach and said we want a solution that balances feelings and identities and encouraged other approaches.

but I say again I see how you can interpret what they are saying as wanting Irish checks. I hope you can see how they can interpret Leo’s pictures of bombs differently than you?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189793#Comment_118189793

Nonsense. You’ve clipped my words again. We can all play around with quotes - personally I couldn’t be bothered.

this is tiresome.

for some unionists orange is a very important colour, for other unionists orange is something they want nothing to do with.

I think you will struggle to find a unionist for whom rw&b or green are not highly significant.

as I said I think you will struggle to find significant use of orange colour by any significant unionist party as they clearly no what you don’t ie I would be counterproductive and lose votes as it is not a broad unionist colour

I am losing the will to live on this little discussion. I hope you finally get it?

FrancieBrady

Funny that it is very clear to others that the colours associated with Unionism are RW&B and Orange.

CAIN: Symbols - Unionist and Loyalist (ulster.ac.uk)

The impression might also have to do with the fact that every single PM of Northern Ireland before the office was gotten rid of was a member of the UUP and The OO.

Here is an old UUP crest and the new one. Forgive me if I am wrong here...but I'm not seeing any evidence to lead me to the conclusion that the two colours associated with Unionism are 'very clearly RW&B and green'

In fact I think it would be easier to make the case that there was a concerted effort in the logo designer's head to get away from the associations with Orange.

Is it perhaps possible that Unionists like yourself are at last trying to distance themselves from the OO...that's a good thing BTW not something I would criticise you for to be perfectly honest.

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189654#Comment_118189654

You're making another false equivalence. The identity "Loyalist" is not equivalent of the identity "Irish". To have equivalence, you should have said...

If Theresa May has said the Republicans in the ghettos of Belfast.

And to be honest, i don't think there'd be nearly the same fuss made, had TM actually said something like that. Ultimately ghettos of Belfast is a British creation and responsibility.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118187345#Comment_118187345

I dont have any prejudice on this issue im delighted for Ireland to play together as one Island it makes us a stronger team and anything that can break down the walls of sectarianism in my book is another big win.

Indeed you are right now ive looked into it GSTQ is not the official English anthem as they like NI don't have one. But once again that's not really the problem you've got is it? Your argument about anthems still isn't comparable as for the thousandth time NI doesnt have an official anthem so theres no song to play.

Also ive no clue what you mean by "SS" really baffled by what your inferring there.

On Berties comments i think he nailed it in one, the majority of Unionists who are against the NIP have no clue that its about trade and the massive benefits its currently bring and can bring in the future and honestly couldn't care less as this is all about identity for them. It begs the question though what did they think was going to happen when they fell in lock step behind the tories and voted for brexit.

It all comes back to unionists history of constantly being used and then abused by the tories and never learning from history. How unionists still cannot understand this after the multiple warnings from everywhere and even one of their own via Edward Carsons quote I will never understand. I cannot get the analogy out of my head that unionism is the dog who gets frequently beaten and abused by its master(the tories) only to come running back the next day wagging its tail and asking to play again.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189881#Comment_118189881

This is the sort of stuff through at me that sincere poster would call out.

francie puts up a uup logo to demonstrate that rw&b are not the main colours associated with unionism but that orange is. I honestly don’t know if he is on a wind up or if he is deluded.

the logo is faded to the point the rw&b is harder to recognise and the yellow has faded toward orange. Is this for real as evidence francie? I think it has backfired massively

you put up a link to symbols by cain The only colour/symbol that they can’t show in real but have to just put a blank square is orange That should tell you something. Then flick over to nationalist symbols and the include the text IRA and Brits Out Surely you can do better than this?

but thanks for making my case for me

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190193#Comment_118190193

Again you lie. I DID NOT say that Orange was the 'main' colour associated with Unionism downcow. I merely made the the statement that there most definitely an association with it, historically.

I'm delighted you are putting distance between Unionism and orange and the OO.

I have advocated getting rid of the OO altogether if they refuse to reform their sectarian ways.

BTW Yellow is a primary colour, it can never fade to 'orange' as orange is a mixture of 2 primaries - yellow and red. I.E there is no red in yellow.

I suspect whoever carried out the crest above was intentionally using orange, even though the crest should be yellow and red.

I like how you just ignore the facts - other peoples association - the relationship between Unionism and the OO in history.

Here is what consultants employed by the executive to come up with a 'neutral flag' suggested. Clear again what the 'associations' are, even if it is an awful flag that appealed to no-one and even if you continue to protest that the association isn't real.

votecounts

Fair play to Bertie for what he said, does anyone really believe that the thugs hijacking buses and organising protests have actually read the protocol, no I would be surprised if most of them could even read. I also fully expect to see a death threat to Bertie spray painted on some wall, probably spelt wrong too. As for the Ghetto comment, maybe the Unionist leadership should concentrate on getting these young people educated and maybe not have them protesting at the drop a hat, maybe show some feckin leadership for a change.

ArmaniJeanss

Would people generally be content with the concept of a different flag in a UI? I know from talking to my friends that's it not a negotiable point and that the flag must stay, which to me seems more like they want a takeover of NI rather than a unification.

Personally I think 'imposing' a flag and telling the unionists that this orange bit represents them whether they like it or not seems a bit patronising. Even some token change - to the shading or the orientation, or making the white 10% rather than 33%, or the white being a diagonal cross - would seem sensible to me but suspect I'd be in a small minority.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190041#Comment_118190041

Well if you have no prejudice on the matter and you love people coming together the a permanent British lions team playing in all comps should shut you.

good to hear you believe unionists have not been favoured by the last 100 years by the brits.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190333#Comment_118190333

Francie just admit your embarrassment. An orange uup crest 😂

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190588#Comment_118190588

I would expect flags and anthems to be on the table after a successful UI referendum. That doesn't necessarily mean they change though.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190544#Comment_118190544

The disparity wondering through east Belfast ‘ the ghetto’ and wealthy well heeled Dublin is stark. Clearly our young people can’t afford spice and lots of your people can. I never saw somebody spiced out or sleeping on the streets of east Belfast so maybe you should be sorting that out.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190588#Comment_118190588

I appreciate your thinking but you are demonstrating why a United ireland will not happen, if ever, for generations

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189547#Comment_118189547

I haven't seen what he said myself but saying that it stupid.

I can understand his frustration but that's how you'd vent it down in the pub with a friend, he should apologise absolutely

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190707#Comment_118190707

I have linked to plenty of examples of the association being made, and why it is made.

Of course you will zero in on something you think proves your case, it's your modus operandi.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190588#Comment_118190588

Said it loads of times here, I have no issue whatsoever with a flag and anthem change.

FrancieBrady

And it has to be said again. No re-negotiation of the Protocol...no probs using the flexibilities and easements available via the Protocol.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/1119/1261904-sefcovic-brexit/

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189547#Comment_118189547

He should not have said that. He's a long time out of politics now and I don't think his statements or opinions will have much effect on anything. It's kind of sad but expected that you search for a loyalist statement about it + praise it as "explaining it well directly from the ‘thick’ loyalists".

Maybe it explains the Loyalist point of view of the situation, but that is a different thing from reality and is fairly selective. For example there is nothing about the "B" word or how UK govt. is going about severing ties with the EU - the f-cking huge elephant(s) in the room. Or fact that Unionists (and I'd imagine Loyalists in particular) supported that which must not be named strongly and their favourite party while in a kingmaker position worked to engineer hardest "B" possible.

Looking wider than loyalists, definitely don't think Unionist electorate in NI are "thick". As said before I believe they supported that which must not be named basically in hopes of kicking the table over, f-cking their neighbours who they are obviously quite sore at still over many issues and throwing a giant dig in at "the South". Now maybe they did that thinking Leave vote was unlikely to be carried anyway (very possible IMO) and they'd have satisfaction of a nasty and bitter (but safe) tantrum in privacy of the ballot box, but that is still sad and depressing + wouldn't fill anyone with hope for future of NI IMO.

I was just thinking about the pages + pages of minutae about details of flags and symbology and songs etc etc, maybe a preview of what life would/could be like in a United Ireland. I'm not so eager for it at all, certainly not any time soon or suddenly/abruptly via some sort of shock (like "B" could lead to).

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190699#Comment_118190699

Awww heres you not knowing the history of things again, see the roots of the IRFU and playing as one island predates partition and is the only sport which continued without stopping after it which is why its allowed, there's no scope or reason for a British team competing in a way like you suggest. Your insistence on it stopping or being a bad thing for everyone involved just baffles me and can only based in your own prejudice(which bizarrely you keep trying to project onto me) and need to see your own sectarianist viewpoints justified.

In regards to your second statement you know exactly that's not what i said or meant but if you need to deflect like that to help ignore the realities of how unionism is treated by the UK conservative party then be my guest as my original post implied you arent the first unionist willingly pulling blinders over your own eyes as to how you are treated by them and you unfortunately wont be the last.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190731#Comment_118190731

Realistically do the majority in the north particularly want either the current union or an all island Ireland ?

I assume most just want to get along with lives and do well for themselves ?

And in a peaceful situation that's most likely to happen ..

A 32 county Ireland was a comfortably far off prospect for both sides pre-brexit -

It just wasn't a huge deal ... Deal with it later meanwhile the labels of republican and unionist were becoming less relevant to younger generations -

And the northern Ireland protocol is basically trying to bring back that pre-brexit status quo - if northern Ireland gets preferential treatment from both the eu - and uk then why the hell would the general public rock the boat ... Everyone wins ... ( Including those of us in the south who'd be very slow to agree to merge with a fractured northern Ireland that was thrown at us .. against the will of many of its residents ...

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190719#Comment_118190719

If you ever have any further questions about whether you have a tendency to post in a disingenuous manner, please just refer back to this post, you absolute spoofer.

No drug problem in the heart of East Belfast? I've heard it all now!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189810#Comment_118189810

You haven't heard a single Loyalist say there should be a border on the island of Ireland.....yet not so long ago, you were posting tweets from Jamie Bryson....who hasn't quit whinging about putting the border, 'where it belongs' for f*cking months.

Amazing that as usual, everyone you speak with happens to 100% support your view....

J Mysterio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190041#Comment_118190041

He is saying SS as in 'soldiers song'... more properly Amhrain na bhFiann.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191399#Comment_118191399

Ohhh wow again with the bigoted denigration of the Irish language and our anthem, they cant even be bothered abbreviating it in Irish.

J Mysterio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190706#Comment_118190706

All these things would need to be 'agreed', or at least set out, before a UI referendum.

I'm not very keen on changing the flag mind you.

I can understand the argument for changing the anthem, but not crazy about that either.

I think those questions might require a referendum in Ireland in and of themselves, with different options given.

J Mysterio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190731#Comment_118190731

If the NI protocol is brought down by the UK government, a UI will almost certainly happen in my lifetime.

To maintain the union, Unionists best bet is to row in behind it. The fact they cannot see that is mind boggling.

Lets not forget that this particular Brexit would not have happened were it not for the DUP.

J Mysterio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190707#Comment_118190707

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_5ARA5Cfsdw

😂

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190706#Comment_118190706

So you are looking to repeat brexit ie let’s have the vote and then tell people afterwards what they have voted for?

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191575#Comment_118191575

So your saying you would support unionist parties actively engaging in discussions about how to implement a UI right now?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191043#Comment_118191043

I agree with this. But if corse no harm in us working to improve the deal further