The Irish protocol.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209175#Comment_118209175

Surely the monolith was the Irish/European one voting to remain. You can even swap that around to Euopean/Irish.

It so happens that a large catholic vote is there because catholics are more likely to be Irish.

Don't feed the sectarianising of the issue!

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209257#Comment_118209257

You just couldn't help yourself with the last underhanded remark. I await the faux sincerity comment as usual.

Peregrinus

But what Leo does is of negligible significance here compared with what Johnson, Frost and other UK figures do, since they have legal power and authority and responsibility in NI that Leo does not. The problem is not that Leo is failing to consider the views of the people from Mars; it's that the UK government is failing to consider the views of the people from Venus even though it is governing them, exercising authority over them and has a responsibility to them in ways which find no parallel in the relationship between Leo and NI Protestants. The UK government has the capacity to do serious damage to NI in ways that Leo never could.

Attempts to govern Ireland, or any part of it, as though it were basically a rainier version of Great Britain have always proved disastrous. They are the reason why the union ultimately failed in most of Ireland and, to the extent that the union is under threat in NI today, they are the reason for that too.

The very reasons why you think it was wrong of Leo not to consider the sensibilities of NI Protestants when warning against hard Brexit apply a hundred-fold to the far, far more grievous error of imposing hard Brexit on NI. As long as the Unionist leadership fails to condemn the latter, any condemnation of the former will be seen - at best - as selective and hypocritical.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209264#Comment_118209264

I'm uncomfortable with the terminology myself, for the reason you point out. But the figures I have seen broke down the votes of people identifying as "Protestant/Catholic" by age, sex, class, etc, not the votes of people identifying as "unionist/nationalist" or as "British/Irish".

In the NI context these are highly overlapping categories, of course, so I'm sure a breakdown of the vote on unionist/nationalist or British/Irish lines would show a very similar picture. But the only breakdown I've seen chose the Protestant/Catholic divide.

(I suspect that this choice was made because fewer people answer "neither of the above" to a Protestant/Catholic question than do to a unionist/nationalist or British/Irish question, so using this particular criterion will result in an analysis that covers more of the population. But that's just a guess on my part.)

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209345#Comment_118209345

If we are going to end sectarianism then we have to stop doing it.

The question asked in the referendum was an EU-stay or go one.

Consider the results in that context.

Junkyard Tom

It really does again say to me that are problem is nationalists are from Venus and unionists are from Mars.

The problem for you Martians is that you live in Venus amongst the Venutions.

The British can do whatever the hell they like in Britain, here they better think about the Irish first.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209420#Comment_118209420

There is a difference between ending sectarianism and understanding it.

Understanding the depth of monolithic thinking in either community is very important.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210094#Comment_118210094

Nobody went to the polling booth thinking I'm Catholic I must vote a certain way.

Distinct attempt by belligerent unionists and others to sectarianise Brexit. Should stop right now.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210606#Comment_118210606

Nobody is saying that people went to the polling booth thinking I'm Catholic I must vote a certain way. Nevertheless, groupthink does happen. That is the point.

FrancieBrady

Of course it does...thats what a politician is trying to infuence in order to win a vote.

Brexit was a yes/no ref.

One group here wished to stay in the EU with the rest of Ireland while the other wanted to leave with the Uk.

Religion wasnt a factor

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211161#Comment_118211161

Nevertheless, nationalists voted en bloc, while the rest of the population in the UK did not. That exposes a level of groupthink and an inability to think beyond a certain defined parameter that should be worrying.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211332#Comment_118211332

Irish people and those who wanted to stay in the EU voted against Brexit.

Like Jamie Bryson, Jim Allister you are (and have been) trying to make it a green/orange catholic/protestant issue.

It simply wasn't. It was simple. Stay in the EU or leave with the UK.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211332#Comment_118211332

Such a shallow surface level view, Blanch.....and as usual landing in two footed with the heavy support for whatever position the Loyalists are taking today.

That those of an Irish persuasion value their connection with Ireland and the EU more than those of a British persuasion is quite obvious. You're putting the cart before the horse with regards to groupthink.

You're assuming that those people voted that way because they're of a Nationalist identity, whereas they're of a Nationalist identity because they value that Irish connection, not the other way round.

If for some bizarre reason there was a vote tomorrow on whether or not Ireland should leave the EU and hand the keys back to the UK, would you say it was evidence of groupthink among the Irish if the vast majority of people voted to reject it, but a greater percentage of British expats voted for it? Or would you just think it is evidence that it is a sh*te idea?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211598#Comment_118211598

To put it a different way, and I don't think you can argue with this, it shows how much of a divide still exists up in the North, and that the strength of that divide shows that the aspiration of the GFA to united the people of this island is further away than ever, and that talk of a border poll will only increase that division.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211332#Comment_118211332

Why is it "worrying"? I kind of find that a surprising idea (that more NI nationalists were not persuaded as to merits of Brexit indicates a problem). Is it a problem/negative (groupthink) every time public opinion of some matter reaches a consensus?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211658#Comment_118211658

The absence of critical, reflective and independent thinking in any political decision is always a worry.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211637#Comment_118211637

What has happened here is many more than nationalists have decided to stay with Ireland and the EU by consequence and you(partitionists) and belligerent Unionism/Loyalist see that as a threat to your ideological position.

That is the problem, that is why groups who think that way are burning buses and generally stomping their feet and trying to sectarianise the issue.

There is NO issue bar insecurity and suprematist leanings revealing themselves.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211804#Comment_118211804

We have changed our constitution to aspire to uniting the people of the island, rather than the territory of this island (some welcome postnationalist thinking) and that greater divide up North is sad to see.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211684#Comment_118211684

It just doesn't follow. There isn't even association there really. A consenus does not imply a lack of thought or reflection.

Division of opinion does not imply that thought and reflection or deep consideration has taken place. It could even result from the opposite of thought and reflection (gut driven, emotions, biases etc. affecting decisions).

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211684#Comment_118211684

Why do you think there's an absence of any of these things? I could easily say that the Nationalist/Catholic community up north were completely informed of the economic lunacy of Brexit, so en masse they voted against it.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211637#Comment_118211637

Amazing that some people can conclude that something supports their pre-existing notions no matter how tenuous indeed, Blanch.

Would only be slightly surprised if you claimed the weather forecast as strong evidence that a border poll shouldn't be called.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211848#Comment_118211848

The only 'extra' division there is, is within Unionism. That cohort that has finally seen that their future is not necessarily hitched to Britain. That 'cohort' that you love to see as the solution to your nightmare - Northern Irelanders - are ditching their unionism in frustration, anger and disillusionment.

I think we have seen the last of the Unionist bloc vote having any power to achieve anything.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211848#Comment_118211848

It is sad alright but that's "Brexit" for you, which your comments seemed to be obliquely supporting (by criticising NI Nationalists as block-voting, unreflective group-thinkers because they went and rejected Brexit so wholeheartedly vs Unionists).

It's basically right wing nationalist poison and has been exposed as such by what has happened since 2016, it creates divisions and celebrates them. I mean that is the whole point of it (or at least the "hard" version of it as implemented by UK govt. since then vs other kinds plausibly on sale during their referendum and the many other reasons people may have voted for it). A total rejection of the big trans-national (i.e. postnationalist) border-effacing project in Europe (the EU) in favour of re-empowering the Nation state. Rejecting cooperation in favour of struggle + competition, and I think eventually conflict of some sort.

Look at what it is doing to UK-French relations and indeed UK-Irish relations.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118212276#Comment_118212276

No, I am not implicitly supporting Brexit.

Wanting evidence of diversity of thinking for the health of society does not equate with supporting the minority opinion.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118212389#Comment_118212389

You are trying to exclude Irish votes because horror of horrors it might weaken partition as a side effect and bring the two partitioned parts back together inside the EU.

Junkyard Tom

Our countrymen/women in the north voted almost exactly against Brexit in the same numbers as support the EU in the rest of Ireland. There is nothing to see here but desperation at the thought of the Irish nation expressing its unity on the subject of EU membership.

Unionists are out of step on this one.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118212414#Comment_118212414

Say what?????

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118212507#Comment_118212507

You are demeaning the Irish/EU vote because you are scared stiff of what it might mean.

You have been attempting to portray it as sectarian and fermented by those with ulterior motives from the get go. Which echoes once again belligerent Unionism/Loyalism of Jamie Bryson and Jim Allister.

Irish people voted for what they see as the best future for them...no other reason, as we in the south would too. But you are pointing fingers at them for doing that.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118212389#Comment_118212389

So you'd be disappointed if a party espousing National Socialism was roundly rejected in the polls here as it would demonstrate that we were an unhealthy society lacking in diversity of opinion?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118212644#Comment_118212644

Has to be the 'right' kind of diversity don't you know Fionn. Like 'terrorists', there's good'uns and bad wans.