The Irish protocol.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703191#Comment_117703191

Nitpick: Yeats was born in Sandymount.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703194#Comment_117703194

😂.

Fionn1952

Have we not spent long enough telling people what they are or are not?

As per the GFA, Downcow is British or Irish or both, that is Downcow's decision and no amount of snide, 'gotcha' attempts will change that.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702131#Comment_117702131

Is there anything in particular or is it the whole thing that was unclear to you?

We can take baby steps if you want? Your dad was from Donegal, yes?

---

Loath as I am to have this thread continue of topic, but I'm over the DC "I'm not sectarian, you are" nonsense.

Any idea what you would like to replace the NIP with? What's so awful about the protocol?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703114#Comment_117703114

Meh. Things are a bit more complicated that this.

Is someone born in England called "English" because they were born in England? Or is England so called because it's where English people are found?

Originally, the latter. England is so called because it was settled by the Angles. The Angles are so called because they came from Anglia, a peninsula on the Danish/German border. Let's not ask ourselves why Anglia was so called.

Of course, England is only called "England" in English. In Irish it's called Sasana, because it was settled by Saxons. Were the Saxons so called because they came from Saxony, or was Saxony so called because it was full of Saxons? The latter, as it happens.

This isn't just trivia. We can see people as identified by the land they come from, or land as identified by the people that occupy it. Political nationalism, as developed in the 19th century, emphasises the link between the people (or nation) and the land (or country) and holds that the land which is the home of a particular nation ought to become a state by which that nation governs itself. The starting point is the nation; the community identified by a shared inheritance of language, culture, tradition, belief, etc. Because the Irish nation exists there ought to be an Irish state in Ireland, the land associated with the Irish nation; likewise for the German nation, the Italian nation, the Polish nation, the Hungarian nation, the Greek nation, etc. And, such is the appeal of that idea, all these states have come into being and exist today; 200 years ago, none of them existed. And the point of all this is that, for a nationalist, the nation precedes the state. What matters about Ireland is that it's full of Irish people.

So, while most Irish people are in fact born in Ireland, that isn't necessary. What makes you Irish is your connections by blood, birth, language, culture, etc with other Irish people so — as downcow points out — Eamon de Valera can be born in New York, and yet be Irish.

But this works both ways. Downcow can be born not in Britain, and yet be British by virtue of his connections with other British people.

And, if downcow's identity as British is ever really threatened, it won't be by Irish nationalists insisting that (a) by virtue of his birth on the Isle of Saints and Scholars he is Irish and (b) if he is Irish he cannot be British. It will be by other British people who don't feel as connected to him as he feels to them. The connections that make up national identity have to be shared; they have to be mutual. If the day comes when English, Scottish and Welsh people don't regard downcow and his community as British (or see them as "not really British") that's a much bigger problem for downcow than any amount of posturing by dogmatic Irish nationalists.

This isn't a novel point, or one unique to British people from NI. We're all familiar with Irish-Americans who loudly insist on their Irishness when, from our point of view, they are not really Irish at all. But that's not such a loaded issue as the British identity of downcow and his community. For them, Britishness is an existential issue. And while they've grown accustomed to existential threats from Irish nationalism, an existential threat from British nationalism is a new and very frightening experience. Hence all the angst about the NI Protocol.

Whatcar212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703173#Comment_117703173

So what your saying is, lets not have a discussion on a discussion board?

(bear in mind I am familiar with downcow's position from other threads, Hate is not an inappropriate word to use here)

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702936#Comment_117702936

For fear of being accused of 'ducking' the question.

maybe you care to clarify what your definition of an ‘Irishman’ is??

Somebody who is born and raised on the island of Ireland. All of those people can identify how they like after that. Their 'identity' is either chosen for them (by parents etc) or by themselves later.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703039#Comment_117703039

Your parents chose your identity at birth, not you. New born babies, it may surprise you, have never heard of the British or the Irish for that matter.

Suckler

The constant one-upmanship and 'identity' nonsense is indicative of NI as a whole. What really matters is being drowned out by irrelevant stupidity.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703241#Comment_117703241

Nitpic: Jack Butler Yeats, renowned in his own right as one of Ireland’s finest painters and brother of the poet.

and now declared an Englishman by some posters here

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703925#Comment_117703925

Posters who are not insecure about it downcow.

Nobody is denying you your right to identify just as we accept that Yeats, regardless of where he was born, identified very clearly as an Irishman.

Please try and grasp it. Tiresome at this stage for everyone.

Esel

Funny how West Brits only exist down here. Only problem is - none of them identify as such.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117701582#Comment_117701582

the british army arrived in 1969 .... its incredible you can't see what you are saying

An Claidheamh

Downcow is another deluded unionist

Nothing more cringe than seeing a Nordie with a thick Irish accent begging English people to see him as British

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704032#Comment_117704032

They identify themselves well enough.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702687#Comment_117702687

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703114#Comment_117703114

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702767#Comment_117702767

These attempts to deny identity to British people are incredible. There are many people born in England who are Irish, some of them played for our soccer team.

From where does this insecurity come that people feel they have to tell every British unionist that they are really Irish?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703093#Comment_117703093

I would ask the original inhabitants of Australia and the Americas what they think of the labels that you have given those places. Labels are often attached by outsiders looking in and do not always reflect how those being labelled feel.

The purpose of the label "Northern Irish" and the reason it is growing is to distinguish it from both "Irish" and "British", hence anyone or anything Northern Irish is not necessarily Irish.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705101#Comment_117705101

Every single person from England who plays for Ireland has to first 'declare for Ireland', I.E. identify as Irish or prove a connection to Ireland.

That is another example of you shooting both yourself and downcow in the foot.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703124#Comment_117703124

Being born and raised in Ireland makes you Irish. Everyone born and raised on the island is Irish. Northern Irish is Irish too as is a Dubliner. St. Patrick the patron Saint of the Irish is the patron Saint of Everyone in the Republic and the North as they are both with in Ireland and Irish. It is a dangerous apartheid in the North that tries to split people. Everyone from the North is a Britsh citizen and Irish at the same time although thier apartheid upbringing might not except this.

Citzenship is man made and can change like it did two years ago when British citizens suddenly were no longer European citizens. What happens when the UK falls apart and suddenly people in the North are no longer British citizens? To be britsh will just mean you are from the island of Britain so nobody from the North can claim that either. But people from Ireland will/can always be referred to as Irish despite what sovereign jurisdiction it is in or if it is in more than one like today.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705141#Comment_117705141

Not true. They are Irish by birthright.

Seth Brundle

Can we please move on from what makes one Irish, British or whatever and get back to the NIP or is everyone now happy with the NIP?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705147#Comment_117705147

Do they have to 'declare for Ireland' or not blanch?

In order to take up your birthright you HAVE TO officially declare it.

Nobody is denying identity...what is happening is that people are denying realities.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705142#Comment_117705142

That is nineteenth century thinking, a classic example of exclusionary nationalism. Being born and raised in Ireland does not make you Irish, anymore than being born and raised a boy makes you of the male gender.

Classic sectarianism also included in the post with the reference to Saint Patrick. Particularly offensive to me as I am Irish and atheist and recognise no patron saint.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705167#Comment_117705167

They are born Irish, what more do they have to do? That is their birthright, that is their entitlement, who are you to put obstacles in their way to being Irish, to declare them some sort of second-class Irish person that has to declare their Irishness.

They only have to do what you have to do - apply for a passport.

Podge_irl

For a country that not that long ago held and passed a referendum explicitly stating that not everyone born here is Irish it seems a bit odd to go around demanding that those born in Northern Ireland admit their Irishness.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705186#Comment_117705186

So are Unionists...born with an Irish birthright...unless I am missing some decree.

They 'choose' not to officially recognise that birthright...which is their right and identify as British. Vice versa for nationalists.

I think you are getting confused with all the spinning.

Reading this thread demonstrates why the EU and a neutral, technical and pragmatic European second identity makes so much sense as a way of solving, or at least cooling, these arguments.

There is no solution to Northern Ireland other than preservation of its status quo. That's what the protocol tries to do and largely would achieve if people would stop trying to distort it or bend it to their own unionist or nationalist agendas and by nationalist I mean in this case largely the English tabloid variety.

It’s way too soon to begin moving towards a United Ireland. The peace process only really bedded in during the 1990s and early 2000s

It’s also ludicrous and totally unhelpful to start this unionist and Tory British nationalism agenda of trying to isolate NI from the Republic.

It’s a special set of circumstances and a very dysfunctional place. It’s an utter disgrace that anyone is playing politics with it for nationalistic reasons from the outside. Northern Ireland has enough problems to deal with without adding English tabloid driven jingoism.

My view of it is the EU understands what the nature of the peace process is and comprehends the national identity issues, in a way that the Tories don’t, because the EU is essentially a peace process of a similar type itself.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705172#Comment_117705172

If a person is factually born and raised in place called x. And the factual demonym of a person from x is y. Then you can factually refer to the person as y. No law makes that illegal.

To say St.Patrick is the patron Saint of the Irish is sectarianism? Is it also sectarianism to say St George is the patron Saint of the English or St James is the patron Saint of the spainish or is it just St. Patrick sectarianism? If anything it is one thing that both Catholics and Prodesents in Ireland both share so is actually anything but sectarianism.

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705438#Comment_117705438

How about if they claim to be British?

Tyrone212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702025#Comment_117702025

Nice trolling haha. They were there before the planters came over. Why did all the planters come over and steal their land? Occupied as you say yourself haha