The Irish protocol.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707014#Comment_117707014

It's always themun's. Never look inward. Again, indicative of the reality of NI.

Pages of incessant bickering about b0llox all. No real issues addressed and it allows 'some' who have avoided answering direct questions to hide in the bluster. It's text book NI "problem solving".

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707660#Comment_117707660

So NOT the newborn baby. But the registrar filling in a form with the parents info. I won't need to ask how the registrar gets info, will I downcow?

*Shite downcow, I was hoping for a vid of you writing at 1 day old. The old British spirit and all that old chap!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707685#Comment_117707685

Signs are Bonnie, they are backing away from any change at a rate of knots. No destabilising march in Dublin, no protests that anyone is taking any notice of.

It'll all calm down now and we will eatbour popcorn as shelves empty in Britain and we''ll see what happens next.

FrancieBrady

More rambling incoherent nonsense being platformed by the Newsletter. This writer actually states 'Devolution, it was claimed, gave us control and a say on our future'.

Unionism doesn't currently know which way up it is. One minute it's...'we are following the rest of the UK' then it is 'devolution should give us control'.

Lost in cul de sac's of it's own making.

NI Protocol is disastrous, yet there is still no serious unionist plan | Belfast News Letter

mariab21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707334#Comment_117707334

Thats from 3 years ago, its disgusting imo

Anything recently or have the people on the streets such as the community activists that basicy stopped the trouble in Belfast turning nasty and basically just make unionists look like scum?

squeekyduck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707284#Comment_117707284

It must be fine, their bellies are full with the good EU sausage!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707284#Comment_117707284

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707058#Comment_117707058

Looks like it. I tried to discuss it and was told to 'wise up'.

Thread has turned into something like the worst of Twitter.

Dazler97

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117706862#Comment_117706862

Look i don't mean to come across as a dush but I've already been picked on up north for being Irish, called names and bottles thrown at me and no I didn't start it, I was minding my own business

Dazler97

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707167#Comment_117707167

He hates the 12th July along with his family, I was up here 3 weeks ago for the 1st 12th July and I hated it too

Dazler97

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707221#Comment_117707221

Someone asked how was his family dealing with living up here and what I was supposed to say was, his family has had to move twice due to IRA threats, his grandads legs got blown up in the omagh bombings as well, he said its because his dad was a copper at the time but I don't know

Tyrone212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707348#Comment_117707348

Lol. A man who supports the orange order talking about a hate fest. Is there anything more bigoted than the orange order. You can't even join it as a Protestant if you're married to a Catholic. Let that sink in.

The 12th bombfires are hate fests all over the place, its endemic. Irish flags burned , irish figures, anything catholic you name it will be up in flames whilst celebrating "your wee culture"

Let's face it, the DUP in government with the tories opened up the British public to how warped the mindset is. Dinosaur denying creationists who hate absolutely everything and anything that isn't white protestant. They're embarrassed by yous and 99% know absolutely nothing about yous and would consider you just as Irish.

Thats why yous try to over compensate on the how "British" yous are when it reality they couldn't give two shiites about yous. Unrequited love. Just a drain on their resources financially and a absolute headache for them. Stuck in a time warp, knowing you'll never get back to the good old days of a majority and an apartheid state.

Unionism is dying a slow and painful death with each passing day all the while becoming more desperate,mad and incoherent. You're testament to that.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708277#Comment_117708277

well maybe he should turn his angst toward the Irish. . After all it was them blew his grandad legs off and it was because of them he had to move house.

I think we all know which community his grandad would have felt safe in.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708267#Comment_117708267

Is it any great surprise that you take flack, if you run around with a boyfriend who brags about his townsfolk getting beat up simply because they are unionist.

I don’t have a great deal of sympathy for you.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708271#Comment_117708271

Understandable hes not a fan of the 12th if he hates unionists enough to brag about them being beaten up. Pity he doesn’t go and live with you in the south. He would be happier there as most unionists felt a need to move north, therefore he’ll not need to look at them

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708277#Comment_117708277

It all adds up for me now. I have seen this time and again.

often catholics who had a parent involved in the security forces or even English or Protestant, turn out the most openly bitter republicans. They do this to survive at school etc as they were seen as somehow suspect so they constantly prove their credentials by being the most bitter against Protestants.

this is a phenomenon that happens on both sides eg Michael stone

Peregrinus

Lads, lads — can we bring it back to the NIP?

We know there are overlapping and sometimes competing national identities claimed or acknowledged by various folk in NI. One of the main points of the GFA is to recognise, affirm and validate that.

And we know there are sometime antagonisms between people claiming those different identities. We really don’t need that demonstrated quite so repetitively in this thread. The point is made, thanks.

Does this issue of national identities have any relevance to the NIP? Yes, I think it does. And I think it might be a good idea to try and get back to that.

Question for downcow, if he will bear with me. Two questions, actually:

First, would it be fair to say that he experiences the NIP as an attack on/inconsistent with/undermining or denying or devaluing of his British identity?

And, secondly, if so, is this attack different in any way that matters to him from the kind of attack he recognises when, e.g., people bandy around slogans like “Brits out”?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705163#Comment_117705163

Lots great about the protocol, but I guess you know that. Once we get it sorted it will be the biggest block to a UI vote ever.

but you ask what the issues are.

quite simply it’s treating the people of NI differently than than the rest of the Uk, without the consent of the people. This is most evident in checks at Larne. I am very confident the bad bits will be sorted.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-protocol-red-tape-may-stop-280-medicines-coming-to-northern-ireland-40716800.html

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708538#Comment_117708538

Your argument of "consent" immediately falls down given the people of NI voted to Remain.

Suckler

@downcow

"Quite simply it's treating the people of NI differently than the rest of the UK"

Funny that wasn't an issue when UK abortion & gay marriage rights were on the table. Talking out of both sides of your mouth.

And let's not forget, your cohort never had an issue with treating people within NI very differently to other within NI and the rest of the UK. Gerrymandering and denial of Civil Rights....or "treating people differently".

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708534#Comment_117708534

Thanks

i would say it is inconsistent with my place as a resident of the Uk.

I doesn’t change or threaten my identity.

I feel trust is massively damaged between unionists and Irish gov / SDLP/ Sinn Fein / etc by the talking up of violence if anyone dares to put any additional checks on the international border. I don’t want any further check there either and have no problem with any further (required) checks at Larne. We have some sensible ones around animal health etc and if a few more are necessary to help EU feel safe from big bad Britain then that’s fine.

but don’t have your pm insensitively hold up pictures from 50 years ago of IRA killings with the purpose of strengthening his hand in negotiations. That was discusting and needs an apology.

and don’t try to block vaccines and medicines moving around my country

and don’t require my daughter to pay £100s to get her dog vaccinated for rabies when travelling within the rabies free Uk for fear it may infect dogs in the eu which is not entirely rabies free

stop letting yourselves be used be eu to disrupt the internal workings of the Uk

that’s a few to start with but I think you’ll see it’s not rocket science to fix but it has became all heat and no light

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708574#Comment_117708574

"Your" PM voluntarily signed a legally binding international treaty whereby he agreed to all of those mechanisms being put in place.

(1) Why is your beef with the EU and not "your" PM?

(2) Why is it you want to be treated as British but not be bound by the bits of British law (i.e. the NIP, marriage, abortion) that you don't like?

downcow

Ps. How would you feel if our politicians were holding up photos of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and advising strongly against any checks on the Irish Sea.

do you not get it? How desperately offensive and provocative this action was?

basically he was saying, “step out of line boys and you will get a bit more of this medicine”

I would love a nationalist on here to accept how offensive, dangerous and nasty that was and even apologise on his behalf.

when he done that he took the genie out of the bottle and if this kicks off there will be dead Irishmen not indirectly linked to that provocative action. I know people who believe that action makes loyalist threats and attacks legitimate. An apology from the Irish gov would transform the situation

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708617#Comment_117708617

The language you use and the constant diversions are extremely telling of your inability to address the key points raised.

Again; its always someone else.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708617#Comment_117708617

Let's deal with the above in order:

First: your argument of "consent" immediately falls down given the people of NI voted to Remain.

Does Brexit, or does Brexit not, require the consent of the people of NI?

If yes, how is Brexit valid given the people of NI voted to Remain, i.e. they did not consent?

If no, then why is the NIP (which is Brexit for all intents and purposes) different in this regard in that it does require consent in your mind?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708642#Comment_117708642

So there is one poster who doesn’t (or doesn’t want to) get it.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708665#Comment_117708665

Ad infinitum; it's some one else "who doesn't get it"

Address the points raised.

downcow

1) My beef is also with the British PM. I thought that would be obvious. That’s legitimate to disagree with your PM (I wish some of you would break ranks with yours on the photos)

2) I do want to be bound by British law on the stuff you mention (bar the nip). I completely disagree with the dup on these issues but that’s the Way things work thanks to gfa. Time to renegotiate elements of it.

you can interpret as you wish, but it’s my view that changes that affect our place in the Uk require cross community consent according to gfa. So on those grounds I oppose the nip

I also reserve the right to oppose British government on anything I disagree with. I trust you would protect that right in your country?

Peregrinus

But you're still a resident of the UK; there's no change there.

And the UK has always had different laws applying in its different parts, so it's hard to argue that NI being subject to different laws from England is in any way inconsistent with people in NI being residents of the UK.

As regards the talking up of the threat of violence, who's doing more damage here; the people who predict violence if the border is hardened, or the people who actually make decisions that will harden the border? Are people who think that hardening the border will make a return to violence more likely - a highly defensible belief, in my view - supposed to shut up about it, while others go about hardening the border?

You yourself predicted loyalist violence in Dublin in this very thread; was your behaviour then as reprehensible as the behaviour you condemn here?

The other things you mention seem to be to be consequences not so much of the NIP as of Brexit. There has been no attempt to block vaccines moving around the UK; there was a (brief) threat to ban the export of vaccines from the EU to the UK. That, obviously, would have affected NI just as badly, or worse, if Brexit had proceeded without the protocol. The rabies certificate is required now for dogs crossing the sea border to GB but, without the protocol, it would be required for dogs crossing the land border to IRl which, lets be honest, is probably a lot more dogs. The NIP diminishes the need for rabies certification, rather than increasing it.

As for us "letting ourselves be used by EU to disrupt the internal workings of the UK" — well, as you say yourself, it has become all heat and light. This one is definitely heat, not light.

The EU has no agenda to disrupt the internal working of the UK; it has always favoured UK-wide Brexit terms which would avoid a hard border. And that would be Ireland's very strong preference also. It's the UK which wouldn't have that; the UK which rejected the first WA and insisted on the renegotiation which resulted to the NIP. And, for the benefit of the slow learners, even after agreeing, signing and ratifying the protocol, the UK has made further unforced unilateral decisions which magnify the differences between GB and NI, and so maximise the impact of the protocol. Not even the most one-eyed Brexit supporter can possibly argue that Boris Johnson is being used by the EU to disrupt the internal working of the UK.

Which is really what lies behind my question about whether you feel your British identity is under attack. I made the point earlier that the connections of national identity have to be mutual. A nation is a community. You're British if you think you're British, and if British people generally think you're British. (Same goes for any other national identity.) And it seems to me that this is where your British identity (or resident-of-the-UK status, if you prefer) is threatened. Because the UK government clearly doesn't think that the NIP-related differences between GB and NI are unacceptable; if it did, it wouldn't have pushed for them and, having got them, it wouldn't have acted to magnify them. So something that you see as of central importance in connecting you to the wider British community is not seen in that light by the wider British community or, at least, by their elected government. It's of no importance to them. Or, at best, it's of lesser importance to them than the British nationalist project that is Brexit.

And that's worrying. Because it means that, as far as British nationalism is concerned, your connection to Britain is dispensable. And if even British nationalist don't see you as British - well, that's not great, is it?

downcow

I am curious, is there anyone here who would have any problem with jeffry Donaldson or Boris taking pictures of the Dublin bombings to EU leaders and saying that this is what happens when you try to break up the Uk and that Irish Sea checks are perceived by many as breaking up the union ?

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708719#Comment_117708719

What are you on about?

Can you at least attempt to refute anything of what Peregrinus said?