The Irish protocol.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718712#Comment_117718712

downcow will pretend some more not to read this stuff and claim he has found a loophole nobody else has spotted and that he can roam the EU unfettered clutching his British passport. 😁

The reality is, the benefits he gets in the north from EU funding and schemes and being in the single market have been achieved for him by the Dublin government and in order to be able to work and move freely in the EU he just has to swallow hard and apply for the passport he is entitled to, because he is a citizen of Ireland.

downcow

I won’t have to swallow hard. I am a pragmatist. If it is necessary for me to have an Irish passport in my pocket to bring at times it will benifit me and use a British passport on an everyday basis then that’s 100%.

it’s funny it flips the position of the last 100 years where Irish people kept a Uk passport to get benifits of the Uk.

I guess that makes me a plastic Irish lol.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718675#Comment_117718675

Very patronising language. I am probably not just as learned at nationality law as you.

I was just asking if it is possible to evidence your citizenship without a passport. You are saying no (I think). You may well be correct. Anyone else know a way?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719312#Comment_117719312

No, it makes you officially Irish which you are entitled to be because you are automatically a citizen once born on the island.

You are encouraged to do it. We are happy to welcome you and give you continued access to the EU.

You cannot enter the Schengen area without an EU (or Schengen non-EU) passport from next year, without completing ETIAS, similar to the way you are precleared for a visa waiver entering the US, Canada or Australia. That system launches in January 2022 and becomes obligatory later next year.

It's been in development since 2011, long before Brexit was even a word and applies to anyone entering the Schengen Area who is entitled to a visa waiver. It will not apply to Irish or any EU or Schengen area passport holder as they're intra-EU/Schengen with full EU rights.

If you seek employment or long term residency (beyond 90 days), you'll need an EU or EEA passport or national ID card. For many other issues you'll need an EU country's social security number.

Having a right to Irish or any other EU citizenship isn't relevant. They'll need an EU (or EEA) passport or national ID card.

Presenting a British one would have as much use as presenting an US or Canadian or Brazilian passport. If you're entitled to another citizenship, you'd need the passport.

They're not going to process your Irish citizenship claim at the immigration desk in Paris CDG or Amsterdam Schiphol or Malaga Airport any more than they would if you were born in Kerry and presented a Japanese passport.

mariab21

https://twitter.com/Planet_Belfast/status/1423760254832107520?s=19

Massive numbers at today's protest in Belfast

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720103#Comment_117720103

There is nearly as many on the banner. 😁

An Claidheamh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117716999#Comment_117716999

Are these nationalist and South American "friends" people only you see?

An Claidheamh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117716600#Comment_117716600

A few years ago, Team GB were asked by unionists to include NI by calling it 'Team UK.'

A reasonable suggestion one one would think, however, unionists were told Ukraine used 'UK'.

It was pointed put that Ukraine was actually 'UKR' ...

the British Olympic Council then told the unionists to just f@#k off

Turns out the Team GB brand was not worth changing to pretend to include an enclave that actually sends Irish athletes to represent Team Ireland

British athletics have dropped 'NI' from its title

Unionists have no connection to the British olympic team, Downcow is just a headbanger who has to pretend that London Afro-Caribbean sprinters, who probably don't realise the North is supposedly in the UK, represent him

Quite pathetic really

You'll find the northern media will focus entirely on Team Ireland, as they are from Ireland

Team Ireland includes all of Ireland

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720185#Comment_117720185

Absolute nonsense from start to finish and racist to top it off.

I posted the official name of the team and Northern Ireland is the only region gets specifically named.

mots sad when people get so angry and envious that they just make up nonsense.

I will follow no competitors whichever team they represent. In most cases it is based on whether their sport has a Uk or all island governing body.

mots pathetic to tell me that the team whose official title includes my regions name, uses my national anthem and flag and is the team that my national broadcaster follows, is nothing to do with me. Pretty sad hole to have buried yourself in.

I honestly don’t have a clue how many golds Ireland have but I enjoy every hold that my team get.

as for you pretty sad racism, it doesn’t matter a jot to me or the vast majority of team gb supporters whether a winner is Afro-Caribbean, white Anglo Saxon or even of Irish decent. Your comment is uncalled for and you should withdraw it.

this is still our favourite who we are desperately proud of. A beautiful person I have had the pleasure of meeting a few times https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Peters_(athlete)

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720158#Comment_117720158

No idea what you mean? Do you think most South Americans would like to be referred to as Americans ?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720351#Comment_117720351

It only took a missed penalty or two to see the deep ingrained racism in Britain downcow. You are trying to gild a rather tarnished lily there I'm afraid.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720373#Comment_117720373

Francie the world is full of it sadly. Someone like you who loves the GAA should be careful about throwing stones. We can be appalled at anonymous racism but it would be even better to keep it of this forum.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720402#Comment_117720402

Not me making claims about the vast majority of GB supporters downcow.

jamule

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720103#Comment_117720103

25% decrease in number, down 1 from the 4 the last time, unless the other one is in the jax

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720103#Comment_117720103

Down with this sort of thing!

Careful now!

:)

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720103#Comment_117720103

This really is silly. I am not sure who is the silliest, the protesters or their posters on here.

who are these people. They have all the main unionist leaders on there banner as collaborators. That should tell you they are mainstream anti-protocol activists.

but sure if it allows you to think there is no opposition then that will help you relax

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720351#Comment_117720351

The branding of the team is Great Britain or team GB. I have yet to see anywhere it's official name in the media. Any medals table it is Great Britain. So defacto the team is team Great Britain. This must annoy athletes from the North. In previous Olympics I recall it being GB&NI in the media but this has stopped. The argument not to use the UK, because places like the channel Isles are not in the UK either is weak. It would be more inclusive to the 1.8 million of NI to call it team UK.

But before you have referred to NI as being your country and that you are proud of it. I infer from that that you will be proud of it's people too. The most famous person from the North and fellow countyman, Rory Mcllroy, would you not support him even if he representing team Ireland? or do you only support people who identify as British from NI?

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719312#Comment_117719312

Even the Irish people you've coerced into remaining in the UK do not carry British passports

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722269#Comment_117722269

I’m not into golf but of course I support Rory.

A great call from you to raise Rory. Here is a northern Irish catholic explaining very clearly what many posters on here are pretending not to understand. He is demonstrating what I have tried to explain about sport that is organised on a all island basis. Rory is a catholic from ni who regularly refers to being northern Irish. When he has a choice he plays under the ni flag as his chosen symbol.

He has been seen several times being handed and Irish flag after wining and immediately passes it away or drops it. He sees the ni flag as his flag.

Here is exactly what this catholic, born and reared on this island, said about his British identity and yet playing in an all island organised sport

“What makes it such an awful position to be in is I have grown up my whole life playing for Ireland under the Golfing Union of Ireland umbrella,” McIlroy said.

“But the fact is, I’ve always felt more British than Irish.”

“Maybe it was the way I was brought up, I don’t know, but I have always felt more of a connection with the UK than with Ireland. And so I have to weigh that up against the fact that I’ve always played for Ireland and so it is tough.”

here is the flag and identity that Rory really feels at home in.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02363/rory-mcilroy_2363558b.jpg

I think this should at least allow some here to admit that my identity is not some ultra prod position. I’ll not hold my breath.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722366#Comment_117722366

Not the GB brand or flag when it comes to it though. He is Irish and NI is not a country in the Olympics so he plays for Ireland.

Which is what you are being asked to do in relation to the EU and the Protocol - PLAY for Ireland not Britain.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722429#Comment_117722429

This sums up why discussion with francie is pointless. Someone (not me) cites Rory. I could give you endless stuff where he shows that, as a catholic from ni, he is extremely close to me in his thinking and identity.

rory describes his attachment to and respect for golfing Ireland and the dilema that causes as he feels British not Irish.

francie clearly realises this but goes of on making reasons up and now tells Rory that he is also Irish, no matter what he says himself.

I have tried to discuss things over time with you Francie.

I have learnt lots on this forum about diversity and the Irish question . Sometimes I have openly admitted that learning on here with thanks or apologies, sometimes I haven’t .

you appear to be someone who knows it all about identity and culture and has nothing to learn (probably the very reason you are so naive on the topic). You just tell the rest of us what to believe and brow beat people like me with nonsense when you are clearly wrong.

ironically I would probably be more open about personal doubts and questions on these topics if it wasn’t for your style and attitude.

that all said, I am going to try to be more open going forward and ignore your jibes. I am not going to even respond to you when you post stuff that all of us know is nonsense that you are posting because you find it easier to attack than to learn.

I am NOT going to choose my words so carefully in the future so as I don’t present you with something you can misinterpret and use in every future argument you are losing eg the comment about remaining peaceful.

so here’s to a knew approach from me which those, like myself, who want to learn from the other will benefit from.

francie and his few colleagues can continue with the snide nonsense.

anyhow as for Rory. Me and him would have no problem designing a NI that we could both sign up to. Unfortunately there are lots on either side have a long way to travel to get there and some have not even started the journey as they think either status quo or UI are inevitable and believe it will show weakness to embrace NI

downcow

On that basis back to the Nip.

I suppose to be more open about it.

I worry that the current checks and difficulties between gb and ni and the inevitable divergence of trade and services that would cause, may cause the next generation to feel less part of the Uk. More importantly I think it may give republicans a falsely based new impetuous to push for convincing us all that we are Irish and should support uniting the island. I think this will be very destabilising and could lead to the breakout of significant violence.

our two main communities (I know that is a very clumsy description) have demonstrated how they can quickly move from seeming reasonably agreeable to having massive chasms between us (drumcree for example)

I am confident this will all shake out and common sense will prevail.

brexit needs to have some level of integrity ie tying UK to future, yet to be developed, EU rules is not tenable eg veterinary. But common sense would dictate our dogs don’t need rabies jabs - unless of course either jurisdiction develops rabies.

Peregrinus

"Brexit needs some level of integrity"

Your problem is that the Brexit project lacks integrity, and those leading it have no integrity at all. You're quite right that Brexit is being pursued in a way that is damaging to the union and threatening to unionists, and that this tends to undermine the GFA and destablise NI. You are completely wrong, thoughy, in blaming EU/IRL for this. It is wholly driven by the British government, who chose Brexit, chose a hard Brexit, saw that NI was an impediment to the acheivement of their hard Brexit, negotiated and signed the NI protocol to try and sideline NI from the Glorious Destiny of Brexit Britain, and then made further choices to maximise the adverse impact of the Protocol on NI. You have zero chance of successfully resisting this if you refuse to recognise that it is even happening.

I completely get your annoyance that rabies controls have been reintroduced, and that NI has been left on the opposite side of the "rabies border" from GB. But both of these are the result of choices freely and unilaterally made by the UK which, if anything, the EU resisted. There was an agreement whereby the UK's rabies-free status was recognised in the EU; the UK unilaterally withdrew from it. Replacement agreements have been offered; the UK for ideological reasons does not want to make them.

And your suggestion that "EU rules are not tenable" is plainly wrong; they worked perfectly well for 48 years. The only thing that prevents an agreement based on EU rules is the unilateral, unconstrained, freely-made decision of the UK government that Brexit means hard Brexit - a decision knowingly made contrary to the wishes and interests of Northern Ireland.

Face facts, downcow — you are dispensable. Given the choice between hard Brexit and keeping NI socially and economically integrated with GB, the UK government repeatedly chooses hard Brexit, and the UK Parliament backs those choices. Do not blame the EU or IRL for this.

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720103#Comment_117720103

I'm wondering what kind of mental gymnastics are required for Unionists to include Micheal Martin and Simon Coveney in their list of collaborators.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722644#Comment_117722644

I don’t agree. This term hard brexit is a red herring.

I was not a supporter of brexit but now that the majority of people in Uk have asked for it in a referendum then that is what should be delivered.

how would any arrangement where an eu, with no Uk representation, making rules that Uk would have to follow, be brexit. It would be the opposite ie lose the benifits but keep the rules.

I do think the eu and in particular the roi need to accept the will of the majority of the British people. This continual reference to how particular regions voted is unhelpful.

uk and eu need to each have control of there regulations and then work as friends to cooperate to the highest degree possible.

of course ni is in a unique position sharing a land border with the eu. That just requires a grown up attitude by all to make it work.

unionists have genuinely been hurt watching the references to violence being used to influence decisions. Our community feels they stuck it out through a murderous sectarian campaign by the ira. It hurts to see that being even considered and whether you like it or not it really really hurt to hear that Leo had a photo at the eu of a murderous Ira attack, and for what purpose.

I still feel when the dust settles, sense will prevail and this will be better for ni than anyone else

Seth Brundle

I was not a supporter of brexit but now that the majority of people in Uk have asked for it in a referendum then that is what should be delivered.

In fairness, that is a fairly daft reason to switch your view on Brexit.

how would any arrangement where an eu, with no Uk representation, making rules that Uk would have to follow, be brexit. It would be the opposite ie lose the benifits but keep the rules.

This was the Brexit London chose. However, the simple solution for the UK to not have to follow any EU rules is to not want to trade with the bloc. How might that work out for the UK then?

I do think the eu and in particular the roi need to accept the will of the majority of the British people. This continual reference to how particular regions voted is unhelpful.

In what way have the EU not accepted "the will of the people"? Why do you single out RoI there also? The EU is a united bloc when it comes to this so no need to try and make it look like one member has done something the others are against.

Also, why is it unhelpful to single out particular regions? If it is ok for the Scots to do why not anyone else?

uk and eu need to each have control of there regulations and then work as friends to cooperate to the highest degree possible.

Grow up, will you? The UK is welcome to set it's own rules and standards, which it is doing. However, if it wants to trade into the EU then it will abide by the rules of that market, as it woukd if it wanted to trade with the US.

As for "friends", what is the UK doing to nurture a friendship?

Peregrinus

Well, the UK could have had a Norway-style Brexit, for example. During the referendum campaign, this was certainly acknowledged as a form of Brexit. While people might have differed about whether it was a desirable model for the UK, nobody disputed that it would be a model of Brexit that would be available. And I remember, after the referendum result, Brexiter MPs saying that if the UK wasn't allowed to continue to participate in the Single Market, that would be the EU "punishing" the UK for Brexit. And of course no less a man than Johnson, B, wrote an article - again, after the referendum result - saying that the UK would be in "a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey", which can only have been a reference to the Single Market, and was certainly widely understood as such at the time.

So, no, this notion that Brexit had to mean hard Brexit, that the people had voted for hard Brexit, and that anything less than hard Brexit would be contrary to what the people had voted for was very much a post-referendum decree by the Vote Leave establishment. They very publicly wet their pants at the suggestion that hard Brexit should be put to the people for confirmation, which I think suggests they had a pretty shrewd idea of what people actually felt about it.

Obviously, anyone who prioritized the wishes or welfare of NI would favour a soft Brexit over a hard (once they regretfully accepted that their had to be a Brexit in the first place, of course). Sadly, nobody in the Vote Leave establishment or the current British government attaches must importance to, or even has much knowledge of, the wishes or welfare of NI, so you are where you are.

As for "references to violence being used to influence decisions", it takes a bizarre set of values to accept with equanimity decisions that risk provoking violence (like the pursuit of hard Brexit) but to feel hurt when it is pointed out that those decisions risk provoking violence. Provoking violence is all right as long as nobody talks about it? Please, don't make me get sick into my own scorn.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718565#Comment_117718565

You still haven't answered the question:

Why does the NIP require the consent of the people of NI when Brexit itself does not?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722508#Comment_117722508

francie clearly realises this but goes of on making reasons up and now tells Rory that he is also Irish, no matter what he says himself.

He declared for Ireland because he is northern Irish. He put the country where he is from first which is what you are being asked to do with the Protocol.

Nobody is asking you or Rory to relinquish identities or feelings.