The Irish protocol.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734269#Comment_117734269

Bonnie I answered this specifically for you several pages back. I will try and find it and repost

downcow

..

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734300#Comment_117734300

..

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734436#Comment_117734436

I am not trying to junk the protocol. It’s great for us. We just need to junk the bad bits.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117735296#Comment_117735296

So, in essence, be allowed to take out all the bits you don't like and keep all the bits you do.

What do you propose to provide in place of those "bad bits"? Or do you just want them to be thrown away and the EU pretend the risks don't exist anymore?

What are you willing to risk foregoing in the agreement in order to maintain the current list of "good bits" that the UK negotiating team have managed to achieve? Or is the EU only meant to agree to remove the bits you don't like?

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117735296#Comment_117735296

I think the first step would be for you to stop pretending to be ignorant about Irish politics and actually engage with the realities of the situation.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117735296#Comment_117735296

Have only been reading the thread off and on, but you seem to be shifting position there. The Unionist politicians in NI we get to hear from so much just wish to get rid of NI protocol and that's that. I've not seen much nuance from the DUP on it.

In any case, I doubt there could be changes that will weaken it more than the current state of partial implementation. The lack of trust between the EU and the UK, and the intent of the UK to have a significant divergance from the EU in areas that will affect trade in goods between the two prevent that (at present).

I expect the "bad bits" (barriers to the free movement of goods between GB and NI) are bits that will protect borders of the EU single market and are necessary for keeping "good bits" (land border with no physical border infrastructure/hassle for people crossing back and forth, ability for NI producers to access Ireland and the rest of the EU without Customs checks) for NI.

NI Protocol is already a fudge of the situation. While the UK govt. is unhappy with the agreement now or at least see NI as a productive area for attacking and undermining the EU, despite the spin this agreement remains a concession made by the other EU member states to suit Ireland. If UK cannot be made to implement the protocol, I don't think the final outcome will be great for NI.

  

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117735155#Comment_117735155

If you did I couldn't find it. So given your history I'm gonna assume you didn't.

You can answer it now if you like, wouldn't that be easier?

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117735296#Comment_117735296

Can you be specific as to what exactly are "the bad bits"?

I mean, just yesterday you said you were happier now as part of the non-EU part of Europe, so surely that means you'd prefer to be more like them as well in trade and politics, thus the NIP must go?

I'm failing to see the consistency here. Perhaps you could clear that up for me.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117736470#Comment_117736470

Unionism is backing away fly_agaric.

This is another classic 'Never Never Never - ah shure go on' event.

A few weeks ago downcow was supporting the idea of 'destabilising marches in Dublin'.

Now it is, 'the protocol is grand, we just need to get rid of the bad bits'. (knowing he will be able to claim a victory when the EU and Frost inevitably enact the flexibilities and easements already in the Protocol)

The chief belligerent Unionist/Loyalist Jamie Bryson, having dramatically failed to stoke violent protest including the afore mentioned excursion to Dublin is also marching back down the hill at the moment.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117736275#Comment_117736275

I have been clear over and over again. Eg rabies vaccines. But now that you name ‘risk’, this is exactly what I and the uup have been saying for years. let’s risk assess the issues. That’s sensible. If products heading on a container to Tesco’s in Belfast are no risk of entering the eu then let’s stop checking them. If dog coming from Scotland are no risk to Europe then stop the nonsense.

this is all I am asking. Tell me what is wrong with that that??

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737204#Comment_117737204

Quite simple. if you do that then everyone on the EU's other borders will be asking why you have waived the rules on the Irish Sea border.

You have been offered flexibilities and easements, after that, it is 'suck it up folks, you were told this would happen'.

swampgas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737204#Comment_117737204

All very sensible, now get onto the British Government and get them to agree with you. They are the ones refusing to sign up to protocols that would ease these issues. But they won't, because they want the hardest possible border with the EU. And you'd be silly to think the EU will give the UK privileges not given to other third countries when the UK won't do the bare minimum to enable it from their side.

You might as well start learning to accept what Boris Johnson's government is doing here. They are making your life difficult because they refuse to behave as a reasonable neighbour. Instead they are hell bent on damaging the EU, and are obstructing the kind of reasonable arrangements that would address the issues you consider "the bad bits" of the agreement.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737204#Comment_117737204

The EU have risk assessed these issues - they have determined that as a non-EU member your choices are:

• sign up to a binding agreement where you will commit to their standards, or;
• your product is checked upon entry to the EU.

You mightn't see that as sensible, but then that's because it's an inconvenience to you.

I don't see the whole Brexit project as in any way sensible, but then you'll say that's because it's largely inconvenient to me.

If the UK are unwilling to do Option (1) then Option (2) is the only other option. There is no Option (3) or Option (1a). Don't even try to talk about "trust" or "mutual agreement" after the way the UK government has behaved.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737204#Comment_117737204

If someone wants to trade with the EU then they must abide by certain standards. Any third country must do this and they (to my knowledge) have little problem in doing so because the see the benefits of selling into a massive wealthy trading bloc.

The UK have said that they will not commit to align with the standards expected by the EU and have already started lowering their standards in many areas (labour and pesticides springing to my mind straight away). The EU is not going to going to allow a third country to maintain these lower standards while it is trading with it as it creates an unfair advantage over EU based companies who must keep the standards.

As for potential solutions, like you, the UK government want to remove "the bad bits" that don't suit them. At no point have you or your Uk politicians put forwards any workable suggestions to square the circle of standards alignment. In all likleihood, the simplest solution for London will be to cut the cord to NI by agreeing to a border poll.

As you've been told all of this multiple times already in this and other threads, I'm surprised that you're still parroting this nonsense. What surprises me more is how unionist politicians are so beligerent that they support a lowering of standards in NI simply so they can feel they are more alike to those in Britain.

NI politicians never had a problem with checks on the Irish Sea before. It is only now that they are seeing a problem and it has nothing to do with stock on shelves or any additional burden on customs staff. It is because they know that their end is coming and has been hastened by the absolutely stupid decision to back the crippled horse that was Brexit.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117736470#Comment_117736470

I don’t believe I am shifting.

No one begins negotiating with their final position.

mid I was asked by a Eu politician I would say I want it scraped, knowing we will arrive somewhere in the middle.

the dup are talking about scrapping it. IMHO there are two reasons for this 1) they are running scared of their electorate who are disgusted with how they got us here and 2) as above re negotiating.

I think they know rightly that there must be protocols. There is between every trading block in the world.

swampgas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738244#Comment_117738244

I'm sorry downcow, but surely the time for negotiating a final position is over and done with? The UK signed an international agreement, the negotiating should be over bar some minor tweaking as allowed for within the agreement itself. When you are negotiating, say you are buying a car, do you wait until the sale is agreed and the paperwork done to start looking for a better price?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718546#Comment_117718546

Bonnie. You continually say I have not given you examples of petty checks. So here is a recent post of mine again. In it I specifically address you tiresome question at some length.

now if you want more examples then just say how many and I will put it in my in tray to get around to

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738299#Comment_117738299

😁😁 Perfect analogy.

Unionism is climbing down on the protocol. They came up against a brick wall and hadn't the political wit to see it. First the EU would be brought to it's knees in the courts, then the invented terror threats and stoking young impressionable loyalists, then it was 'threats to disrupt the south with weekly marches,

Now, all the above having failed miserably they are feigning that they had a 'masterplan' all along to get minor easements and flexibility that was already available in the protocol.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117736602#Comment_117736602

Again you are misquoting me. We were discussing diversity rather than trade and I didn’t say I was happier, I said it was growing on me.

that said I am happier to be outside eu ref diversity. Eu countries are inevitably growing more alike with product and services rules, eu court, etc. The other 23 countries have much more freedom to be diverse

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737436#Comment_117737436

That is not a risk assessment. Rather that is a great example why a majority of the Uk surprised everyone and decided they had had enough rules and red tape nonsense

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738299#Comment_117738299

I am happy while the Eu call it ‘keep talking’. Either way it can achieve the end required- which actually won’t look massively different on the big scale of European issues

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738344#Comment_117738344

All those rules and red tape they were part of creating are suddenly so burdensome right now.....and nothing to do with anti money laundering/tax evasion actions coming down the line that were going to significantly impact certain Tory Party associates, who purely coincidentally made some hefty donations to the cause.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738307#Comment_117738307

You've just listed off some checks you've experienced. Can you explain how they are petty and how they are the fault of the EU that they have to be implemented?

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738325#Comment_117738325

"More freedom to be diverse"

Can you explain with examples, what you mean by this?

Coming from someone who's terrified of anything south of Jonesboro and of the síneadh fada, I find that statement laughable.

BluePlanet

Ireland is also rabies free.

So is Germany and France.

Maybe what you could do downcow which would probably have better odds, is advocate that the UK government reimburse the cost of the rabies vaccine for people bringing animals between the UK and NI.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737204#Comment_117737204

But the only way to check if the container is no risk to the EU is to actually check the container. How would anyone know if the containers were not full of products that were illegal to the EU without checking it. After fours years of this deadlock it obvious that there needs to be a border if the UK want to diverge from EU standards.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738344#Comment_117738344

They decided they had had enough rules and red tape nonsense so they did away with the agreements which they had maintaining common standards with countries they wanted to trade with, thereby resulting in more 'red tape and nonsense' to confirm their goods meet the standards of countries they want trade with.

What amazing foresight that showed. Talk about shooting oneself in the foot. 🙄

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738434#Comment_117738434

My goodness Bonnie. How do you need me to explain why these are petty. I am not going to get sucked into explaining the obvious.

I will repost for you below and you will have to work it out for yourself

1) (rules)if I go to a pedigree bull sale in Scotland will a bull and also to buy a bull (a common practice for farmers). I cannot buy a bull that my next door neighbour has taken over or I can’t bring my own bull home if unsold - I can though buy an English bull and bring it home with no difficulties. 

2) (rules) my daughter who is temp living in Scotland, had to get rabies vaccination and a health certificate for her dog visiting ni last month, while GB & NI are both rabies free and EU is not - cost her over £200 and a lot of hassle. 

3) (checks) I bought a cctv camera just before protocol. It’s a great job and thought I would buy another couple of same supplier. I ordered, order was then cancelled. I contacted them and they said they were not delivering to ni as it was no longer economically viable due to the “rediculous checks and repeditve paperwork”

4) (checks) significant number of items I have ordered from GB require me to hunt several suppliers until I find one prepared to deliver to me. This is new 

that’s an honest attempt to answer your question bonnie. If you think I have ducked something then please be specific about it and I will try again

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738479#Comment_117738479

That is just rediculous. If Uk are asking for dogs from rabies free Ireland to be vaccinated before entering the Uk, then I will call out that nonsense also.

read again what you posted. I can’t actually see any logic in it. Then Eu never had much logic applied