The Irish protocol.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818040#Comment_117818040

There wasn’t joint rule the last time it was collapsed by the shinners. Or should it be different rules when they collapse it?

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818011#Comment_117818011

More goalposts. I'm aware of what collapsed Stormont and who pulled the trigger, and getting into the weeds of it would go off topic. A country without an active government isn't inherently dead democracy; see Belgium for an example that makes NI look like a hobbyist for political deadlock. But only one side - and one faction of that side to be exact and fair - of the NI equation wants to actually remove the Protocol, and the Assembly at that if nationalists get a majority. You can call it wind up if you wish, but in any other country you didn't possess a resting bias for, you'd recognise that as - by definition - anti democratic.

KildareP

I see we are headed for yet another tiresome lap of the circle of arguments led by Downcow.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818051#Comment_117818051

I trust you, like me, don’t want to head down a cul de sac on this one. But you did say the reason they need our dogs vaccinated is because rabies may return to the Uk. You are now trying to shift to ‘because the rule book for the rest of the world says it’. This is the very essence of why there needs to be a protocol. Why would we need a protocol if we were just going to apply the world rule book.

but let’s disagree on this one.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818055#Comment_117818055

Apparently. Mea culpa on that front cos I forgot the castors on downcow's goalposts are well oiled. It's plain to see how allergic to self governance some loyalists are, it's also plain to see how reluctant some are for even the smallest amount of self reflection that there are those who'd break a country sooner than bend to realpolitik.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818053#Comment_117818053

Why would they not be?

If its reasonable to see dirext rule as a comsequence of sf collasping it....its equally reasonable to see joint rule as consequence of unionists collaspeing it

People are free to vote for unionists collasping it,but the consequences should be joint rule back on the table

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818054#Comment_117818054

Yea don’t want to go off topic but you did spend a few posts telling me how undemocratic it would be if TUV done some democratically that you didn’t like. But the shinners done the same and you didn’t see that as anti democratic And TUV would be telling people up front of their intentions while the shinners didn’t

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818055#Comment_117818055

Isn’t it funny how it is always Downcow to blame. Next there will be a flurry or reports and I’ll get tapped on the shoulder.

it’s all a bit predictable.

take a look at this mornings posts at who has been taking it off topic and attacking a poster and who has launched no personal attacks and has tried to keep on topic.

but hey, that’s the problem with democracy, watch who gets the tap on the shoulder 🤔

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818072#Comment_117818072

I think you may not have grasped the NI is in the Uk until the people of NI decide they don’t want to be.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818103#Comment_117818103

Noone said otherwise??

....but if unionism wishes to push ahead with this brainfart as regards collasping the institutions over a nationlist holding,what is effectively a cerimonal role of no importance

The consequnces should be joint rule back on the table,and its utterly irresponsible of political unionism to not inform.its base of the potential outcomes

mehico

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817933#Comment_117817933

Would tend to agree. TUV currently have one MLA and while polls can give a snapshot of a moment in time, it is highly unlikely that they would be in a position to nominate a FM or DFM after the next election.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818074#Comment_117818074

And like I said, your moral absolutes are your own to parse. Your ability to misrepresent my point after a failed attempt to accuse me of SF support is ballsy. The TUV are hostile to democracy in NI, that they tell you up front doesn't make them any less odious. Plenty of countries have voted their democracy away, doesn't make it right just 'cos SF might hate it; were it up to me SF, DUP and TUV would be gone in the morning, but realpolitik demands otherwise. One of those three is playing the game by its rules, even if it means pulling a Belgium; one wants to smash up the board completely if they can't win; another wants to talk of smashing the board but likes playing the game anyway. Degrees of shysters.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818127#Comment_117818127

Again I disagree with you. While I dislike the religious right position of jim Alistair. He has been pointing out for years the undemocratic nature of all five parties being in the executive no matter what they do. People can do little to oust them. RHI, support for terrorism, etc They are untouchable. They can fail us in the management of funds etc, again untouchable.

we are heading for a scenario. Where the vast majority of both communities wouldn’t put the DUP in charge of the school tuck shop, but because 13% vote for them then the will end up holding some very important ministerial offices.

so current system has major problems.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818114#Comment_117818114

I think that will be Dublin's response. Insist on joint authority.

The days of pandering to a destructive Unionism which has no feasible alternatives are over.

I think moderate Unionism, while not entirely happy about it would not object.

Junkyard Tom

Like the GFA times Unionism has to split into two camps.

1. Work within the Protocol
2. Refuse to work the Protocol

Let's be honest, if Stormont falls then it just proves that the north is internally ungovernable so it will be some form of joint London/Dublin governance as a holding pattern until we land on a United Ireland.

steddyeddy

I have come to the conclusion that the DUP's views of Northern Irish politics, the region's place in the UK and on the island of Ireland are as realistic as their views on homosexuality and evolution.

An example of this is in the article written by Jefferey Donaldson prior to the referendum

Brexit head to head: Jeffrey Donaldson – Why North should vote Leave

‘What has angered me the most has been the purported threats to our peace’

As we all know the majority of people in Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU, however, the majority of English people voted to leave and so they left. Following this the British government helped negotiate the Northern Irish protocol.

After signing the protocol Boris Johnson famously said there would be no checks between Britain and NI to which Michael Gove replied "yes there will actually be checks".

The government has confirmed for the first time that there will be Brexit checks on animals and food goods entering Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK from next January.

The announcement, detailed in a 23-page document released by the government on Wednesday, comes months after Boris Johnson pledged there would be no checks on trade crossing the Irish Sea – telling businesses that if anyone asked them to fill in new paperwork, they could “throw it in the bin”.

Despite that pledge, Michael Gove said on Wednesday the checks would be necessary to ensure the entire island of Ireland maintained “disease-free status”, with border inspection posts for agrifood arrivals at Belfast port, Belfast international airport, Belfast City airport and Warrenpoint port.

After voting for all of this and being one of the only parties in Northern Ireland who supported Brexit Jeff now says this...

Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) leader Sir Jeffrey Donaldson has accused the Irish government of "harming" Northern Ireland's relationship with the rest of the UK through its support for the Brexit deal.

This party is not to be taken seriously. They'll eventually collapse under their own disconnect from reality and judging by the polls it looks like it's already happening.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818090#Comment_117818090

I was referring to the same arguments put forward by yourself that have been discussed ad nauseam about:

• the NIP breaking the GFA (but not Brexit itself)
• EU checks that are standard for any third country (as opposed to some new petty exercise to punish the UK)
• how you seem to talk to many people who just so happen to agree universally with the exact point you are putting across here
• how NI is vastly pro-union, but refuses to accept many of the aspects of what membership of that Union provides as standard elsewhere throughout that Union
• how admitting the NIP is the best of both worlds for NI but the very systems and processes that enable this unique access to exist (the checks) must go
• Oh look! Sinn Fein!

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818962#Comment_117818962

It is my feeling that the vast majority of both communities would accept all the rules around diversity etc that apply in rest of Uk. The dup and TUV just have not caught up. The uup are according to the poll the biggest unionist party. They are fully in favour of diversity.

there is no point in us segueing ad nauseum about the other points you make

FrancieBrady

I think the problem is the unionist that is trying to keep a foot in each version of unionism.

It's coming to a choice the DUP way the TUV way or the UUP way.

FrancieBrady

I see Loyalism touting a survey of loyalist attitudes to the Protocol.

Can someone help me out here, because try as I might I cannot find an agreed figure of the amount of people who identify themselves as Loyalist.

Can anyone? Number and a source for that number please.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117823767#Comment_117823767

I've seen a few numbers floated about....around a thousand responses, it isn't a very professional looking setup; 25-34 year olds appear to be reported twice in two cohorts, almost 90% of responses male.

Over 60% of responses from Antrim....less than 1% from Fermanagh. Less than 6% between 18 and 24 years old.

You could probably take a guess that certain niche groups who's not-so-legitimate supplies are being badly impacted by the Protocol are heavily over-represented in the, 'poll'.

About as much use as surveying the readership of An Phoblacht for opinions on Unification.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824422#Comment_117824422

Yes and without an overall number for 'Loyalists' entirely pointless excercise really.

We know these attitudes exist, did the survey takers just find these attitudes in their sample?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824422#Comment_117824422

Here is a link to Belfast telegraph report

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/95-of-loyalists-believe-psni-are-preferential-to-republicans-finds-new-survey-40801402.html

never really know who is included in term loyalist.

i am middle class rural uup voter who has never been in bands or loyal orders and I regard myself as loyalist

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818516#Comment_117818516

Direct rule is where it will go in that scenario.

here is an excellent article that emphasis why many unionists won’t care a jot if Stormont goes. There’s pros and cons to keeping it

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/opinion/columnists/owen-polley-even-my-critics-do-not-claim-stormont-is-delivering-good-results-in-policy-areas-such-as-health-and-education-3364624

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825221#Comment_117825221

Ah yes....the reasonable voice of Owen Polley. As usual, you mistake your own hardline, self-admittedly Loyalist views as representative of the majority moderate Unionist.....and try and pretend it's representative of the average view.

After a hundred years of dominance and privilege, equality feels like discrimination.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825221#Comment_117825221

"Excellent Article" .....from the 'News Letter'..Quelle Suprise.

It's one sided gibberish expected from Owen Polley.

I took a poll from a sample crowd who just happen to be turkeys; they all said no to Christmas. Therefore everyone hates Christmas.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825355#Comment_117825355

Interesting when you mention polls. Lucid polls took a serious hammering on radio ulster today. Very little credibility.

bbc were rightly being asked why they keep using a poll that is so open to abuse and consistently shows a higher percentage supporting a UI than reputable polls.

lucid caught the shinners trying to skew it but no guarantee they are still not at it.

reputable polls like Life and Times Survey are showing 2:1 Uk:UI while lucid has them much closer.

think lucid was dealt a serious blow today and a touch of reality brought to the stats on love for Uk from both communities

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825544#Comment_117825544

You don't say why Lucid were hammered, or why other polls were considered to be "more reputable". Did the discussion touch on these points at all, or was it just people slamming Lucid because they don't like the results that Lucid reports?

The Life and Times Survey hasn't done any fieldwork on constitutional questions since October-December 2020. Were the critics of Lucid comparing its 2020 findings with Lucidtalks's more recent finding, but not making the point that there was an 8-10 month gap between the two polls? That might deal a "serious blow", but it would be to the critics, not to Lucid.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825950#Comment_117825950

It’s all online.

bbc were referring to people they have been in contact with who had registered multiple emails. It checks IP addresses so you can fill it in at home, at your, holiday home, at your granny’s, your work, etc.

downcow

A few posters were going on about no evidence of problems caused by checks, even though I had given several personal examples.

here is an article laying out some issues coming down the road for all of us.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/m-and-s-boss-warns-of-substantial-reduction-in-food-supply-to-northern-ireland-before-christmas-40802103.html

Mr Norman said: “The result is a fandango of bureaucracy, extra costs and food waste.”

He revealed that some of the retailer’s trucks, on average, travel to ports in GB with 700 pages of documentation, “equivalent to three paperback books”.

“This is not a one-way street.  At the moment, the Irish Government is following EU guidelines and implementing their draconian controls. But by contrast, the UK has allowed EU products to continue to flow into the country, no veterinary checks, no border inspection.

“Starting in October, that is going to change when UK Government rules are set to mirror those of the EU. So in a mutual act of self-destruction, we risk lumbering French cheese producers and Spanish chorizo manufacturers with the same costs as we have faced trying to export food to the EU.”