The Irish protocol.

downcow

athlone573 wrote: »

Don't you feel that Unionist leaders have a moral responsibility to step up to the plate and be honest about the fact that the checks would be minimal and straightforward to implement if the GB government cooperated and implemented what it signed up to clear as day, instead if its duplicitous and obstructive attitude? On the contrary you have an 18 year old idiot getting TV time to threaten violence.

As it stands it seems Poots and co are driving mainstream voters away towards the Alliance party. Which is actually good to see.

Why do you say he was threatening violence? And why do you say he was an idiot?
Here he is interviewed yesterday steering the community away from the right wing conservative DUP towards the moderate liberal UUP. Don’t shoot the messenger (unless you are prepared to apply the same measure to Leo talking up violence)

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ulster-unionists-more-appealing-than-dup-claims-youngloyalist-who-warned-of-possible-violence-over-ni-protocol-40486120.html

downcow

CaoimhinCong wrote: »

It won't happen, this is scare mongering. I speak with active and past UVF members through an iniative with Cois and EPIC (2 Organisations who help ex combatants of the IRA and UVF)

They have spoke on a level and said those elemts pushing for violence and disorder are either outside of the mainstream which if so it is 3 brigades of maybe 50 men and based loosely in SEA, East Belfast and LVF in antrim

Unionism has no direction or leadership and this has been exposed recently with Poots the creationist and Givan the absolute Whalloper gaining power. Unionism is going into a cul de sac which it will struggle to return from.

Alliance and UUP should benefit from an incompetent DUP who voted for brexit and all it entails.

I have also met with and visited these two organisations in many occasions. I would caution against them reflecting the views of their respective wider communities. EPIC represent a very small number of people and reflect the views of 50+ year old ex prosioners. They are absolutely not the group that will be involved in violence and indeed they will be trying hard to prevent it.
You also refer to the dissident loyalist factions. Again these are not mainstream and are drug dealing scumbags in the eyes of most unionists.

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

Why do you say he was threatening violence? And why do you say he was an idiot?
Here he is interviewed yesterday steering the community away from the right wing conservative DUP towards the moderate liberal UUP. Don’t shoot the messenger (unless you are prepared to apply the same measure to Leo talking up violence)

Poots (& others) have been mouthpieces for terrorists and criminals recently. They have been repeating stuff about Brexit and the NIP which are clearly untrue and knowing they are untrue. By meeting with these vermin, they are legitimising their cause. By spreading their threatds, they are endorsing those threats.


As for Leo, would you ever stop with that nonsense? It is really tiresome at this stage. You've been informed about it time and time again and yet choose to ignore the truth. Is there a reason why you do this?

athlone573

downcow wrote: »

Why do you say he was threatening violence? And why do you say he was an idiot?
Here he is interviewed yesterday steering the community away from the right wing conservative DUP towards the moderate liberal UUP. Don’t shoot the messenger (unless you are prepared to apply the same measure to Leo talking up violence)

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ulster-unionists-more-appealing-than-dup-claims-youngloyalist-who-warned-of-possible-violence-over-ni-protocol-40486120.html

Thanks and to be fair he comes across more nuanced there than his previous appearance,
which I understood as a veiled threat (and unwise of him to present himself as a mouthpiece for loyalist paramilitaries)

Sunny Disposition

What do most Protestants feel about it now Downcow? Is there very widespread concern?

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

You also refer to the dissident loyalist factions. Again these are not mainstream and are drug dealing scumbags in the eyes of most unionists.

Why are Poots, Foster, Frost and others meeting with these drug dealing scumbags and repeating their threats of violence if they can't continue unhindered with their illegal activities?

downcow

athlone573 wrote: »

Thanks and to be fair he comes across more nuanced there than his previous appearance,
which I understood as a veiled threat (and unwise of him to present himself as a mouthpiece for loyalist paramilitaries)

Last time we received a sensationalised sound bite to suit some agendas.
I appreciate your openness to read it

FrancieBrady

Wrecking their own communities and blockading parts of the north achieved zilch for them on the Anglo Irish Agreement, The GFA, Parades and the flag.

I fail to see why threatening it, or worrying about it, is going to achieve anything this time either.

The world moves on regardless. Not sure when that lesson will be learned.

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Why are Poots, Foster, Frost and others meeting with these drug dealing scumbags and repeating their threats of violence if they can't continue unhindered with their illegal activities?

I am not aware they are?

CaoimhinCong

downcow wrote: »

I have also met with and visited these two organisations in many occasions. I would caution against them reflecting the views of their respective wider communities. EPIC represent a very small number of people and reflect the views of 50+ year old ex prosioners. They are absolutely not the group that will be involved in violence and indeed they will be trying hard to prevent it.
You also refer to the dissident loyalist factions. Again these are not mainstream and are drug dealing scumbags in the eyes of most unionists.

You completely mixed up my post. The only potential violent opposition to Irish sea borders is dissident loyalist factions. Carrick, Larne and areas in newtownabbey under SEA UDA and east Belfast UVF then Antrim LVF.

The wider community represented by 1st battalion UVF west Belfast bunter Graham and Matt Kincaid C coy West Belfast UDA , Jackie McDonald South Belfast with 1 or 2 young Turks in around sandyrow making noise, with other brigadiers and commanders under their control. These loyalist leaders have unionist community on a leash. I believe when people say unionists will return to violence they are scare mongering there is no appetite to return by loyalists.

I'm on the ground every day dealing with both sides of the community, I hear it from their mouths. They are angry but not to that extent.

Jump_In_Jack

So, reading through this thread was searching for an update on the legal challenge, was it upheld or rejected can anyone enlighten me please?

VinLieger

downcow wrote: »

I am not aware they are?

Arlene meeting with them

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dup-leader-defends-her-meeting-with-loyalist-group-over-protocol-40133307.html

Frost meeting with them

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40287854.html

Poots meeting with them

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2021/06/05/news/new-dup-leader-edwin-poots-meets-with-lcc-2345541/

downcow

CaoimhinCong wrote: »

You completely mixed up my post. The only potential violent opposition to Irish sea borders is dissident loyalist factions. Carrick, Larne and areas in newtownabbey under SEA UDA and east Belfast UVF then Antrim LVF.

The wider community represented by 1st battalion UVF west Belfast bunter Graham and Matt Kincaid C coy West Belfast UDA , Jackie McDonald South Belfast with 1 or 2 young Turks in around sandyrow making noise, with other brigadiers and commanders under their control. These loyalist leaders have unionist community on a leash. I believe when people say unionists will return to violence they are scare mongering there is no appetite to return by loyalists.

I'm on the ground every day dealing with both sides of the community, I hear it from their mouths. They are angry but not to that extent.

You seem fascinated by those guys and hold them in far to high an esteem. This is much bigger than a few old paramilitaries

downcow

VinLieger wrote: »

Arlene meeting with them

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dup-leader-defends-her-meeting-with-loyalist-group-over-protocol-40133307.html

Frost meeting with them

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40287854.html

Poots meeting with them

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2021/06/05/news/new-dup-leader-edwin-poots-meets-with-lcc-2345541/

We were specifically talking about the dissadent loyalist groups mentioned eg SEA UDA. None of them are connected to LCC who your links refer to.
So I was correct

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You seem fascinated by those guys and hold them in far to high an esteem. This is much bigger than a few old paramilitaries

If it is 'bigger' you must have some evidence of that? Or have you been chatting to a friend of a friend down the pub again?

If you don't have data/evidence then you are just threatening for effect.

CaoimhinCong

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If it is 'bigger' you must have some evidence of that? Or have you been chatting to a friend of a friend down the pub again?

If you don't have data/evidence then you are just threatening for effect.

It doesn't get bigger then that. For Belfast 1st on the shankill road call shots for UVF and UDA in taughmona where Jackie is based.

Everything else falls under them, except the dissidents. Which have about 50 men a piece. I wouldn't worry about loyalists engaging in violence.

downcow

CaoimhinCong wrote: »

It doesn't get bigger then that. For Belfast 1st on the shankill road call shots for UVF and UDA in taughmona where Jackie is based.

Everything else falls under them, except the dissidents. Which have about 50 men a piece. I wouldn't worry about loyalists engaging in violence.

You sound like one of the we groups of ex prisoners from ira, Uvf etc who meet together to convince each other you done nothing wrong and try and blame everything and everybody else for your wrongdoing and who think the world revolves around them. You are hero’s in your own minds.

Would I have got you right ?

CaoimhinCong

downcow wrote: »

You sound like one of the we groups of ex prisoners from ira, Uvf etc who meet together to convince each other you done nothing wrong and try and blame everything and everybody else for your wrongdoing and who think the world revolves around them. You are hero’s in your own minds.

Would I have got you right ?

Your definitely not a Belfast man. I'd imagine Fermanagh Tyrone or somewhere out Mid Ulster man am I close?

VinLieger

downcow wrote: »

We were specifically talking about the dissadent loyalist groups mentioned eg SEA UDA. None of them are connected to LCC who your links refer to.
So I was correct

All have been connected to drug dealing and are terrorist scumbags so I disagree

downcow

CaoimhinCong wrote: »

Your definitely not a Belfast man. I'd imagine Fermanagh Tyrone or somewhere out Mid Ulster man am I close?

Glad I got you correct. You are way off with me but I can hear the other posters laughing lol

maestroamado

I think alot more happened in the last 48 hrs than was expected here... hope it continues....

CaoimhinCong

downcow wrote: »

Glad I got you correct. You are way off with me but I can hear the other posters laughing lol

Your not a Belfast man. I know by your talk your not.

Peregrinus

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

So, reading through this thread was searching for an update on the legal challenge, was it upheld or rejected can anyone enlighten me please?

There has been a hearing at which both sides laid out their arguments in public. Now we're in a phase in which the judge looks at the arguments, thinks about them, and writes up his judgment. At some point a date will be announced on which the judgment will be handed down. So far as I know we haven't got that date yet.

Regardless of which way the judgment goes, there's a sporting chance that it will be appealed.

downcow

Good to see labour starting to catch on. https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1404398541984960517?s=21

VinLieger

downcow wrote: »

Good to see labour starting to catch on. https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1404398541984960517?s=21

Much like the tories they probably shouldn't have voted for it then?

downcow

VinLieger wrote: »

Much like the tories they probably shouldn't have voted for it then?

Yip

briany

Problem is that although Starmer appears to agree with Johnson in terms of being against the Protocol, he'd be loathe to actually vote in an alternative proposed by Johnson, as he obviously wouldn't want to give the Conservatives any type of easy political win.

But the further problem is that Johnson has no alternative that is mutually agreeable to Britain and the EU. If that alternative existed, the Protocol would never have been necessary. This is all grandstanding and brinkmanship from the British government. They simply cannot afford to tear up the Protocol and risk putting the border in Ireland as it puts a trade deal with the EU and with the USA in too much jeopardy.

FrancieBrady

briany wrote: »

Problem is that although Starmer appears to agree with Johnson in terms of being against the Protocol, he'd be loathe to actually vote in an alternative proposed by Johnson, as he obviously wouldn't want to give the Conservatives any type of easy political win.

But the further problem is that Johnson has no alternative that is mutually agreeable to Britain and the EU. If that alternative existed, the Protocol would never have been necessary. This is all grandstanding and brinkmanship from the British government. They simply cannot afford to tear up the Protocol and risk putting the border in Ireland as it puts a trade deal with the EU and with the USA in too much jeopardy.

Nearly as entertaining as the British cutting themselves up (and nobody else) over Brexit itself.
Of no consequence really.

bilbot79

downcow wrote: »

Good to see labour starting to catch on. https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1404398541984960517?s=21

The clear message from Keir there is that Boris is a complete idiot and the only escape route is that the UK should stay in the customs union per Theresa May's deal.

I think Boris knows this but his strategy can be one of the below:

-Push back against EU and prevail - Superb Victory for Boris
-Stall until he is no longer prime minister and someone else completes the retreat - Stalemate for Boris
-Stall until the EU instigate matters leading effectively to no deal with Boris blaming them for it- Victory for Boris
-Deliver on the international agreement he signed - Failure for Boris

The current British government is unwantonly casual with an international agreement they signed. I can't see why they have the moral authority to assert sovereignty over Gibraltar by Treaty if they cannot also stand over the Withdrawal Agreement they signed with the EU.

Boris is a complete buffoon in my opinion

briany

bilbot79 wrote: »

-Deliver on the international agreement he signed - Failure for Boris

The average Conservative voter does not care that there are some extra checks in the Irish Sea. They just want their Brexit, so the failure for Johnson in enacting the protocol would just be one in his own mind, not maximising the potential for jingoism and brinkmanship.