The Irish protocol.

Fionn1952

It's the same technique as always, pretend not to understand, receive answer, complain about answer, deflect onto themmuns, repeat ad nauseum until the person replying throws in the towel, claim it as a great victory for Ulster.

The DUP (and the Ulster Unionists when they actually had some MPs) voted in Westminster against every single Brexit option for NI, 100% of the time. A resounding "NO!" to everything. It was real head-in-the-sand stuff, we want out of the hated EU but we want to be seamless with the EU just as we are now.

It didn't seem to register that with Brexit the UK were creating a land frontier with the EU where none had previously existed, and that the frontier had to go somewhere. And the somewhere was either a/ between Ireland and the rest of the EU b/ between Ireland and Northern Ireland or c/ between N. Ireland and the rest of the UK (or GB if you prefer).

a/ was never going to happen, b/ was illegal under the GFA, so by a process of elimination we quite easily arrive at c/. It still amuses / confounds me that Unionism couldn't work through that logic process for themselves.

It still impresses me that the EU stood by Ireland through the whole process, not even a hint of a sellout at any stage. Compare that with the treatment of Unionists by the Tories who threw the DUP under the first bus that came along. Is it any wonder a lot of unionists are considering a future in Ireland and not the UK ?

Sunny Disposition

I'm kinda wondering at this point, are a section of unionists asking themselves what is the point for a struggle over the protocol.

It's a long, long struggle against everything, the Anglo Irish Agreement, some were staunch against the Good Friday Agreement, now the Protocol. Surely a large element are going to see that living comfortably in proximity to people from a different background is better than the path the likes of the TUV and the DUP want to follow. Surely the vision of Alliance and the UUP has to get a bounce now from people who vote unionist.

lurleen lumpkin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117973938#Comment_117973938

UUP are anti protocol now too. Beattie is over in Manchester screaming into the void with the rest of the clowns.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974084#Comment_117974084

Of course they are, but the real intense bitterness doesn’t seem to be there to the same extent.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971620#Comment_117971620

responsibility is the word. I assume Unionists backed Brexit thinking they'd get their good old fashioned, peace breaking physical border back again so brexit it was fine. Now they realise that isnt going to happen and that there has to be some form of checks made somewhere - common sense would suggest the sea and where ever goods can land - then Brexit is bad and time to whinge and complain.

People expect Unionism to be responsible for what it helped create. Unionism isnt doing that. Instead its showing the world how spoiled it is, expecting to get its way if it huffs and puffs enough when the stable door is already wide open and the horse has long bolted

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971620#Comment_117971620

"do you understand that we do not want people who we cannot vote for making rules and holding court over us?"

Are you referring there to the Tories, the Lords, the Monarchy or all three ? Because we can't vote for or against any of them.

micosoft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971620#Comment_117971620

Norway. Indeed Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein take all the EU rules without a say. I'd hazard to say that the Norwegians & Icelanders don't feel it threatens their sovereignty.

On the other hand the people of Northern Ireland & Scotland have been forcibly removed from the EU because their vote is worthless in an English run union.

The problem is that nobody understands a group of people who are irrationally taking decisions against their own self interest. Whether voting against Mays deal or supporting Brexit in the first place no nationalist who put themselves into a Unionists shoes would have followed the same decisions because every act damaged the Union or was just appalling and unrealistic (creating a hard border and rewinding history to before the Anglo Irish agreement).

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972140#Comment_117972140

This is hillarious downcow.

Yes, Norway takes EU rules and has zero voice.

Yes, Norway made that choice.

So did the UK. You made a choice for Brexit and you signed up to the NIP.

Seth Brundle

So it looks like the DUP will throw a tantrum soon because they aren't getting their way in terms of being able to damage trade in NI in the same way that the Tories have done so in GB. This tsantrum looks like it is being supported by Westminster...

https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1445065383900327938

Interesting comments by Frost here. It soounds like he wants to reverse the increase in NI to ROI and ROI to NI trade along with the drop in the use of the landbridge...

https://twitter.com/postofficy/status/1445066910652112897

As one response to this points out, actively blocking North/South trade would contravene the GFA.

So how will this all play out? Will they trigger Art 16 and if so, on what basis? How will the EU respond to that?

Suckler

"The protocol is being attacked not because it doesn’t work, but because it DOES - strengthening north-south economic links. And the urgency to dismantle it."

Unionism 101.

Heighway61

Boris & co's plan is trundling along just nicely, perfectly to plan.

The most obviously duplicitous shower of tricksters and arrogant liars in a profession where such attributes are almost a requirement.

Have the EU the will and wherewithal to call their bluff?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117973180#Comment_117973180

Thanks. Those answers are clear and if they were in amongs the essay then I apologise. We don’t all have the same capacity for reading and digesting very long pieces.

your first point is strange as there is controls on people etc crossing the border. That’s why is called ‘the border’. If you mean no additional stuff, then I understand. That’s all I ask for the Irish Sea internal barrier.

as for you second answer, I concur. That’s a reasonable reason and exactly the reasons I don’t want additional stuff on Irish Sea.

As for you last question. I absolutely do not think a hard border on either the Irish border or the Irish Sea is appropriate

Snugbugrug28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976250#Comment_117976250

So if no hard border and no sea border, then what? No Brexit?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974557#Comment_117974557

The structure of government means we only vote for parliament and the stories stand in every election in ni and I can vote for them if I wish

Seth Brundle

As for you last question. I absolutely do not think a hard border on either the Irish border or the Irish Sea is appropriate

So you're opposed to the economic self-destructive nonsense that is Brexit! Good to know.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976250#Comment_117976250

The Irish Sea border isn't a hard border (except abstractly, in very cross Unionists heads) it even has flexibilities and easements built into it to soften it as much as is safe and practical.

The rest, is simply the price of Brexit that everyone has to pay in one way or another.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976269#Comment_117976269

Simple common sense. Trusted trader schemes etc.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976314#Comment_117976314

That is not how the single market works and you well know it.

Snugbugrug28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976314#Comment_117976314

The proposal needs to be something that works for everybody not just unionism and Tories, otherwise it's just not going to happen. I don't understand how after all this time unionists don't just turn around and say a hard Brexit is an absolute disaster. Customs union, veterinary agreement, solved.

FishOnABike

Maybe the UK could negotiate a series of bilateral agreements with the EU. Over time the number of these agreements could increase bringing UK and EU regulations in closer and closer alignment and facilitate the easier and easier trade in goods and services between the UK and EU and eliminate the need for cross border checks.

As the number of bilateral agreements increase and the regulatory differences decrease businesses could have free access to a much larger non domestic supplier and customer base in a larger, common, single market.

I think the benefits should be obvious. I wonder if a similar 'single market' type system has ever worked somewhere before. 😏

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976469#Comment_117976469

Some good sensible stuff here

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976507#Comment_117976507

So effectively the UK should roll back Brexit and rejoin the single market / European Union?

Snugbugrug28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976550#Comment_117976550

That would be too sensible

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976381#Comment_117976381

It doesn't have to 'work for everyone'. Brexit was a crazy move, there is no onus on anybody to leave the UK better off or equally well off in any agreement. If they want a trade agreement, well, it is gonna cost.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976550#Comment_117976550

Yes, and this is what was always going to happen eventually but the Conservative party of the UK cannot do it right away or else be seen by its voters as going crawling back to the EU. That's how it would be framed by pretty much every single two-bit right-wing pundit out there.

I should remind everyone that in the original Vote Leave leaflet, it did explicitly state that the vision for leaving the EU was to instead become a member of the EEA or EFTA. The idea was, after all, that leaving the EU would be a smooth transition. The easiest deal in history, they said. Didn't quite work out like that, but the door always remains open for the UK government to come to its senses and do what's best for the country it governs. That being to normalise relations with its geographically-closest trading partner.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976550#Comment_117976550

Not at all. I assume most of us on here are democrats. Our nation voted to leave.

I do agree that most of what we do aligns and agreements will cover most stuff. But I opposed to Uk being in single market are conforming to Eu veterinarian rules. This would be worse than being in the Eu by some distance.

if the people of ni were given a straight ultimatum of Uk or Eu, I have zero doubt majority would pick Uk. Now I know that is disturbing for many posters here but it is the reality.

smokie72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976718#Comment_117976718

Isn't he UK a group of 4 nations? England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales...Both Northern Ireland and Scotland voted to remain.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976718#Comment_117976718

You're acting as if there were no promises made regarding leaving the EU which would have influenced voters' decisions and that is an absolute whopper of a thing to leave out. Did the Vote Leave leaflet or did it not make a promise that the UK would remain part of a free trade zone with the EU? I'll answer that for you - yes, it did.

So, yes, the people of the UK did vote to leave..... under the understanding that it would be a relatively painless transition and that access to the single market would continue but with none of the obligations which came with participating in it, as promised by completely unscrupulous populists like Nigel Farage.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976801#Comment_117976801

When you join the Uk that’s not what you sign up to. That must be why you guys partitioned from the rest of us