The Irish protocol.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990343#Comment_117990343

A few weeks ago you were advocating 'disruptive marches in Dublin' and a few weeks before that trumpeting cataclysmic(to the Protocol) legal challenges. Basically you are hunting a win anywhere you can find it.

Had Britain and Unionism had manners and a sense of their place they simply had to use the Protocol mechanisms to get where they are now. Which is negotiations within the framework of the Withdrawal Agreement and Protocol, i.e. normal stuff that happens in trade deals.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990343#Comment_117990343

It is literally what people on this thread have told you for bloody months would happen. All the room in the world to compromise....within the bounds of the Protocol.

Christ almighty, someone could take a sh*te on your toast and you'd be talking about the great gains Unionism has made on securing Nutella supplies.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990361#Comment_117990361

Haha. There’s a word you haven’t used before francie ‘negotiations’ 😂

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990407#Comment_117990407

Ha I just didn’t understand yous. I thought you were saying we needed to suck it up, Eu will be making no new proposals, no negotiations 😂. You guys even got upset when I said that they had agreed to ‘keep talking’. This is something quite more now. Even francie, yes even francie has just said ‘negotiations’.

I know you have the numbers to brow beat me but we can all see the movement. And fair play to Eu. I was getting pretty pissed of at their intransigence, but they are growing in my expectations

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990343#Comment_117990343

In what way is the EU moving (i.e. changing the actual protocol and not doing things within the boundaries of the protocol itself)? You really are reading what you want to see.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990513#Comment_117990513

Aye, provide a single quote from this thread that doesn't suggest that the EU are entirely open to negotiations within the scope of the Protocol, Downcow. It is literally what you've been told from day one. You've constantly insisted that NI will receive easements beyond the scope of the Protocol.....and now the EU have agreed to open negotiations within the scope of the Protocol, you're claiming a victory.

Being blunt, you're talking absolute sh*te and you're determined to claim another glorious victory for Ulster regardless of the reality on the ground.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990467#Comment_117990467

Now you have to tell porkies to get some semblance of a win. I have been making the same point to you, as have others, for a long time now.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990579#Comment_117990579

Now you are using the word negotiations 😮.

we are on page 81 and now some of the die hard anti unionists are saying the Eu will negotiate (within certain parameters). Find me anywhere on the last 80 pages where these posters said the Eu would negotiate.

Thos movement by you guys is stark as you realine following Eu movement.

this is why I tried so hard to get someone to tell me what they thought the Eu would not do and everyone resisted answering.

if you are happy tonight then so am I, so reasons to have a glass

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990625#Comment_117990625

We have been saying the EU will, with the British, use the easements and flexibilities within the Protocol. That will take sitting down, like adults, and negotiating.

It's another attempt to get a win from you downcow. Pathetic.

Fionn1952

Going back to the first few pages Downcow, I see you blustering about no border in the Irish Sea, the, 'game changer' legal challenge fixing it all for you, then a 'simple statement' that there will be instability in the North if the Protocol is not removed.

I'm only on page 3 for those points, you'll note the aggressive softening of your position from the Protocol must be removed and there is a game changer legal challenge......to celebrating the EU agreeing that they would negotiate within the bounds of the Protocol (which has always been the EU position).

Early stages of the discussion, the idea of the EU negotiating within the bounds of the Protocol weren't discussed because you were so adamant that the Protocol would be gone that easements weren't relevant. When you softened your cough and accepted that it was here to stay, you started to pretend that you believed that all along, dropped the bluster about the, 'legal challenge' and pretended you were in favour of the Protocol all along.....then started into the talk of renegotiating it.

THAT'S when you were told quite frankly that the EU were always open to renegotiation, but it would remain within the bounds of the Protocol, you insisted that the Protocol would be dropped and you'd live in the land of cake and eating it......when it became apparent that yes, any negotiations would STILL be within the bounds of the Protocol, you softened your position again to pretending that ANY easements were somehow a victory for Unionism.

You've moved a fierce amount more on what you consider a victory compared to the start of the thread than anyone else in here.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117269720#Comment_117269720

Just to demonstrate my point from early in in thread, Downcow. Oh what a tangled web we weave....

skimpydoo

Downcow, the situation is that the Unionists are fooked, why can't you see that? The protocol will not be changed or got rid off. Any negotiations will involve working within the protocol.

That's the situation in a nutshell.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990625#Comment_117990625

We have been saying consistently on this thread that the EU will negotiate. The protocol contains a negotiation mechanism and the EU has always been keen to use this to address the implementation issues that have arisen. It is the UK that has been hanging back, and demanding that instead of negotiating about the implementation issues the protocol should be replaced. Sefkovic has repeated yesterday that the Protocol will not be replaced.

What Sefkovich said yesterday was not a softening or a U-turn; it was a reiteration of the position the EU has held all along.

The Brexit process has been repeatedly characterised by episodes in which an EU official restates a long-held position and the Brexity press hails this a cave, signalling an impending collapse. Brexit supporters pretend to believe this or, perhaps more depressingly, actually do believe this. This is the process by which the Brexit movement readies itself and its followers to accept the EU's position.

Risky prediction: The events of recent days make me think that it could perhaps be time for Lord Frost to start polishing up the old CV. he may soon find that, when it comes to the conduct of the UK's relationship with the EU, his particular brand of performative bad faith is surplus to requirements.

We can go all the way back to June 17th and see FrancieBrady talking about easements in the protocol.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117442824#Comment_117442824

And we can go back a month to see the exact same argument. Rinse repeat. Rinse repeat.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117847771#Comment_117847771

And in November it will be the same. And in December.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990599#Comment_117990599

Well then it will be simple for you (the master of the thread searches) to post some examples where you stated clearly that the Eu will ‘negotiate’ over the protocol even within parameters?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990689#Comment_117990689

You now well that every time I mentioned the word negotiate on the last 80 pages ‘we’ told me the Eu would not be negotiating. Suddenly you guys are very comfortable with the word 😂

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991343#Comment_117991343

Can you quote somebody saying "the EU will not negotiate"?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990835#Comment_117990835

Oh certainly I have changed my opinion as I have realised the huge benifits of the good bits of the protocol. I believe the ability to change is a huge strength and I wish there was more of it in politics.

this is an interesting post from you where you clearly are keen to demonstrate that you haven’t changed as much as me. This is an alien concept to me as I see change as learning and I love learning.

a chink of light is that you are at least accepting you guys have changed - but not as much as me 🙂. You think that is positive; I would say try and catch up and try to be more open to learning and change.

let’s agree we are moving closer together, even if you think it’s me doing most of the moving

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991252#Comment_117991252

“We have been saying consistently on this thread that the EU will negotiate.”

are you for real. 80 pages and “we” have been saying consistently on this thread that the EU will negotiate.

I completely accept it is being said loud and clear by several posters on this page, but if you have been saying consistently on this thread that the EU will negotiate. Then it should be very easy to quote a few posts that are as clear - even if it was only one per page that would be 80. The master of quotes can find none 😂

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991370#Comment_117991370

You haven't offered any quotes to support your own claims about what you were told depite being asked to.

Will you at least accept that you have repeatedly been told that the EU is willing and anxious to negotiate improvements to the implementation of the protocol, and statemenst that it was not willing to negotiate referred only to negotiating the removal or replacement of the protocol?

If you don't accept this, then please quote a post in which you were told that the EU would not negotiate about the implementation of the protocol. If you can't quote such a post, then stop making the claim. Persisting in it will reflect no credit on you.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991311#Comment_117991311

Well there we go. Adsbygoogle has gone through the entire thread to prove me wrong and hehe not one single example of anyone saying the Eu would negotiate.

throw away the shovel guys. Change is positive. Be loud and proud about it.

I change from wanting the whole protocol chucked to just wanting the bad bits away. Watch this space for the new proposals (easements😂)

Here is the link for a search of all variations of negotiate in this thread. It only works on Desktop.

https://www.boards.ie/search?domain=discussions&query=negotiate&sort=-dateInserted&scope=site&name=%22The%20Irish%20protocol.%22&types%5B0%5D=discussion&types%5B1%5D=comment

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991358#Comment_117991358

That’s like asking me to prove god doesn’t exist. Tbh I am very poor at using the search on here but might have a go when at my pc. But there is little point. It’s staring everyone in the face. I say again - good on you for changing. I wish more people would have the ability to change.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991388#Comment_117991388

👍 thanks I’ll have a wee gander at this later

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991396#Comment_117991396

Your fixation on the word "negotiate" is rather bizarre. Negotiate in the context of the Protocol means to change the Protocol. That isn't happening. You'll find loads of posts from people here saying that discussions would happen within the scope of the protocol.

It's finally dawning on me, and no offence meant, that we could actually be debating a unionist on the spectrum. It would explain an awful lot about this 80-page trainwreck and the repeated obsessions with things like this "negotiate".

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991386#Comment_117991386

The "good bits" in your mind (like membership of the EU Single Market and Customs Union for goods) can't exist without the "bad bits" in your mind (borders, checks).

The whole reason NI gets to remain in the EU SM/CU is so the checks exist in the Irish Sea and not on the island of Ireland. The EU ends in the Irish Sea.

If, as unionists appear to want deep down, the checks were moved across the island of Ireland, that's where the EU external border will lie and NI will not be on the inside.

Getting rid of the checks altogether, in the absence of the UK as a whole agreeing to remain aligned to EU standards, is simply not workable either.

Peregrinus

It's nothing like asking you to prove that God doesn't. It's asking you to quote a post in which you are told that the EU will not negotiate in order to back up your claim that you have constantly been told that the Eu will not negotiate.

If you have been told this, the posts telling you this exist. If you cannot find any posts telling you this, you have not been told it; your memory has been playing you false.

As you say, change is a good thing. You can change by no longer advancing this false claim.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991361#Comment_117991361

Christ Almighty, you really are quite expert at ignoring the substance of a post to hone in on one tiny point and deflect away. More fool me for responding to it I suppose, but here goes.

I've changed plenty Downcow....just not in any way that you're trying to suggest.

My position is that I want what is best for my family who still live in NI, I believe that would've been best achieved by remaining in the EU, but as that didn't happen, I changed to wanting the UK to remain as closely aligned as possible to the EU, when it became apparent that wouldn't happen, I changed to wanting special protection for NI. That's how we got the Protocol.

Unlike you, I actually read the Protocol at the time it was announced, so I didn't come in to this thread shouting about getting rid of it without knowing about the huge benefits.....I already knew it had huge benefits. Back when you were still ranting about getting rid of it with your, 'game changer' legal challenge and giving examples of how untenable it supposedly was, you were already constantly being told that it wasn't fixed as it is and that the EU and the UK would continue to negotiate.....we knew this because WE READ THE PROTOCOL, which sets out precisely how those negotiations can continue.

Fast forward a few months, and the EU have stated again that they are willing to negotiate, but the NI Protocol will remain (I.e. negotiations will be within the scope of the Protocol) and you're off claiming victory, despite the fact that this has been the position all along.....which you would've known if you had just READ THE PROTOCOL. Someone has gone to the effort of providing a comprehensive search through the thread demonstrating this.....and in response you wave it off saying you'll get to it later, while continuing to act like it hasn't been evidenced.

I put it to you that your position hasn't changed because you've suddenly had a change of heart and recognised the good the NI Protocol does for NI, but rather to spare your blushes as all your predictions so far fell flat on their face. Easier to pretend you've come around on the Protocol than to accept that you've been wrong pretty much every step of the way since Brexit negotiations started I suppose.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991437#Comment_117991437

Ok. I’ll find you something later. In the meantime could those of you claiming I’ve been told the Eu would negotiate maybe post a few examples.

would you as a minimum accept their has been a significant change in how many anti-unionists posters on here are using the word ‘negotiate’ since the speech in Dublin yesterday?

downcow

Would you guys accept that many posters have been telling me that the Eu rules will have to be adhered to around medicines, food and livestock. And that Eu rules will not be changed to facilitate the Uk?

because that is the next one coming down the tracks at you which you will no doubt spin to suggest you knew all along that these would happen