The Irish protocol.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114680#Comment_118114680

That transactional relationship to citizenship will not be welcome in a UI from anyone in the northeast. As for a devolved north? Maybe. But it will have to be all of Ulster as any attempt to maintain the former sectarian carve-up won't wash.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114736#Comment_118114736

Ireland uses Irish standard time in the summer and gmt in the winter. So they don't just follow the UK.

You've been wrong about so many things at this stage, would you not double check these things before you wrote them here.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118115096#Comment_118115096

And we simply wouldn't do it because of the disruption it would cause in the country, with two different timezones.

It would be just giving into spitefulness.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114736#Comment_118114736

I suppose I have to take your word for it (esp. on the first). You do vary a bit & are contradictory in your desires for NI protocol depending on the day; e.g. when you express pleasure about reductions in the potential customs controls that have been offered by the EU. However if a UK court finds it to be illegal/unconstitutional, that doesn't bode well for the Protocol's future existance, or encourage companies and businesses to rely on it whatsoever. And yet, you also seem somewhat hopeful about prospects of the case (you reminded me it was not over yet).

Lord Frost and UK government are not interested at all in "improving" it, even for Unionist allies in NI. I think even you will admit that. The way they are conducting themselves would not lead a person to expect the agreement actually has a future looking 3-6 months out. How then could anyone locate some business or invest in NI based on its continued existance (and NIs ability to trade free of any customs checks with the Ireland/EU) for example? 

I agree Ireland is not France or Germany. However the EU is complex (with overlapping circles who are members of different aspects), it has a diverse bunch of countries and Ireland is a member of the EU. Alot of members are also border states, some of them have more difficult and complicated links with their non EU neighbours than we do with the UK. You're right though that the fact the UK has left (we joined together) does put Ireland in a new and tricky position, more like Estonia / Finland / Greece / Cyprus than France or Germany. We follow the UK on many things because of shared history (incl. our time as members of the EU together) as well as location but if the UK is happily diverging off in another direction entirely on its own Brexit journey, I think Ireland should just follow them on fewer and fewer matters rather than adjusting its own course for a quieter life. Ireland shouldn't do that (follow UK grudgingly, against our wishes) for the sake of NI either. It's just not worth it IMO. Martyrdom rarely is.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114736#Comment_118114736

Now you are quite happy to have your country and family split?

A border in the Irish Sea splits my country, my people, my family.

FrancieBrady

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/lanark-way-protest-live-updates-22061160

If sending a few scrotes up to Lanark Way to protest the Protocol is a sign of 'the Protocol destabilising Northern Ireland', surely then the 12th is something that destabilises NI every fecking year, given there is far worse violence at that intersection.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118115096#Comment_118115096

Would Irish standard time be British summer time without the blushes 😂

Are you really serious?. You are on the same longitude as France but you align your time zone with London, on a very different longitude. At least you have made me laugh out loud sitting on my own. The last person to do that was basil faulty 😂

Junkyard Tom

If Unionists had any brains at all they'd be building goodwill in preparation for a United Ireland. There will be little sympathy for (former) Unionists bleating over links to GB when it comes to a UI joining Shengen, and aligning with European Time, which they'd despise as an attack on their 'Britishness'.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118115680#Comment_118115680

Republicans seem to have got some solice every year for the last 100 by saying ‘unionists should prepare for a Ui as its coming next year’. I don’t begrudge them of that little dream.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118115738#Comment_118115738

The Republicans in your head, possibly.

In the real world, since I reached political awareness in the 1970s, I have never seen the Republican movement suggesting that a United Ireland was every anything but a very long game.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118115616#Comment_118115616

Paris is further east that London, downcow. Aligning with Paris would put us further from solar time than we now are, not nearer.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116149#Comment_118116149

What does accuracy matter when you can mask your insecurities by demeaning the people you share an island with?

If I recall correctly, the biggest issue is that we're about 25mins off GMT with actual solar time.....given that my work is largely international, the mess the scheduling mess that would result from not just rounding to the nearest hour would be a pain in the hole; I'll suffer Downcow's sneering for that convenience.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116169#Comment_118116169

Actually, right now, Dublin is closer to solar time (we're 9 minutes ahead of solar time) than either London (16 minutes behind) or Paris) 34 minutes ahead.

But we all have to yield to Belfast (7 minutes ahead). And Belfast must bow to Douglas (2 minutes ahead). And Douglas has to give place to Cumbernauld, where clock time is exactly the same as solar time.

Esel

Never mind what time it is - what century is it?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116196#Comment_118116196

In Cumbernauld? In Cumbernauld it's always about 1961.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114707#Comment_118114707

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

How is it supremacist thinking to point out that it is practically impossible for native peoples to make colonisers and planters assimilate into their society.. Native Americans didn't manage it. Aborigines didn't manage it.

Did the fail miserably as well? Or is that sort of thing only levelled at the Irish?

Peregrinus

In Ireland, famously, we did get colonisers and planters to assimilate. The first wave became "more Irish than the Irish themselves". The English authorities were quite unhappy about it, as I recall.

Plus, it's a mistake to conflate the unionist/British community in NI with the descendants of planters and colonisers; the two groups overlap only to a small extent. The areas where unionism/British identity is strongest, Antrim and Down, were never planted, while some counties that were planted, like Cavan and Monaghan, have a strong nationalist majority.

The truth is that for much of history travel, and therefore social and economic connections, between the North East of Ireland and Scotland was much easier than travel between the North East and most of the rest of the country. This is because travel by water in boats was quicker and easier than overland travel. This last point is true for the whole of Ireland, but it played out differently in the North East because of the adjacency of Scotland. The British aspect of Northern Ireland's culture and society is the natural result of proximity to Scotland and regular population interchange and mixing with Scotlan much more than the forced outcome of colonisation and settlement by England.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118115616#Comment_118115616

You have some bizarre posts, but claiming Ireland and France are the same longitude tips the lot for me.

From this post it actually appears that you either don't know what longitude is or you have never seen a map of Europe.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116253#Comment_118116253

Downcow is nearly correct - well, nearly technically correct.

The westernmost point of France and the easternmost point of Ireland are separated by just 47' of longitude. Which is hardly anything, really.

As it happens, though, the easternmost point of Ireland lies in County Down — it's Burr Point, on the Ards Pensinsula. So if this is an argument for being in the same timezone as Paris, it's an argument that applies to Northern Ireland with more force than it does to the Republic.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116251#Comment_118116251

Another excellent post. I do appreciate that you are not quite as affected by prejudice on some issues as most of the rest of us (some more than others ). I love the way I totally disagree with some of your posts while agreeing strongly with others.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116253#Comment_118116253

Apologies. How silly of me. You are almost entirely correct.

I should have given Spain as example. Anyhow you emphasise my point for me. Ireland (and Uk) sit within the longitude of Western Europe. Can we all agree that if the British mainland did not exist that Ireland would be aligned with Western European time?

the point I am making is that many on here try to goade by saying Belfast is not as British as Finchley, based on difference. I am pointing out one of many ways (maybe not the greatest example and only highlighted on the day of the timechange) that Galway differs from EU and aligns with Uk.

that’s all

joeguevara

It has always been clear that the Torys have a disdain for Northern Ireland. The words of Edward Carson in 1921 are testament to this ‘What a fool I was. I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative party into power.”

The fact that the bizarre Brexit song that Boris recommended be sung in schools every day which doesn’t even include Northern Ireland with its ‘One Britain’ mantra is a kick in the face for any Unionist who believes that they are better off in a Brexit U.K. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/brexit-uk-government-asks-children-sing-one-nation-one-britain-2021-6%3Famp

downcow

Just saw this.

“Irish Govs position is that the Protocol is sacred. However, utilising Article 16 within that sacred Protocol is impermissible because… well because it doesn’t suit nationalism’s objectives.”

would you be inclined to agree with it?

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116317#Comment_118116317

Where did you see that?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116307#Comment_118116307

We are on Western European time, as you'll discover if you check the Wikipedia article on the Western European Time Zone. So is the UK.

It's France and Spain that are the anomalies here - they are both on Central European Time, despite this putting them further from solar time than WET would. They used to be on WET but they switched - France, because of the vast amount of physical, social and economic connections across its eastern border and Spain, because of France.

There's a trade-off between being on clock time which is close to solar time, and being on clock time which is convenient for your social and economic connections. France prefers to be on CET rather than WET because the inconvenience of Paris being 34 minutes ahead of solar time is not much greater than the inconvenience of Paris being 26 minutes behind it, as they would be if they were on WET, and it's more than offset by the convenience of being on CET for transport, social, commercial etc links with other countries in the CET time zone.

The further from the equator you are, the greater the inconvenience of being out of synch with solar time. Great Britain lies pretty much within the same longitudes as France and does far more business with CET countries than with the other WET countries (which are, basically, Ireland and Portugal), but hasn't switched to CET. Ireland's centre of population is further north than the UK's so it's not a given that, even if the UK weren't there, Ireland would opt for CET.

lurleen lumpkin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116317#Comment_118116317

Who are you quoting here?😂

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116307#Comment_118116307

This is one you should really go back to the drawing board on, Downcow.

Due to shared history, Ireland and Britain have much in common, no one has denied that....but you're really grasping at straws with the reasoning behind your example.

Perhaps you should follow the advice you shared earlier on the thread and just leave it at, 'I was wrong'....

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116398#Comment_118116398

🤔 interesting how many posters need to know who said something before they can decide whether they agree or not #trythinkingforyourself

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116421#Comment_118116421

How can you agree on whether it is the government’s position without any clue on whether it is the government’s position. On the face of it it’s incorrect and a misunderstanding of what triggering article 16 means as even if triggered the requirements of the protocol are sacrosanct. Also the Northern Ireland protocol benefits both sides of Northern Ireland and not just nationalists.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116317#Comment_118116317

I would not agree with the statement. I think utilising Article 16 within the protocol should be done by the UK if they feel that serves them best. However triggering article 16 and then complaining about the repercussions of triggering it should not be done.

Now, where did you see that statement?