Things self builders fail to take into consideration/underestimate

newhouse87

riewomann wrote: »

That's a lot of house for 300k.

Good contractors are expensive. Quality tradesmen are expensive. Nice finishes are expensive.

Would be very interested in how your dream house turns out at just over 1k per s/m. Any project I currently have on the books are running significantly higher and elsewhere in the industry it is similar. Of course paying tax may increase it a bit, oh and certificates of compliance.

A set of tender documents can be most helpful to deal with claims, and I've yet to see a job where there wasn't one.

For example so what would you think the plumbing cost for this house, underfloor heating with daikin air pump cost? What would you think the blockwork would cost?

riewomann

newhouse87 wrote: »

For example so what would you think the plumbing cost for this house, underfloor heating with daikin air pump cost? What would you think the blockwork would cost?

I've found costs are usually calculated based on detailed drawings illustrating connections, specifications etc...

I wouldn't really be in a position to comment based on a few words of text.

Based on the size of the house I would hope you have everything in order, as it is quite a large volume to heat. Possibly allow for a heat recovery system with some of the savings.

newhouse87

riewomann wrote: »

I've found costs are usually calculated based on detailed drawings illustrating connections, specifications etc...

I wouldn't really be in a position to comment based on a few words of text.

Based on the size of the house I would hope you have everything in order, as it is quite a large volume to heat. Possibly allow for a heat recovery system with some of the savings.

Ber completed by engineer and yes heat recovery system is going in. Im reckoning 300k could be bit over not sure yet but i know for a fact its going to be alot cheaper then a contractor. Even if i didn't have my father over-seeing it i would do it this way like many of my friends without having to take a year off work. I know nobody who self built who had to take a year off from work. Crazy suggestion.

riewomann

newhouse87 wrote: »

Ber completed by engineer and yes heat recovery system is going in. Im reckoning 300k could be bit over not sure yet but i know for a fact its going to be alot cheaper then a contractor. Even if i didn't have my father over-seeing it i would do it this way like many of my friends without having to take a year off work. I know nobody who self built who had to take a year off from work. Crazy suggestion.

Well it sounds like you have it all under control which is great. A contingency fund is no harm to have encase unforseen difficulties arise. The kind of plumbing system you describe would be quite complex on a build of this size and co-ordination witht he electricial contractor be paramount. Oh and if you aren't already go with the largest size ducting you can accomadate to keep noise to a minimum.

All the best with it.

Biker1

Don't forget to add in the 30 plus percent increase in material costs. This is bringing many self builds to a halt at the moment.

newhouse87

Biker1 wrote: »

Don't forget to add in the 30 plus percent increase in material costs. This is bringing many self builds to a halt at the moment.

yeah had most of the stuff got, timber insulation etc and had prices for blocks and concrete agreed which they honored.

mikepdaly

There are some major things that using a reputable building contractor will provide, that are generally over looked until its too late.

HSA regulations state that a client has a legal duty to hire a competant Project Supervisor Design Phase (PSDP), typically your Engineer/Architect, but only if you appoint them to do so, and they accept the role.
And also a client has a legal duty to engage a competant Project Supervisor Construction Stage (PSCS), generally the builder/main contractor, as long as there are competant to do so. You, the client, are responsible for this appointment. The PSCS is responsible generally for the health & safety of any person involved in the project, and will be liable if there is negligence which causes an accident on the site. Without a PCSC, the client will be liable.

The above also ties in to another major element, proper insurance cover for Public, Employers, and Contractors All-risk Insurance. This will be required should any accident happen. You as a self builder may take out insurance, however, I would imagine that on a self build, most insurance companies would find plenty of reasons that the insurance would not cover an accident on a self-build, due to certain aspects of terms not being complied with, i.e. a PSCS, properly insured subcontractors, compliant scaffolding, etc.
You may say that individual subcontractors that you engage will provide their own insurance, but be aware that subcontractors insurance will only cover their employees, not themselves, and generally will not provide anywhere near the kind of all emcompasssing cover that a Main Contractor would.
If any person has a serious accident on a self-build, and incomplete complaince with H&S, and proper insurance, etc in place, then the client will be held at least partially liable, and possibly majorly so. If the accident leads to this person not being able to work again in their trade, and needs to have a substantial payout, then it could happen that the building would stop, and have to be sold standing to raise funds to provide to this person for future expenses. I know if a case where this has happened.

Warranty/Guarantee. Things can go wrong, even when everyone does their job correctly. I know of a project where materials purchased from a reputable supplier, were not being specifically what was ordered, i.e. exterior grade plywood being ordered, and a substandard, but stamped, product being supplied, which did not have the correct glue used in the manufacture of same. The remdeial work on the project cost in excess of 100K. If it were not for the builder retaining proof of purchase, proof of specific product ordered, and proof of delivery of said product to the particular project, then this home owner would have been left high and dry with no where to turn.

If a builder/main contractor makes 10% profit on a project, and covers the risk & cost of the above items, then i think it is worht every penny to a client.

Also, just a note in relation to you purchasing materials yourself. You will pay 23% V.A.T. at present, where as if your builder invoices you for them, they will charge you 13.5% V.A.T. So even it they are 10% profit, there really is no saving. Yet if you have supplied the material on a self build, any issue with these materials, and only you as the supplier of same is responsible for the issue.

Building a house is more than likely the single bigest expense you will ever have, so in my opinion, not going with a main contractor is madness, when you look at what can happen if anything serious goes wrong.

And yes, i am a main contractor

Best of luck though, i really do wish anyone well, and hope nothing goes wrong if you have gone down the self build route.

newhouse87

mikepdaly wrote: »

There are some major things that using a reputable building contractor will provide, that are generally over looked until its too late.

HSA regulations state that a client has a legal duty to hire a competant Project Supervisor Design Phase (PSDP), typically your Engineer/Architect, but only if you appoint them to do so, and they accept the role.
And also a client has a legal duty to engage a competant Project Supervisor Construction Stage (PSCS), generally the builder/main contractor, as long as there are competant to do so. You, the client, are responsible for this appointment. The PSCS is responsible generally for the health & safety of any person involved in the project, and will be liable if there is negligence which causes an accident on the site. Without a PCSC, the client will be liable.

The above also ties in to another major element, proper insurance cover for Public, Employers, and Contractors All-risk Insurance. This will be required should any accident happen. You as a self builder may take out insurance, however, I would imagine that on a self build, most insurance companies would find plenty of reasons that the insurance would not cover an accident on a self-build, due to certain aspects of terms not being complied with, i.e. a PSCS, properly insured subcontractors, compliant scaffolding, etc.
You may say that individual subcontractors that you engage will provide their own insurance, but be aware that subcontractors insurance will only cover their employees, not themselves, and generally will not provide anywhere near the kind of all emcompasssing cover that a Main Contractor would.
If any person has a serious accident on a self-build, and incomplete complaince with H&S, and proper insurance, etc in place, then the client will be held at least partially liable, and possibly majorly so. If the accident leads to this person not being able to work again in their trade, and needs to have a substantial payout, then it could happen that the building would stop, and have to be sold standing to raise funds to provide to this person for future expenses. I know if a case where this has happened.

Warranty/Guarantee. Things can go wrong, even when everyone does their job correctly. I know of a project where materials purchased from a reputable supplier, were not being specifically what was ordered, i.e. exterior grade plywood being ordered, and a substandard, but stamped, product being supplied, which did not have the correct glue used in the manufacture of same. The remdeial work on the project cost in excess of 100K. If it were not for the builder retaining proof of purchase, proof of specific product ordered, and proof of delivery of said product to the particular project, then this home owner would have been left high and dry with no where to turn.

If a builder/main contractor makes 10% profit on a project, and covers the risk & cost of the above items, then i think it is worht every penny to a client.

Also, just a note in relation to you purchasing materials yourself. You will pay 23% V.A.T. at present, where as if your builder invoices you for them, they will charge you 13.5% V.A.T. So even it they are 10% profit, there really is no saving. Yet if you have supplied the material on a self build, any issue with these materials, and only you as the supplier of same is responsible for the issue.

Building a house is more than likely the single bigest expense you will ever have, so in my opinion, not going with a main contractor is madness, when you look at what can happen if anything serious goes wrong.

And yes, i am a main contractor

Best of luck though, i really do wish anyone well, and hope nothing goes wrong if you have gone down the self build route.

Actually sent off them af1 and af2 forms recently as i self appointed myself psdp and pscs as im allowed to do so, also took out public liability insurance. With regards to the vat 13.5 vs 23%, i have outlined how my savings in other areas will cover that. If materials are wrong i still have buyer protection as im retaining every invoice which is all done electronically now anyway. I know they're pros to a contractor but all the op got was negative feedback about self builds so im just highlighting the pros- saving money been the main and obvious one.

BorneTobyWilde

Building a decent 4 bedroom single story house yourself is easy. Geez it's only bricks and mortar.

fits

Built this house three years ago and had a contractor do it. He was amazing and the house is fantastic.

There is absolutely no way I would go the self build route. No way.

ECO_Mental

All of the above but get a full detailed BOQ done and agreed with your builder is number 1. This allows easy management of extras and conflict going forward.

I'm currently building and running at 3.7% extras which I think is good the main reasons for this are

• Works at the site entrance to satisfy the planners eg drainage at the entrance to stop water going on to the road, sight lines. This wasn't picked up on the tendered scope as it has to be agreed with the local area engineer on site. +€6k
• Flooring, way under specified this in the PC sum in the BOQ. I could go with laminate flooring as specced but we decided to up this to engineered timber flooring as we felt we would not be happy if we did. +€8k approx
• Went from 3kWp Solar PV panel to 6kWp panels +€2.7k
• Upped the spec on the site fencing +€2k
• Probably spend a bit more on the electrical fit out as when I went around with the electrician I did put in more sockets and Cat6 network points. Dont have a number on this yet.
• Kitchen probably will spend more on this waiting on quote for this, might go over a couple of grand.
• But I also dropped and changed the spec to saved myself 10k as well so its kinda balancing out.... -€10k

As you can see most of the works is us increasing the specification so its down to us. The only thing that caught us out was the works required by my planning conditions so look at these and see is there anything in there that might catch you...

Padre_Pio

newhouse87 wrote: »

nope but have my prices got, my friend got quote for 260k for 2000 sq ft house, thats no interior furnishings or kitchen, im estimating i will have 2600sq ft house done all in 300k including 50k site and all fees etc. His will be near 400k all in.

So, to summarise this massively derailed thread:

You're advising someone to go the self-build route, but you haven't done it yet. You say it's cheaper, but
A: You have a family member with experience overseeing the work
B: Your friends are the ones doing the work
C: You're paying in cash to keep the cost down.

I don't think your experience is in any way relevant to the majority of people who consider building a house.

newhouse87

Padre_Pio wrote: »

So, to summarise this massively derailed thread:

You're advising someone to go the self-build route, but you haven't done it yet. You say it's cheaper, but
A: You have a family member with experience overseeing the work
B: Your friends are the ones doing the work
C: You're paying in cash to keep the cost down.

I don't think your experience is in any way relevant to the majority of people who consider building a house.

1. My father is pricing materials along wth me, im involved in every aspect, he does have more experience then me that is true .Im in the middle of it, have seen quotes form contractors for smaller houses so yes 100% will be cheaper to self build
2. No, local tradesmen are doing the work, they wont want to do bad job as local rep is important
3. Everybody who does a self build will pay some cash.

Its all negative here about people self building, the only positive was from a poster who has also self built. So people who did not self build have no experience of it yet are able to lay out all the negatives to self building.

So actually maybe read my posts before you come up with your inaccurate summation.

BTW any QS will tell you its cheaper to self build, its not even an argument.

the_pen_turner

newhouse87 wrote: »

1. My father is pricing materials along wth me, im involved in every aspect, he does have more experience then me that is true .Im in the middle of it, have seen quotes form contractors for smaller houses so yes 100% will be cheaper to self build
2. No, local tradesmen are doing the work, they wont want to do bad job as local rep is important
3. Everybody who does a self build will pay some cash.

Its all negative here about people self building, the only positive was from a poster who has also self built. So people who did not self build have no experience of it yet are able to lay out all the negatives to self building.

So actually maybe read my posts before you come up with your inaccurate summation.

BTW any QS will tell you its cheaper to self build, its not even an argument.

The op asked for the negative side of it. There are positives to self building but that's not what this thread is about

Padre_Pio

newhouse87 wrote: »

1. My father is pricing materials along wth me, im involved in every aspect, he does have more experience then me that is true .Im in the middle of it, have seen quotes form contractors for smaller houses so yes 100% will be cheaper to self build
2. No, local tradesmen are doing the work, they wont want to do bad job as local rep is important
3. Everybody who does a self build will pay some cash.

Its all negative here about people self building, the only positive was from a poster who has also self built. So people who did not self build have no experience of it yet are able to lay out all the negatives to self building.

So actually maybe read my posts before you come up with your inaccurate summation.

BTW any QS will tell you its cheaper to self build, its not even an argument.

Not disagreeing with anything you said, but your original post:

nope but have my prices got, my friend got quote for 260k for 2000 sq ft house, thats no interior furnishings or kitchen, im estimating i will have 2600sq ft house done all in 300k including 50k site and all fees etc. His will be near 400k all in.

doesn't mention ALL the caveats that came out after it and it is disingenuous. It looks like you're undertaking all the work yourself, while you're actually getting friends and family who are involved in trades to do most of the work for you.

You're in a very unique situation and you've managed to get a good deal, but it's not applicable to the vast majority considering a self build.

newhouse87

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Not disagreeing with anything you said, but your original post:

doesn't mention ALL the caveats that came out after it and it is disingenuous.
You're in a very unique situation and you've managed to get a good deal, but it's not applicable to the vast majority considering a self build.

The only caveat i see is that my father is pricing materials along with me, we ring at least 3 suppliers for materials. Everybody in my locality do self builds bar this one friend. Most of the pitfall people are pointing out can also apply to contractors. My point is if you are not in a rush- self build. For instance a tradesman is a week late for me, i expect these things and dont stress, it happens.

The other day for instance, needed steel frame for bay window, was quoted near 4k by building supplier, builder recommended maybe buying shot blast steel and getting welder to cut to fit, saving over 2.5k doing it this way. Contractors would not do this, they would just price for steel frame from supplier. my engineer said it was perfectly fine to do this.

newhouse87

the_pen_turner wrote: »

The op asked for the negative side of it. There are positives to self building but that's not what this thread is about

TBf you have a point, was bored at work so got involved.

dh1985

I do have to laugh at the talk from the construction professionals and contractors regarding self builds and issues which might arise as a result of not using a contractor etc. As if after the last boom there wasnt issues with contractor built houses with which these same construction professionals were well and happy signing off on. In fact I know a few local horror story estates built just 15 years ago but I dont know any one off self build horror stories.
In fact before I embarked on a self build I had looked at buying a house. Went to see a few that would have been detached houses in small scale estates and it was on seeing the workmanship in these that I decided to build my own.
You would also swear building a house was the same as doing open heart surgery the way lads are talking in here
OP If you can get recommendations locally for good trades men starting off then it will take alot of the pain out of it. Get a detailed list of materials they require well before they start, have it priced, purchased and onsite before they are scheduled to start. Communicate with your tradesmen and have clearly defined requirements for each of them. Good tradesmen will manage themselves after that.
Theres no denying you will have to eat sleep and breathe it for the time it takes to complete but there a significant savings to be made.

Gumbo

dh1985 wrote: »

I do have to laugh at the talk from the construction professionals and contractors regarding self builds and issues which might arise as a result of not using a contractor etc. As if after the last boom there wasnt issues with contractor built houses with which these same construction professionals were well and happy signing off on. In fact I know a few local horror story estates built just 15 years ago but I dont know any one off self build horror stories.
In fact before I embarked on a self build I had looked at buying a house. Went to see a few that would have been detached houses in small scale estates and it was on seeing the workmanship in these that I decided to build my own.
You would also swear building a house was the same as doing open heart surgery the way lads are talking in here
OP If you can get recommendations locally for good trades men starting off then it will take alot of the pain out of it. Get a detailed list of materials they require well before they start, have it priced, purchased and onsite before they are scheduled to start. Communicate with your tradesmen and have clearly defined requirements for each of them. Good tradesmen will manage themselves after that.
Theres no denying you will have to eat sleep and breathe it for the time it takes to complete but there a significant savings to be made.

Of course. But people talk about self build then they bring in trades so it’s not a self build, it’s self managed.

Some things from your post can work though but be careful having materials ordered too far in advance for particular trades.

For example, one self I went into last year had issues with Irish water. The home owner had ordered the pipe work for the plumber to lay for the mains water feed. Site finished but IW came back looking for SN8 pipe. Seems the time between ordered and certifying, IW changed their requirements.

Just one thing to be mindful of.

Penn

dh1985 wrote: »

I do have to laugh at the talk from the construction professionals and contractors regarding self builds and issues which might arise as a result of not using a contractor etc. As if after the last boom there wasnt issues with contractor built houses with which these same construction professionals were well and happy signing off on. In fact I know a few local horror story estates built just 15 years ago but I dont know any one off self build horror stories.

You're mixing up two different issues though. Getting a main contractor doesn't mean that celtic tiger or otherwise shoddy workmanship won't occur. But that also doesn't mean self-build is the solution to that just because you don't know of any self-build horror stories (because they're less likely to make the papers than estates with numerous houses/apartments with issues, or contractors who ballsed up a lot of local jobs).

Self-build can absolutely work. With the right advice, good experienced trades, proper planning, and a professional also inspecting and signing off on the works, there's no reason why it can't. But it's not for everyone, and if someone doesn't feel confident about being able to manage it, they shouldn't do it, because too much can go wrong and mistakes/inexperience could end up costing more in the long run.

Gumbo

Penn wrote: »

You're mixing up two different issues though. Getting a main contractor doesn't mean that celtic tiger or otherwise shoddy workmanship won't occur. But that also doesn't mean self-build is the solution to that just because you don't know of any self-build horror stories (because they're less likely to make the papers than estates with numerous houses/apartments with issues, or contractors who ballsed up a lot of local jobs).

Self-build can absolutely work. With the right advice, good experienced trades, proper planning, and a professional also inspecting and signing off on the works, there's no reason why it can't. But it's not for everyone, and if someone doesn't feel confident about being able to manage it, they shouldn't do it, because too much can go wrong and mistakes/inexperience could end up costing more in the long run.

And most self builders won’t admit to Johnny in the pub that they messed up on a few things!

TheMilkyPirate

Absolutely amazing to me that newhouse87 got a red card for his posting in this thread. Ridiculous actually more than amazing.

newhouse87

TheMilkyPirate wrote: »

Absolutely amazing to me that newhouse87 got a red card for his posting in this thread. Ridiculous actually more than amazing.

A ridiculous Yellow card i think it was man.

Oh sorry it was red, just seen it back a couple of pages, better go so and leave the contractors have their opinions only.

newhouse87

Gumbo wrote: »

And most self builders won’t admit to Johnny in the pub that they messed up on a few things!

Yeah because most people down the pub will admit that a contractor ruined their house while building.