Rory McIlroy - 4 Time Major Winner

Benicetomonty

First over simplification is to equate a choke with losing a tournament. In every event, there are wins and losses that go way beyond who takes the trophy at the end of the week. Trying to make a cut, a top 25, a top 10…. guys choke in ways that we never hear about. However, given that Rory was obviously in it for one thing only:

On 14, he missed a fairway. With a driver. With 180mph clubhead speed. At a US Open where fairways tend to be narrower than usual. It happens. Still made par.

Agree totally about 15. Great shot, wrong club. Selecting the wrong club doesnt constitute a choke for me. Name 1 other example in pro golf where a wrong club (a minor misclub; Im not accepting Van de Velde here) could be equated to a choke. Monty at Winged Foot was a mishit, not a misclub. Mickelson off 18 was the wrong club. Not a misclub. Big difference.

16. First putt was the issue. Have already explained why.

17. He made par. Wouldve taken it on the tee.

18. Not his best drive. Unpredictable 2nd, wasnt his best. Brilliant chip. Regardless, left himself with a 4 footer every bit as nasty as Dennis Wise and slightly pushed it.

Just dont see where the choke was. The only really questionable, nervy, needlessly overzealous shot he hit was his 1st putt on 16. Tee shots on 17 and 18 were slight pulls but hardly chokeworthy.

I mean, why limit ourselves to the last 5 holes if you want to equate minor errors with chokes? He scrambled like crazy through 2- 8 to avoid bogeys after his birdie on 1. And the 5th hole was a calamity even though most would agree his 2nd shot, while not perfectly struck, did not deserve to wind up where it did. Again, I just cant accept his performance over the final 4 holes as a choke. Couple of misjudgements, couple of v missable short putts and 1 bad misclub. All regrettably condensed within those aforementioned 4 holes.

For me, it doesnt compare with the 4 proper chokes I can recall in recent memory, which would be Goosen at Pinehurst in 05, Baddely at Oakmont in 07, Rory at Augusta in 2011 and Scott at Lytham in 2012. And Il give Badds a bit of credence because of his relative inexperience in the position, the difficulty of the course and his playing partner that Sunday (Tiger).

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122289382#Comment_122289382

Your definition was:

For me a choke is a sustained sequence of bad shots that are completely out of character for an elite golfer.

He made a mistake on every hole. Every hole.

In relation to 14, go back and watch that drive. It wasn't anything to do with tight fairways, it was a horrible pull hook. He'd been driving it so well until the point he saw his name at the top of the leaderboard.

He missed the green on 17. You're completely ignoring the tee shot. He missed the green…

From taking the lead, he didn't give himself a single chance to extend it after playing world class golf all day.

If that's not a choke, i dunno what is. Call it what you want, bottle, collapse etc. He had a two shot lead and played the final 5 holes in +3 to not even make a playoff. That's choking

You're saying:

• Missed fairway
• Missed green
• Missed putt
• Missed green
• Missed fairway and putt

Isn't a sustained sequence of bad shots?

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122289457#Comment_122289457

Ive already told you my understanding of what a choke is and given you clear examples. Mcilroy's doesnt fit my definition. He did not hit truly bad shots over and over again.

14 was a bad drive. But left was no worse than right. Would have been different if there was water or OB left but there wasnt. Not his best swing but he made sure to hit it in a place he knew he could recover from. And he did.

Lots of players missed the green on 17. I get the feeling you think it's a given that a pro will hit a turtle back green from 190 yards without breaking a sweat, even before you take into account the fact that its the US Open. Golf is hard.

I'd argue he had a decent chance for birdie on 16 after his drive. Half a chance after his 2nd even. Just hit a v poor first putt and made bogey.

And again, I hate to be pedantic but at that level, barely a hole goes by that a pro doesnt make a mistake. Ben Hogan said if he plays a round where he hits 3 perfect shots, hed be satisfied. The game is about misses. Rory hit a bad drive on 10. He also overhit the putt for birdie. But he made a 4. Was that hole a choke?

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122289580#Comment_122289580

Do you think the pressure got to Rory with 5 holes to go?

CalamariFritti

Jesus are you all still at this? 😂

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122289600#Comment_122289600

Pressure gets to all of them. Rory is no different. For me though, the only real manifestation of that pressure was his 1st putt on 16. Just a needless, over excitable pop at the birdie try. Catastrophic in hindsight.

kyleman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122289654#Comment_122289654

Pressure got to Bryson. He barely hit a decent drive all day but got lucky so many times.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122289654#Comment_122289654

None of this was in hindsight, everyone I know said it while it was happening.

the only real manifestation of that pressure was his 1st putt on 16

He shot +3 with 5 to play after playing the first 14 holes in -4. How is that not the pressure getting to him???

I guess well agree to disagree. I think it's stunning you don't think the pressure got to him on any of the other shots

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122289675#Comment_122289675

+3 with 4 to play. Dont know why you regard his par or any par on the 14th as some kind of underachievement.

Nobody said he wasnt under pressure and that he didnt feel it. Wouldnt be human if he didnt. Regardless, based on my observations of his golf coming in and in comparison with sequences of performances in the past which I and others have regarded as legitimate 'chokes', subjective though that term may be, I cannot classify McIlroy's loss by that term.

Agree to disagree sounds good. As a final thought, I really do hope the '24 US Open is not the defining moment in the majors post 2014 for Rory. A generational talent, and well capable of winning more majors, allbeit this is going to be very difficult to absorb.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122289760#Comment_122289760

He felt the pressure but it only manifested in one of his shots when he shot +3 in 5 holes...? That makes zero sense but sure, we'll go round in circles.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122289783#Comment_122289783

Again with the +3 the last 5! He was +2 the last 6. He was +1 the last 7. He was E par the last 9. On 10, he hit a bad drive, an average 3rd and bashed the putt. But because it went in, youre happy just to say he made 4 birdie, ergo played the hole perfectly.

Writing off his play over the last 4 as a choke displays no appreciation for the nuances of this game, particularly on a US Open layout and most particularly on this US Open layout.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122289833#Comment_122289833

Again with the +3 the last 5!

Because that's where he choked. That's when he took the lead. It's whataboutery on the other holes.

Writing off his play over the last 4 as a choke displays no appreciation for the nuances of this game

Bryson +1, Cantlay +1, Finau -1, Pavon -1, Hideki 0, Henley 0, Xander -1, Burns-1, Conners +1, Thompson 0. That's how the rest of the top 10 played the final 5. Why did Rory, who was playing fantastic golf, suddenly stop playing fantastic golf? Pressure

You're completely ignoring that 4 pars wins him the tournament, 3 pars and he's in a playoff. You'd back him to get that done 100% of the time, he didn't. Why? Pressure.

It's an absolutely ridiculous position to take that the pressure only manifested itself in one shot. It's stupid. He went from playing brilliant golf to bad golf, why? Pressure. It's the simple.

Good luck.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122289861#Comment_122289861

Again, a choke is not something that happens exclusively in the last 3, 4, or 9 holes of a tournament. His 1st round at Portrush in 2019 was Rory's biggest choke since 2011 in my opinion. Rattling off the scores of 7 or certainly 6 guys who had no chance to win last Sunday by the time they hit the back 9 is hardly relevant as to what constitutes a choke.

Rory did not play fantastic or brilliant golf. A US Open does not allow you to play fantastic golf. He hit the odd brilliant shot certainly. He was, however, extremely defensive between holes 2 to 8 and bogied 5 in the middle of that stretch. He was blessed on 10 that his putt hit the hole but wasnt as fortunate on 16 and 18.

Saying that 4 pars wins him the tournament is reductive to say the least. He had no way of knowing that and even if he did, its like saying to Monty in 2006 in Winged Foot on the Friday, hey, just make 54 pars and you'll win by 6. Your notion that the world's best can just par or birdie a stretch of holes on command is flattering to them (Im sure), but also ridiculous. Stupid even, as you might say yourself.

But hey, agree to disagree.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122289903#Comment_122289903

 A US Open does not allow you to play fantastic golf. 

This is nonsense. Of course it does.

a choke is not something that happens exclusively in the last 3, 4, or 9 holes of a tournament.

Where did I state it's exclusive to the end? It's not. He choked at Portrush. Ludwig choked at the start of the final round.

Choking can happen in the back 9 on a Sunday. You can be brilliant for 17 holes and choke on 18.

Saying that 4 pars wins him the tournament is reductive to say the least. He had no way of knowing that and even if he did, its like saying to Monty in 2006

Are you trying to say Monty wasn't a choker? Man is the personification of choking in majors.

He was 2 shots clear with 5 to play. It's a US Open, a tough US Open. There's nothing reductive about it.

Your notion that the world's best can just par or birdie a stretch of holes on command is flattering to them (Im sure), but also ridiculous.

Rory doesn't hit +3 on those 5 holes playing a casual round. It's ridiculous to say he shouldn't close out the tournament 2 clear with 5 to play.

It's ridiculous to say missing 2/3 par 3 greens and both fairway badly wasn't pressure. It's idiotic.

It's crazy you don't think pressure was a factor.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122288883#Comment_122288883

Well three in a union, it's made up of States. It's not the same but it's like the EU in ways with a population of over 300m people.

Only the Masters is less than 100 years old and it's played on the same course every year so it'll never move.

So it's down to the US Open and PGA championships.

The US Open is run by the USGA so it's unlikely to ever move outside the USA.

The PGA championship is run by the PGA of America. It's professional golfers who run it, not the PGA tour. It's the only one that could move.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122289933#Comment_122289933

I think you just like saying the word choke to be honest. If Rory had played fantastic golf, hed have won by 8, like hes done in the past. And like Kaymer did in 2014. He didnt.

Monty made a mess of the 72nd at Winged Foot. Did he choke the US Open in 92? The PGA in 95,where he birdied the last 4 holes?

Again, never said pressure wasnt a factor. I just dont think his finish was poor enough to be considered a choke. Unless you consider every loss in a big event to be one. As you seem to do.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122290109#Comment_122290109

Again, never said pressure wasnt a factor.

You said it only manifested itself in one shot, the putt. Which means it wasn't a significant factor in any of his other poor shots.

Your point is inconsistent and makes no sense. It's illogical.

I just dont think his finish was poor enough to be considered a choke.

+3 in 5 holes pal is awful. Around 60 golfers did better than +3 in the closing stretch that day. How's is that not a poor enough finish considering the other 14 holes?

It's such a ridiculous take.

Musicrules

Rory played some great stuff at the Open. He was patient, he had some bad breaks and putts didn't drop all the time but he kept his head, didn't get frustrated and put himself in a great position. He put himself in the winning position. He had all the hard work done. But then the pressure got to him. There's no way around that. Use choke or whatever word you want to but that's what happened. You could see it with how he approached shots even, nevermind the putts. I don't know if he uses a psychologist, I presume he does but the mind is what has stopped him from winning a major in the last 10 years. If he can work with a professional to try to focus on the golf he played for 68 holes and to work on the anxiety of seeing the finish line, I think he can get over the line sooner rather than later. It's a tough ask though. It's not easy winning these majors. Let's hope he gets one soon.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122290206#Comment_122290206

I never said it wasnt a poor finish. Dont know why youre so eager to put words in my mouth. Poor does not equal choke. Furthermore, since youve now written off a 7 time European number 1 and hall of famer a choker because of one bad finish in a major, Im more convinced than ever that you dont fully understand the concept. A few poor shots do not constitute a choke. If you can concede (and thats a big if!) that his loss in the 2011 Masters was worse than the way he lost the US Open than you can see there are differing levels of disappointing finishes. The former was a choke. The latter wasnt.

Ive been entirely consistent but can go over it again for your benefit: the first putt on 16 was by far the most inexplicably bad shot he hit, with the only feasible reasoning being that the pressure got to him. All of the other poor shots he hit can be explained either through respective shot difficulty or circumstance, without resorting to your favourite word, whether you like it or not.

By your logic, every golfer in the world is a choker because anybody who has played the game has lost a competition at some point in their life. Monty is a choker. Rory choker. Phil choker. Tiger (75 last round in 2009 USPGA) choker. Choke choke choke choke choke choke choke choke ad nauseum.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122290638#Comment_122290638

Furthermore, since youve now written off a 7 time European number 1 and hall of famer a choker because of one bad finish in a major

You don't think Monty was a choker in majors. That says it all.

You don't think making a mistake off the tee in 4 of the final 5 holes when you take the lead is choking. (Plus two bad putts, that's 6 mistakes at least in 5 holes)

There's one person here who doesn't understand what choking is and it aint me. Pressure got to Rory and he couldnt handle it, that's choking

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122290805#Comment_122290805

Yeah, Monty's 4 birdies in the last 4 holes at Riviera in the 1995 USPGA to make the playoff was a choke alright. By your 'logic'.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122290812#Comment_122290812

Now who's putting words in whos mouth?

A choke is when you can't handle the pressure and make bad shots or bad decisions. That's exactly what happened to Rory. The pressure got to him.

You're saying the pressure only got to Rory on one shot, the first putt. That's ridiculous.

Monty in 06 is widely reported as his biggest choke in the US Open. But if you want to argue by analogy, all that happens is we argue about the analogy, Monty isn't relevant as to what happened on Sunday.

Benicetomonty

Oh, Im sorry, did you not refer to Monty as a 'choker in majors'? Oh, wait yes you did. And then you were presented with a clear example where Monty did, in fact, not choke at a major where he had a chance to win, thereby ridiculing your specific stance on that issue. But sure yeah, I put words in your mouth :D

The Monty example is perfectly relevant to Sunday's events and came about quite organically. Dont backtrack now just because he actually lost a major that he didnt throw away!

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122290911#Comment_122290911

Monty choked in 06. Monty never won a major because he couldn't handle the pressure. He's the greatest player to never win one.

Monty was a choker in majors doesn't mean he choked every single time.

This thread is about Rory. When he took the lead he made 4 mistakes off the tee in the next 5 holes. How was that not the pressure getting to him?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122290911#Comment_122290911

I don’t think there is as much pressure on a player who behind with 4 holes to go and makes 4 birdies, I really am not going to look up the 1995 PGA, but being beaten by someone who made 4 birdies in the last 4 holes, is very different from being beaten by someone who played them in 1 over, after the runner up was 2 ahead with 5 to go.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122290638#Comment_122290638

By your logic, every golfer in the world is a choker because anybody who has played the game has lost a competition at some point in their life. Monty is a choker. Rory choker. Phil choker. Tiger (75 last round in 2009 USPGA) choker. Choke choke choke choke choke choke choke choke ad nauseum.

If you honestly think that's what I'm saying, you're arguing in bad faith.

Losing doesn't make you a choker. Just because you win in one tournament doesnt mean you can't choke in another. Equally, saying someone was a choker doesn't apply to every tournament they ever played.

Letting the pressure get to you and because of that you lose the tournament is what I think everyone would define as choking. That happened to Rory. You say it only manifested in one shot, the putt. That's crazy

There are other definitions of choking e.g. Rory Portrush but in the context of Sunday, that's what the general term would mean, in my opinion.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122290944#Comment_122290944

'Monty was a choker in majors' but not in all of them is not a coherent point of view. By definition, if he performed exceptionally well, even once, under the gun (and he did), then he was not a 'major choker'. For sure, his most disappointing loss was in a major, and I can understand why people refer to that double on 18 as a choke, certainly moreso than I can understand the same terminology being applied to Rory's finish. No shortage of relevant comparisons between both scenarios, whatever way you look at it. But when you label a player like Montgomerie a choker (before redefining him a major choker) then I think youve lost all degrees of perception. In a game where the very best lose nearly all the time, his win rate in world golf must be in the top 10pc of elite tour pros. Do you label all players a choker based on a bad finish to a tournament? Or even 2 or 3 bad finishes? Is Tiger a choker because he blew the 09 PGA? Or because he shot 81 at Muirfield in 2002? Or course not. Ridiculous logic.

Rory felt pressure, as all of them do. He had the winning of the event in his hands. It took a fantastic shot by BDC to beat him. I just dont see it as a choke. A poor finish yes, just not a choke.

The Big Easy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122290638#Comment_122290638

While I agree with the vast majority of your take, I can't quite get my head around why you think the first putt on 16 was the shocker?

It was a 25 foot birdie putt that he hit 2 foot 6 inches beyond the hole. If we say 18 inches beyond the cup is perfect pace, it was hardly a terrible putt. I'll concede nearly every putt is missable at that stage, but he really should be handling the come backer. That was tension/anxiety/pressure that caused that miss, not the first putt imo.

He hit a truly awful putt on Friday or Saturday where he a 30 foot birdie putt that he hit 10 foot long and made bogey. That was a concentration lapse more than anything, but I can't agree that giving yourself 2'6" after a birdie putt is an inexplicable error.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122290999#Comment_122290999

I don't care about Monty. He is a choker or he's not a choker, I didn't follow his career closely enough. I'm going off everything I heard and read

Rory felt pressure, as all of them do.

But that only led to one bad shot, the putt according to you. Correct?

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122290961#Comment_122290961

Dont entirely disagree. He may not have felt too much pressure when he birdied 15 and 16. He certainly did by the time he got to 18. And then again in the playoff, where he hit two quality shots into 15ft only for Elkington to hole it from 25ft in front of him. No rational person could accuse him of choking that event or that there was no pressure over the final few holes.