Rory McIlroy - 4 Time Major Winner

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122291003#Comment_122291003

I understand your point. In most circumstances, the 1st putt wouldnt have been regarded as a lapse but I think in this instance, it was. It called for lag and he gave it a run. He was ahead, playing great golf.. there was simply no need to do anything other than cosying it up and if it got sick in the front of the hole then happy days. Again, I understand your perspective but believe the circumstances made that 1st effort inexcusable.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122291023#Comment_122291023

I’m not sure hat you can hold that one tournament up as proof hat Monty never choked, any more that you could hold up last Sunday as proof that McIlroy has not choked.

Look, we all saw what happened, it was very unfortunate, very tough to watch on both a sporting, and human level. But it happened, he figuratively, dropped the ball. So let’s look forward to The Open in the hope that the mental effect will have passed.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122291058#Comment_122291058

Monty's finish in 2006 was a choke. But people are too quick to focus on just the 2nd shot. That was a mishit for sure, maybe a misclub too. Didnt help that Vijay was arseing around in the left rough for 10mins looking for a ruling and 171 yards into a US Open green is no piece of cake but theres no doubt that in that instance, the pressure got to him. But that was just the beginning. He had no 3rd shot but allowed himself to be frazzled and panicked, thinking he had to hole the 45ftr for par instead of resetting as Harrington did so well in the 2007 Open and realising that a bogey was in all likelihood going to get him in a playoff. The pressure not only contributed to a poor swing, astonishingly poor given his rep as an iron player, but also a meltdown psychologically. I just dont see Rory's last few holes in the same degree of 'collapse': therefore if Monty choked, I have to find some other terminology to describe Rory's loss. Again, for me, one was way worse than the other.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122291019#Comment_122291019

Correct. That putt was the only stroke where the result was so inexplicable, a toxic mix of lack of awareness and/or appreciation as to where he stood and poor execution, that it could only have come from pressure. Every other shot he hit down the stretch was explainable, there was a logic to them whether they were good or bad. The putts were poor but missable. 17 was 220 yards, allbeit downhill and he missed the green, as many others did that day. 14 and 18 are two par 4s that are 450 plus with narrow firm fairways. Which other shot did he 'choke' on?

tayto lover

I believe that if Rory had sank the putt on 16 he would have done the same on 18. The first bad putt was the cause of the second because it put the doubts in his mind.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122291217#Comment_122291217

Do you not think that you can make excuses for missing one green or missing one fairway but missing 2 of the 3 remaining par 3 greens and both of the next 2 fairways was an example of how the pressure got to him?

He was excellent off the tee all day until the 15th. (And before you say what about the 10th, that doesn't mean he was 100% OTT) He hit one good shot off the tee from there. What changed? He went 2 shots clear is one thing. How can that reasonably be explained except for pressure getting to him?

It's not any one given shot. It's all 6 mistakes that demonstrate how he didn't handle the pressure.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122291341#Comment_122291341

Safe to say neither of us are for turning on this one. Understanding of the word choke is all semantics and subjectivity anyway; Ive taken up enough space in the thread trying to explain my interpretation.

I hope the next time McIlroy is in the mix on a major Sunday, hes leading by 10 or 11 and isnt in any danger of losing so we can avoid such pointless post mortems in the future.

Good golfing, y'all.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292006#Comment_122292006

Thats why I didn't use the word choke in my questions which you conveniently avoided answering.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292011#Comment_122292011

Yes, in your 2nd redefinition today, youve used the word 'mistake' instead. Good to see you can get through a paragraph without using the 'C' word. Kudos.

Ive answered all your questions. Because you dont like or agree with these answers, you keep asking the same questions. As is your right, I suppose.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292042#Comment_122292042

I have not redefined anything. I tried to get your opinion on whether you believe the pressure got to him. But I think comments like this show the kinda person you are and shows how you argue in bad faith.

I still think he choked. As do most people.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292058#Comment_122292058

'Are you trying to say Monty wasn't a choker'

'Monty was a choker in majors'

'Monty was a choker in majors doesn't mean he choked every single time.'

'Losing doesn't make you a choker. Just because you win in one tournament doesnt mean you can't choke in another. Equally, saying someone was a choker doesn't apply to every tournament they ever played.

Yeah, your definitions have been crystal clear and unwavering. You cant lie repeatedly and then accuse me of arguing in 'bad faith', whatever that means.

Im aware you think he choked. I have offered a different opinion and explained clearly and repeatedly why I have that opinion. Not sure what else I can do tbh.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292205#Comment_122292205

Monty was a choker. I assumed I was talking to a regular person who understands context and saying someone is a choker and that they choked in the majors doesn't mean literally every single one. It appears on each and every occasion you took the most extreme interpretation of a statement in an attempt to discredit it. I tried not to do that to you.

I think Philly McMahon was a dirty player. Was he dirty every game? Of course not. I think Nicolas Cage is a hammy actor. Is every performance hammy? No. I read that Greg Norman choked in the majors….man has 2 majors and the word choke in golf is associated with himself quite a bit….

What did I lie about?

Everything above is a perfect example of bad faith arguing.

I have offered a different opinion and explained clearly and repeatedly why I have that opinion.

Yes, he felt the pressure like all golfer do but that only cost him one shot despite a clear drop in performance after taking the solo lead and shooting +3 over 5 holes on a golf course around 60 golfers shot better than.

You've explained very little as to how Rory went from making birdies to missing greens and fairways if it wasn't the most blindly obvious answer….pressure

I thought you were leaving?

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292253#Comment_122292253

An 'attempt' to discredit? :D

You lied when you said you hadnt redefined what it was to be a choker with regards to Colin Montgomerie. Trying to play the poor mouth by accusing me of being pedantic is pretty pathetic. If you say something overtly contradictory in a debate, youre going to get called out on it. Sorry.

Ive explained my opinion on every shot Rory hit coming in during this thread. Go back through and let me know where Ive not been clear enough.

I was going to leave but having too much fun to now. I expect a mod will end our nonsense soon enough (or you could simply be content to agree to disagree as you mooted several posts ago) but until then, I suppose Il carry on.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292332#Comment_122292332

i didn't lie, I didn't redefine anything. It's trying to having a conversation and move something off an argument about semantics. To move past choke and discuss did pressure get to him.

I don't think you called me out on anything. I made a general comment and expected someone to interpret it in a normal manner. But you want to use words like pathetic and then say you're arguing in good faith?

Yes, you explained each shot but not the cumulation of shots. How did he make so many mistakes? Nobodies arguing choking in this instance is a single moment.

Ah, so you lied about leaving? See how easy it is to act in bad faith?

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292350#Comment_122292350

Your denial is beneath you. Probably.

Golf is hard. I dont have any other explanation. I dont need any other explanation. Players make mistakes all the time. Unfortunately, his happened at a particularly inopportune moment.

Yeah, we're both liars it seems. Now that we've established some common ground, you wanna call it a day?

kyleman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292369#Comment_122292369

A lot of my friends don't like Rory for whatever reason but they never played golf in their lives.

Most of my golf buddies have nothing but admiration for him and recognise his amazing talent at the very top level. They also know how easy it is to miss a downhill putt with plenty of break.

I'm wondering are either of ye a golfer of any note.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292369#Comment_122292369

i don't think you're a liar, i think you argue in bad faith.

Players make mistakes all the time.

No doubt. Why did he go from making ve y few mistakes to at least one mistake on every hole when he took the lead? Surely any reasonable person would say it's pressure.

You can stop replying whenever you want.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292396#Comment_122292396

Are you saying the better the golfer, the more credible the opinion? Your friends may know how easy it is to miss a short down hill putt, I’d hazard a guess none of them are elite professional golfers though.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292396#Comment_122292396

Scratch golfer. Have played and followed the game closely since 1997 and have a fairly good knowledge of major venues, winners and losers encompassing the decades since and well before that year. But I am also a despicable liar.

Huge McIlroy fan. But not to the point where I think I cant call him out for a bad shot or take on life and the world. In my opinion at least. Others are entitled to theirs of course.

kyleman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292419#Comment_122292419

I'd hazard a guess no one on here plays golf with elite professional golfers.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292439#Comment_122292439

Is that relevant?

kyleman

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but reading back through your exchanges it is obvious that you have a good golfing background and understanding of the game.

I've often called Rory out myself but a lot of the exchanges on here get personal very quickly.

kyleman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292449#Comment_122292449

Well that was part of your question.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292409#Comment_122292409

He made lots of mistakes throughout the round. His chipping and particularly his putting were exceptional. Even with the 2 short putts, he performed well in strokes gained putting afaik. Good putting conceals average approach and wedge play. After the 1st hole, he hardly had another look at a birdie until 9, certainly nothing especially makeable. The only short putt he had for a birdie was on 13, the result of a 15 yard chip. I think you overestimate how well he played overall on Sunday. His driving was v good. His putting was exceptional until 16. Iron play was nothing to write home about.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292458#Comment_122292458

Are you claiming the friends are elite professional golfers?

“I'd hazard a guess no one on here plays golf with elite professional golfers.”

Otherwise your post quoted above makes no sense.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292462#Comment_122292462

I think you overestimate how well he played overall on Sunday

He was -4 and was hitting the ball beautifully. He was playing exceptionally well.

Although, according to you, you can't play fabulous golf at a US Open.

He was moat certainly playing well enough to not shoot +3 on the final 5 holes. Nor were those holes playing that difficult, nearly all of the field played it better than him.

Why did he go from GIRs to missing fairways (badly) and missing greens off the tee? Why did he suddenly start making very bad mistakes? None of his mistakes earlier in the round were that bad. 5 was a yard away from perfection.

It amazing that you legitimately believe pressure wasn't the cause of more than one of those mistakes (and you've an exceptionally odd take as to where his mistake was)

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292489#Comment_122292489

Name me 1 iron shot that he laced to within gimme distance? Or even within 10ft? There wasnt a single 1. 9 was what, 13ft odd, maybe 15?

He knew he hadnt hit the shot on 5 properly, he reacted negatively instantly. If it had stayed on the green, it wouldve been the result of good fortune, not a good swing or a precision strike.

I repeat, he drove the ball very well. He putted exceptionally well. But this wasnt Congressional or Kiawah, where he was knocking pins out every second hole. His approach play was way below what he is capable of.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292515#Comment_122292515

Its a US Open, he wasn't attacking pins. If you wanna argue he wasn't lying fantastic golf to that point sure, not one I'll agree with.

Name a any other stretch of 5 holes where he made 6 undisputable mistakes.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292548#Comment_122292548

He had several short irons and wedges from the fairway courtesy of his driving. Trying to pretend that he was deliberately shying away from every pin in 13 holes (excluding 13 and the par 3s) is a stretch to say the least.

He made 2 bad mistakes on 5 alone, the 2nd and the 3rd, which both left him in terrible spots with a left pin. Wouldnt have to look too hard to find a few more.

kyleman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292474#Comment_122292474

You said in your original question that you would hazard a guess that my friends are not elite professional golfers.

I doubt anyone here plays golf with elite professional golfers.