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Is it fair to blame the Banks & Government if you cant get mortgage approval?

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    #272
    SnuggyBear
    Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭SnuggyBear


    Antares35 wrote: »
    Do you base all your beliefs on anecdotal evidence? I bought a house on a low wage therefore anyone can. I saw some people on a TV show who are bad with money therefore everyone who can't buy a house is bad with money etc.

    And FWIW, I will be buying in a few months, so I'm not particularly in one camp and jumping to defend my spending habits. I just think you are way too simplistic in your approach.

    What can I say I'm a simplistic kinda guy I go off what I see and do. I don't buy that a doctor or even someone on 50k can't buy a house. Hard yes, but it's the biggest purchase of your life why should it be easy.


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    #273
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,555 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    greenfarm wrote: »
    I agree with OP, we baby young adults for way too long now and act like old age doesnt happen

    We call 24 year olds kids and think 40 is still young.

    In reality 24 is almost past absolute peak fertility for women and 40 is middle age if your extremely lucky to make it to 80.

    Thats no fault of our generation, in school we are not thought about money and ease it brings to life and we dont talk about old age and diseases. Most people in Ireland by age 50 have some kind of co-morbidity and health is declining rapidly.

    We need to hurry up and stop having 4 year college courses that could be done in 2.

    .....or maybe stop indebting people, so they can provide themselves with their most critical of needs


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    #274
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,555 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    SnuggyBear wrote: »
    What can I say I'm a simplistic kinda guy I go off what I see and do. I don't buy that a doctor or even someone on 50k can't buy a house. Hard yes, but it's the biggest purchase of your life why should it be easy.

    you re unwilling to accept that something catastrophic is failing in our most critical of needs, most obvious being property


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    #275
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    greenfarm wrote: »

    In reality 24 is almost past absolute peak fertility for women.

    We should all panic procreate at 23. That will make it easier to get a house :D


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    #276
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    It's not fair, but it's easy and convenient.

    - Blame the government, but spend 25k on your wedding a year earlier.
    - Blame the government, but too proud to work in a McDonalds part-time to get more money into savings for a mortgage.
    - Blame the government, but have a car loan to service your 191 car that replaced your perfectly fine 131 car.
    - Blame the government, but spend 60/70 per week on Starbucks and takeaways.

    We scrimped and saved for 4 full years. No fancy holiday, cut down on luxury, didn't go on expensive holidays, didn't change car, had a beautifully intimate small wedding for 6,000 euro (inc honeymoon). Bought a house this time last year in a beautiful area where we always wanted to live.

    You're anecdotal storylines are just that. I know if sensible couples on good wages - professional who are looking at having to take out giant mortgages to buy average,very very average houses. That's completely dysfunctional. And that's not even including those who are completely priced out of the market now. Eat all the rice you want and spend nought on entertainment for the next 10 years but someone working in a low paying job isn't getting their own house in this country.
    The issue is the houses are just not worth it. We're a low density country and there's no real reason for the houses to be the price they are. It's simply financial engineering that's got people either paying cruel rents of signing up for massive mortgages.


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    #277
    timeToLive
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭timeToLive


    JizzBeans wrote: »
    If the current generation of first time buyers have spent their 20's doing things like....


    1. Traveling the world
    2. Spending 3-6 years in college
    3. Living in Australia for a couple of years
    4. Buying new cars
    5. Buying the latest smartphones
    6. poor family planning
    7. Going on expensive holidays every summer
    8. Boozing every weekend
    9. Moving out with friends to live the life
    Then they shouldn't expect to get mortgage approval in their 30's now because they are "ready to settle down"



    Are people really surprised at the recent ERSI report findings? There is nothing inherently wrong with these activities as such, but they are not exactly compatible with saving for a deposit either.


    For most ordinary people, home ownership is a long and difficult journey, takes years of planning, saving, sacrifice etc. Its not something you decide to undertake on a whim because your are "getting on".


    Cant blame the banks and government for everything, personal responsibility has to play a part, no?




    Why would you want to blame people instead of the banks and the government? Why should people suffer for a decade just to buy a house?


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    #278
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,849 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Antares35 wrote: »
    SnuggyBear wrote: »
    Anyone ever watch those shows on rte where a guy helps people with money management? Says everything you need to know. Absolute idiots with money and clueless to how bad they are until it's pointed out to them.

    Do you base all your beliefs on anecdotal evidence? I bought a house on a low wage therefore anyone can. I saw some people on a TV show who are bad with money therefore everyone who can't buy a house is bad with money etc.

    And FWIW, I will be buying in a few months, so I'm not particularly in one camp and jumping to defend my spending habits. I just think you are way too simplistic in your approach.




    Well SnuggyBear, here is part of my downtrodden story. If I was able to do this then everyone else should be too.



    I was in the position of looking for my first career job after the crash here just over a decade ago. There didn't seem to be a lot going on in Ireland so I had to make the huge sacrifice to uproot myself to go to a foreign country. You know, it was terrible - being relatively young and single and having to go to a nice city in a wealthy country with great connectivity back to home. But I gallantly made the sacrifice.



    I lived in a relatively cheap studio and having just come from being a poor student/academic, I was fairly frugal. I don't drink or smoke and didn't buy a car. Still I would have saved what I would conservatively estimate to have been over 50k Euro equivalent in my first year.



    No avocado toast (It helped that I didn't even know what an avocado looked like at the time). Sure if I can do it, everyone can do it. And if one can't save over 50k in their first job then they are obviously an idiot with money and a loser. All it took was me not knowing what avocados were and some will power and me just being great with money. Or just me being great in general. If I was able to do it, then why can't everyone else. There was obviously no luck or fortunate circumstances or timing involved in my hardship story.



    Am I doing it right?


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    #279
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    timeToLive wrote: »
    Why would you want to blame people instead of the banks and the government? Why should people suffer for a decade just to buy a house?

    And paying back the large mortgage 35- 40 years after getting the LOAN -


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    #280
    SnuggyBear
    Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭SnuggyBear


    Donald Trump wrote: »



    Am I doing it right?

    Ye


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    #281
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    And for those where it isn't an option? Tough luck is it?
    Whoever you are there is a way to address things you can control, your savings and deposit. Throwing your hands up or feeling sorry for people will not do that.
    Two couples I knew bought in the early noughties, one would not move in until the spare room was decorated. It was easier for them with one in the bank and a rock bottom fixed loan. The other couple bought where they could, in the massive estates of North Dublin but both are addicted to saving. So much so that they were able to sell up and move back into the city closer to grandparents after seven years.


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    #282
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Antares35 wrote: »
    Nobody is saying they won't do it because of what others think, but it isn't a viable option for many people.
    Then you need to look for an option that can work for you even if that option might make for a long commute. Everything needs to be on the table.


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    #283
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    And paying back the large mortgage 35- 40 years after getting the LOAN -
    That's how loans work! Do you have a different solution?


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    #284
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,555 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Then you need to look for an option that can work for you even if that option might make for a long commute.

    ...sometimes this also isnt an option, as it would have a negative effect on your and your families well being


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    #285
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,849 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    greenfarm wrote: »
    I agree with OP, we baby young adults for way too long now and act like old age doesnt happen

    We call 24 year olds kids and think 40 is still young.

    In reality 24 is almost past absolute peak fertility for women and 40 is middle age if your extremely lucky to make it to 80.

    Thats no fault of our generation, in school we are not thought about money and ease it brings to life and we dont talk about old age and diseases. Most people in Ireland by age 50 have some kind of co-morbidity and health is declining rapidly.

    We need to hurry up and stop having 4 year college courses that could be done in 2.




    Well greenfarm, there may be indeed some people for who they hit their personal peak of maturity by 24 who cease developing physically, mentally or emotionally beyond that point. You may even include yourself in that cohort if you wish.


    Personally, I wouldn't have considered myself to have stopped learning at 24.


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    #286
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...sometimes this also isnt an option, as it would have a negative effect on your and your families well being
    Not sure what you mean here but you really don't know until you've looked hard at everything. Finger pointing is never a solution anyway even if there are systemic problems.


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    #287
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,555 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Not sure what you mean here but you really don't know until you've looked hard at everything. Finger pointing is never a solution anyway even if there are problems.

    id imagine most in this predicament do and have looked at all possibilities, and are quickly running out of options, theres clearly something catastrophically failing in regards property, something is at fault, and we must clearly identify these faults, and rectify them immediately


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    #288
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Not sure what you mean here but you really don't know until you've looked hard at everything. Finger pointing is never a solution anyway even if there are systemic problems.

    What in God's name are you even saying? Just gibberish.


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    #289
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    id imagine most in this predicament do and have looked at all possibilities, and are quickly running out of options, theres clearly something catastrophically failing in regards property, something is at fault, and we must clearly identify these faults, and rectify them immediately
    Immediately unfortunately means 2-5 years at least and no wild promises from certain quarters will change that.


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    #290
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    is_that_so wrote: »
    That's how loans work! Do you have a different solution?

    Okay so we are forgetting the drastic rise in house prices and wage stagnation on this thread - noted.


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    #291
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,555 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Immediately unfortunately means 2-5 years at least and no wild promises from certain quarters will change that.

    its been clearly obvious for many years now, even pre 08, that something catastrophic is failing in regards property, we havent reacted to these failures at all, in fact we ve been trying to default to previous failed approaches.....


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    #292
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    Okay so we are forgetting the drastic rise in house prices and wage stagnation on this thread - noted.
    Well, if that had been in your post we wouldn't have! You can't expect posters to join dots that are only in your head!


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    #293
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Well, if that had been in your post we wouldn't have! You can't expect posters to join dots that are only in your head!

    Would you believe - it’s not a big secret.


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    #294
    Bobtheman
    Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    I can't believe the poster thinks this. The op.
    We have the second highest mortgage rates in the EU because the government won't move on arrears.
    There is of course the fact that tracker mortgages ain't profitable by the banks. A lot of people got those in later stages of the boom
    The state has also failed to keep social housing going even to start it again properly.
    Why? I'm not so sure.
    The state takes 60k off every house built.
    It would immediately inject supply if the builder was told to take 60k off every house he builds with certain price guarantee. A mechanism could be found

    Amazing what this state can do if it has a mind to do it.


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    #295
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    its been clearly obvious for many years now, even pre 08, that something catastrophic is failing in regards property, we havent reacted to these failures at all, in fact we ve been trying to default to previous failed approaches.....
    Part of that is ingrained though as many of us will not embrace apartment living, a prerequisite for greater density and keeping people closer to amenities and work.


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    #296
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,555 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Part of that is ingrained though as many of us will not embrace apartment living, a prerequisite for greater density and keeping people closer to amenities and work.

    apartment living is only for some, but not for all, i know i personally couldnt do it, i require space, peace and quiet, and a garden is critical also, we re clearly experiencing much deeper problems in regards property


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    #297
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Part of that is ingrained though as many of us will not embrace apartment living, a prerequisite for greater density and keeping people closer to amenities and work.

    A house in the countryside and an apartment in any city in the country are fairly similar in price to be fair.

    Look on daft, look at cork or limerick, or even Dublin - how many apartments are for sale and for how much?


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    #298
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    apartment living is only for some, but not for all, i know i personally couldnt do it, i require space, peace and quiet, and a garden is critical also, we re clearly experiencing much deeper problems in regards property
    That is fair enough but if we want to address the huge low density problem and providing that 15 minute city idea more will need to.


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    #299
    Bobtheman
    Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    But one thing I'd like to say is that it was never ever easy to buy a house in Ireland bar the boom
    We have had a dysfunctional housing market since about 1998.
    Before that you had to get on your hands and knees to get a mortgage. The banks only really began moving into mortgage lending in the 1990s. Before that it was mainly building societies.
    High mortgage rates and unemployment in the 1980s.
    There is a huge sense of entitlement for those under 35. In my day we were never sure we'd own anything. The spectre of forced emigration was always there.
    If you went bankrupt it was a 12 year process.
    So let's stop Pretending this generation has it the hardest.
    Ireland has generally been a poorly managed state that gets by with foreign investment. Pure and simple.


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    #300
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    A house in the countryside and an apartment in any city in the country are fairly similar in price to be fair.

    Look on daft, look at cork or limerick, or even Dublin - how many apartments are for sale and for how much?
    Yeah, but that's a different planning issue and cost.


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    #301
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,555 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    is_that_so wrote: »
    That is fair enough but if we want to address the huge low density problem and providing that 15 minute city idea more will need to.

    what if we dont want to, who said we all do? a critical element of property is the emotional needs for its occupants, this is regularly omitted in such debates


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