Is it fair to blame the Banks & Government if you cant get mortgage approval?

thomas 123

is_that_so wrote: »

Yeah, but that's a different planning issue and cost.

Okay - and how is that in my direct control as a prospective buyer of a home in either the country side or an apartment in a city?

Donald Trump

Bobtheman wrote: »

I can't believe the poster thinks this. The op.
We have the second highest mortgage rates in the EU because the government won't move on arrears.
There is of course the fact that tracker mortgages ain't profitable by the banks. A lot of people got those in later stages of the boom
The state has also failed to keep social housing going even to start it again properly.
Why? I'm not so sure.
The state takes 60k off every house built.
It would immediately inject supply if the builder was told to take 60k off every house he builds with certain price guarantee. A mechanism could be found

Amazing what this state can do if it has a mind to do it.

Most of any subvention from the government will end up, directly or indirectly, in the hands of builders and current owners.

The only way to enact change on that end is to apply charges. Higher property taxes to non-owner occupied properties and also strictly enforced vacant site or house levies.

Once land is rezoned, after say 3 years, there is a X% levy on it per year. When the developer gets planning permission, there is no levy for another 3 years. They have a reasonable window to build and sell the houses.

Once that second 3 year elapses, there is a levy of Y% on the market value of the planned houses (whether they have been built or not). This levy can increase over time depending on the number of years. The levy can attach to the property and be collected at sale time or result in seizure by the state if the accumulated levy exceeds the value of the property.


These levies would not discourage development. They would just discourage hoarding.

Bobtheman

Bobtheman wrote: »

But one thing I'd like to say is that it was never ever easy to buy a house in Ireland bar the boom
We have had a dysfunctional housing market since about 1998.
Before that you had to get on your hands and knees to get a mortgage. The banks only really began moving into mortgage lending in the 1990s. Before that it was mainly building societies.
High mortgage rates and unemployment in the 1980s.
There is a huge sense of entitlement for those under 35. In my day we were never sure we'd own anything. The spectre of forced emigration was always there.
If you went bankrupt it was a 12 year process.
So let's stop Pretending this generation has it the hardest.
Ireland has generally been a poorly managed state that gets by with foreign investment. Pure and simple.

again with this nonsense, the whole world changed, not just ireland. It has nothing to do with emigration or the unemployment rate

Almost everywhere in the western world went from an average single income being able to afford an average house to requiring double the amount of work.
Wouldnt even get you an average house. Further away too, often smaller.

Mortgages of 15, 20 and 25 years were normal. 12 years was a thing too if you were better paid.

Now its 35 and 40 years.

No comparison.

Interest rates rocketed in the 1980s for a brief period and were generally high but guess what......wages growth rates were in todays terms...........astronomical

is_that_so

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what if we dont want to, who said we all do? a critical element of property is the emotional needs for its occupants, this is regularly omitted in such debates

We can't have what we want from our property market by dismissing components we dislike and houses with gardens for everyone is not at all practical. If you were from beyond the British Isles a nice apart would suit your emotional needs.

JizzBeans

OK, I've recently turned 40,so let's go through your list, from my 20s

JizzBeans wrote: »

1. Traveling the world: UK, Greece, Poland, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium/Luxembourg, Spain, Croatia, Brazil, Argentina, USA, New Zealand, Fiji, China
2. Spending 3-6 years in college: 5 years Bio Undergrad (with gap year)
3. Living in Australia for a couple of years: Wish I did this...
4. Buying new cars: Bought €3,500 motor bike, from gap year work. First car out of college was a 3 (4?) year old Passat
5. Buying the latest smartphones: Had Nokia N95 when it was phenomenal, and had first Galaxy phones
6. poor family planning: Had first kid during second stint in college when 33
7. Going on expensive holidays every summer: See point 1
8. Boozing every weekend: Damn right
9. Moving out with friends to live the life: Moved out straight after college

Had no problem buying a house as I wanted to buy in Newbridge in Dec 2012 during the lowest period of the crash.
But, based on your criteria, I should not have been expecting that two degree qualified professionals could enjoy their 20s while still saving enough for a mortgage


Restricted supply and massively inflated prices (due to this and funds buying entire developments) means that no amount of savings will help 30 year old couples now. Factor this in with spiralling rents? FFS they've no chance



We increase cash/credit and prices will rise to match.

It's a government failing particularly around the lack of dereliction and land hoarding regulation

is_that_so

thomas 123 wrote: »

Okay - and how is that in my direct control as a prospective buyer of a home in either the country side or an apartment in a city?

Well it's not, it's council demands from developers. All you control is the cash in your hot little fist.

Cilldara_2000

Bobtheman wrote: »

But one thing I'd like to say is that it was never ever easy to buy a house in Ireland bar the boom
We have had a dysfunctional housing market since about 1998.
Before that you had to get on your hands and knees to get a mortgage. The banks only really began moving into mortgage lending in the 1990s. Before that it was mainly building societies.
High mortgage rates and unemployment in the 1980s.
There is a huge sense of entitlement for those under 35. In my day we were never sure we'd own anything. The spectre of forced emigration was always there.
If you went bankrupt it was a 12 year process.
So let's stop Pretending this generation has it the hardest.
Ireland has generally been a poorly managed state that gets by with foreign investment. Pure and simple.

Unlike the 1980s when we were among the also rans in Europe, we're now one of the richest countries in the world. I don't think it's reasonable that everyone who wants their own home and wants to pay their own way should have one in one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

There was also this report in the IT last week: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/stagnant-wages-and-expensive-housing-leave-young-people-in-ireland-worse-off-than-parents-1.4560760

A combination of stagnant wages and higher housing costs have left young workers in Ireland financially worse off than their parents, according to a study by the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI).

The research found that earnings have flat-lined for young people entering the Irish labour market and that workers in their 20s are – in real terms – earning less than they did in the 1990s and 2000s.

Their situation is compounded by higher housing costs fuelled “by rapidly rising rents”. This is in part because home ownership rates for young adults have “collapsed”, the report said.

While more than 60 per cent of those born in the 1960s lived in a home they or their partner owned by age 30, this had fallen to 39 per cent for those born in the 1970s and 32 per cent for those born in the early 1980s.
...
The study found there has been “widespread stagnation in earnings growth” since the 2008 financial crisis, with average earnings for those born in the 1980s no higher from age 25 to 35 than for those born in the 1970s.

I find it difficult to accept the just get on with it and live like a monk attitude expressed again by many posters in recent pages - despite it all having been already debunked in the thread.

Simple fact of the matter is that no amount of personal austerity and asceticism is going to be able to close the gap between earnings and house prices, particularly for anyone who has no choice but to pay rent.

I do wonder if the attitude expressed in here is informed by people who don't want to see the value of their home drop. But I think there's growing groundswell among the older cohort who have now recognised that a notional figure on paper is worthless to them when they're stuck with adult children who just can't afford to start.

c montgomery

Wanderer78 wrote: »

apartment living is only for some, but not for all, i know i personally couldnt do it, i require space, peace and quiet, and a garden is critical also, we re clearly experiencing much deeper problems in regards property

Apartment living is also for those who can't afford anything else.
Loads of people would have the same wish list as you but reality bites.

Biker79

You cant run an economy based on consumer spending and then heavily penalize people for consuming and not saving. Makes no sense.

I wonder if people under 40 aren't being manipulated ? Its no co-incidence that they are the most technologically productive. Is housing being kept just out of reach so that they will work harder, and drive technological change forward?

Seems a co-incidence that those who struggle with housing costs are also being turned into digital slaves with stagnant wages.

In my experience, tech companies would rather be staffed with young workers housed in dormitories travelling around on scooters.

antimatterx

The DayDream wrote: »

What a load of absolute shíte.

Everyone in their 20s, 30s and 40s now was told to go to college to have a decent life. how is that on your list? Moronic.
Not to mention being simultaneously told to follow your dreams, travel, yada yada.

If you don't go to college and don't travel and don't buy a car, where does that leave you in Ireland? Living in a rural town of 1500 people, mostly retired, with no education, no transport and no way to even get to anywhere jobs are?

Like are you for real?

Depending on what you study, going to college is the way to live a decent life. Absolutely 100%.

Study Tech, Medicine or Law etc you will make good money. Study gender studies and yes you'll struggle.

greenfarm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

OK, I've recently turned 40,so let's go through your list, from my 20s



[/LIST]
Had no problem buying a house as I wanted to buy in Newbridge in Dec 2012 during the lowest period of the crash.
But, based on your criteria, I should not have been expecting that two degree qualified professionals could enjoy their 20s while still saving enough for a mortgage


Restricted supply and massively inflated prices (due to this and funds buying entire developments) means that no amount of savings will help 30 year old couples now. Factor this in with spiralling rents? FFS they've no chance



We increase cash/credit and prices will rise to match.

It's a government failing particularly around the lack of dereliction and land hoarding regulation

You got lucky with timing to be fair, it was becoming a buyer's market in 2012, I bought in 2015 and was also very lucky

People who are buying in 2022 are not going to be as lucky

greenfarm

greenfarm wrote: »

You got lucky with timing to be fair, it was becoming a buyer's market in 2012, I bought in 2015 and was also very lucky

People who are buying in 2022 are not going to be as lucky

Exactly. I sold that house, made a profit, and was able to renovate a house far out of my range.
Absolutely haunted lucky.

My equivalent job grades and former classmates are either still renting or paying crippling mortgages.

Wanderer78

is_that_so wrote: »

We can't have what we want from our property market by dismissing components we dislike and houses with gardens for everyone is not at all practical. If you were from beyond the British Isles a nice apart would suit your emotional needs.

by continually ignoring the psychological and emotional importants of security of accommodation, we re slowly turning our society into a cesspool, by increasing working hours, including commuting, we re slowly making ourselves psychologically unwell, which in turn increases maladaptive copying strategies including addiction and other destructive behaviors

c montgomery wrote: »

Apartment living is also for those who can't afford anything else.
Loads of people would have the same wish list as you but reality bites.

so if you could not afford anything other than an apartment, and if that living was making you and your loved ones psychologically unwell, you would simply just accept this?

c montgomery

c montgomery wrote: »

Apartment living is also for those who can't afford anything else.
Loads of people would have the same wish list as you but reality bites.

Our apartments are designed for relatively short term rentals. Developments tend to have no facility for family living.
Provide a properly designed complex with real thought to long term family living and I've no issues at all with apartment life.

We do not have a single city that justifies London/New York style building

vriesmays

JizzBeans wrote: »

1. Traveling the world
2. Spending 3-6 years in college
3. Living in Australia for a couple of years
4. Buying new cars
5. Buying the latest smartphones
6. poor family planning
7. Going on expensive holidays every summer
8. Boozing every weekend
9. Moving out with friends to live the life

10. Not putting their name on the council housing list when they turn 18.

Pussyhands

Deleted User wrote: »

The whole 'Ireland had high unemployment and emigration' doesnt stack up as the reason it was 3x a single income in the past. 3x a single income was normal across alot of the western world.

Fact is we work twice as hard to get a house as two people are now working. Lots of other things are cheaper but it doesnt offset the cost

And then women started having careers, then couples had more money and could pay higher prices. Then multi nationals came and paid more money.

Maybe we work twice as hard because people decide to work twice as hard to get ahead?

Answer me this, with housing so expensive, why is immigration so high?

Wanderer78

Pussyhands wrote: »

And then women started having careers, then couples had more money and could pay higher prices. Then multi nationals came and paid more money.

Maybe we work twice as hard because people decide to work twice as hard to get ahead?

Answer me this, with housing so expensive, why is immigration so high?

the financialisation of our economies has failed, the free movement of capital has been far more damaging than the free movement of people

Pussyhands

FutureGuy wrote: »

It's not fair, but it's easy and convenient.

- Blame the government, but spend 25k on your wedding a year earlier.
- Blame the government, but too proud to work in a McDonalds part-time to get more money into savings for a mortgage.
- Blame the government, but have a car loan to service your 191 car that replaced your perfectly fine 131 car.
- Blame the government, but spend 60/70 per week on Starbucks and takeaways.

We scrimped and saved for 4 full years. No fancy holiday, cut down on luxury, didn't go on expensive holidays, didn't change car, had a beautifully intimate small wedding for 6,000 euro (inc honeymoon). Bought a house this time last year in a beautiful area where we always wanted to live.

I made a post earlier in this thread.

I linked a photo of my costs but it didn't post for some reason.

I earn 50k and I save 22k per year. I rent in a house share, have a car, I'm not scrimping but I definitely don't throw money away.

I can post my bills and costs if anyone would like.

There are many many young people out there in decent jobs saving good money. There's plenty of first time buyers buying.

I have just got AIP, but I will not be buying in this market even though I can afford to, I think house prices are over priced right now...that's something I agree with.

But there's young people out there with a woeful sense of entitlement.

This is harsh, but just like I will never be able to afford a city centre penthouse, there's lads working in cafes, bars, factories, barbers etc that will never be able to buy a 4 bed semi D in Dublin 8.

Pussyhands

Pussyhands wrote: »

I made a post earlier in this thread.

I linked a photo of my costs but it didn't post for some reason.

I earn 50k and I save 22k per year. I rent in a house share, have a car, I'm not scrimping but I definitely don't throw money away.

I can post my bills and costs if anyone would like.

There are many many young people out there in decent jobs saving good money. There's plenty of first time buyers buying.

I have just got AIP, but I will not be buying in this market even though I can afford to, I think house prices are over priced right now...that's something I agree with.

But there's young people out there with a woeful sense of entitlement.

This is harsh, but just like I will never be able to afford a city centre penthouse, there's lads working in cafes, bars, factories, barbers etc that will never be able to buy a 4 bed semi D in Dublin 8.

So right now you are not 30-35, married with a kid, and having to rent an entire house eating 3 times a mortgage payment, while still having AIP and deposit and need to buy to stop hemorrhaging that extra grand+ a month


You're happily able to stay in a house share. Lucky you

Pussyhands

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Anyone ever watch those shows on rte where a guy helps people with money management? Says everything you need to know. Absolute idiots with money and clueless to how bad they are until it's pointed out to them.

Some people don't understand money at all. If they see money in their account, they just see that it can be spent.

Pussyhands

Deleted User wrote: »

So right now you are not 30-35, married with a kid, and having to rent an entire house eating 3 times a mortgage payment, while still having AIP and deposit.


You're happily able to stay in a house share. Lucky you

Nope.

I wouldn't have kids if I couldn't afford them though.

But just to expand, I earn 50k in a city. Even if I had kids, I could spend an extra 22k a year on them and I still could afford them. And that's me, as a single person.

Pussyhands

Pussyhands wrote: »

Nope.

I wouldn't have kids if I couldn't afford them though.

Can't afford them because the government has wholly failed on housing policy, or did you choose to ignore that I mentioned people able to rent a whole house, and have AIP, but cannot get a house purchased.
Anyone who can rent an entire house and have several 10s of thousands, in savings, can service a mortgage in a functioning market


They're able to afford kids. Still can't afford a house.

Pussyhands

Pussyhands wrote: »

Nope.

I wouldn't have kids if I couldn't afford them though.

But just to expand, I earn 50k in a city. Even if I had kids, I could spend an extra 22k a year on them and I still could afford them. And that's me, as a single person.

That's some cheap imaginary kids you have there

Pussyhands

Deleted User wrote: »

That's some cheap imaginary kids you have there

Kids costs 22k a year + 1500 childrens allowance per year?

I'd be a single parent getting payments aswell, even more!

elefant

Pussyhands wrote: »

Kids costs 22k a year + 1500 childrens allowance per year?

I'd be a single parent getting payments aswell, even more!

The house share situation would certainly become interesting.

thomas 123

elefant wrote: »

The house share situation would certainly become interesting.

It wouldn’t be an issue as he could just move back in with mam and dad.

SnuggyBear

So now we are just making up imaginary situations to discredit a single person on 50k in Dublin getting mortgage approval and being able to buy in Dublin?

SnuggyBear

SnuggyBear wrote: »

So now we are just making up imaginary situations to discredit a single person on 50k in Dublin getting mortgage approval and being able to buy in Dublin?

No I mentioned a common use case of a married couple in early 30s with a kid. Which shows the entire OP thread for nonsense.



They're capable or raising a kid, having deposit, and paying rent. Are mortgage AIP but are still not going to buy a property suitable for a family.



He said himself that he's not buying because homes are overpriced.

Mad_maxx

Pussyhands wrote: »

And then women started having careers, then couples had more money and could pay higher prices. Then multi nationals came and paid more money.

Maybe we work twice as hard because people decide to work twice as hard to get ahead?

Answer me this, with housing so expensive, why is immigration so high?

Reduced importance of agriculture so people headed to cities and demand increased hugely

Strong wages and generous welfare

Wanderer78

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Reduced importance of agriculture so people headed to cities and demand increased hugely

Strong wages and generous welfare

...only that wage inflation has slowed, in fact has become stagnant for many, and welfare is so low, as soon as the wee virus came along, it was immediately upped to almost double for many..........