Is it fair to blame the Banks & Government if you cant get mortgage approval?

tom1ie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The way for anything to come down is to increase supply relative to demand.

Also if people don't have the money to pay for the product.

tom1ie

crooked cockney villain wrote: »

Part of the problem isn't just the house prices. It's young people being told to go to 3rd level, only for the reward at the end of it to be a job that starts on a poxy 24K that rises yearly at a snails pace. To compare, a 2nd year apprentice wouldn't be on much less than this, a 4th year one would be on upwards of 30- 35k. Unless you are going for a bona fide high earning profession, getting a catch all degree in Business or whatever to end up working admin in a bank or an insurance company is a slow road to poverty.

Having a trade and gaining experience while learning is infinitely better than going to college and getting a degree, that after four years, isn't much use if you then need to gain experience.
You can always go to college as a mature student if you feel you need a degree.

crooked cockney villain

tom1ie wrote: »

Having a trade and gaining experience while learning is infinitely better than going to college and getting a degree, that after four years, isn't much use if you then need to gain experience.
You can always go to college as a mature student if you feel you need a degree.

1000%. Even a non skilled or semi skilled construction job will pull in 35- 40k for a 40 hour week. And most lads in the game will work longer than this, OT rates kick in after 8 hours, do a few Saturdays etc. Problem with these basic office jobs is they seem to pay the same across the country. A couple who both work as bank tellers on say 28K each could easily buy a home if they live in Donegal. Their colleagues in Dublin will be on the same money and would really struggle to get somewhere.

I would seriously discourage my son from going to 3rd level unless he had a very specific well paid field in mind. It isn't just the money, it's the toll on physical and mental health a stationery, repetitive, low paid office job can have. I remember I stopped off in the Subway at Cherrywood on my break once, the office men in there queueing looked like the walking dead. Overweight, underwight, pale, it was like you could smell the misery.

Cilldara_2000

crooked cockney villain wrote: »

1000%. Even a non skilled or semi skilled construction job will pull in 35- 40k for a 40 hour week. And most lads in the game will work longer than this, OT rates kick in after 8 hours, do a few Saturdays etc. Problem with these basic office jobs is they seem to pay the same across the country. A couple who both work as bank tellers on say 28K each could easily buy a home if they live in Donegal. Their colleagues in Dublin will be on the same money and would really struggle to get somewhere.

I would seriously discourage my son from going to 3rd level unless he had a very specific well paid field in mind. It isn't just the money, it's the toll on physical and mental health a stationery, repetitive, low paid office job can have. I remember I stopped off in the Subway at Cherrywood on my break once, the office men in there queueing looked like the walking dead. Overweight, underwight, pale, it was like you could smell the misery.

This is not true over the course of a lifetime:

The average lifetime net premium for an undergraduate degree holder from an Irish university has been estimated at €106,000 by research firm Indecon.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/irish-university-graduates-earn-more-from-degrees-than-in-uk-1.3848600

Plus the pension age is continuously being pushed up. Hanging off a bit scaffolding to screw a roof on when you're 70 is a rather different kettle of fish to pushing a computer mouse around.

Murph85

smurgen wrote: »

Developers are running rings around the planning authorities. Take this in Cork. Knocked a historical pub with the promise of apartments. Now the apartments are deemed to be only feasible at 3k a month rent and it's offices being put up. How is this all legal?

https://twitter.com/AlanHealy/status/1398521142101618692?s=19

How in God's name they think towers will be feasible in cork with far power rents and land prices than Dublin, is beyond me...

Murph85

tom1ie wrote: »

Having a trade and gaining experience while learning is infinitely better than going to college and getting a degree, that after four years, isn't much use if you then need to gain experience.
You can always go to college as a mature student if you feel you need a degree.

Toilets,plasterers, carpenters and painters etc in Dublin are taking in a fortune compared to most other workers and large amounts of it are cash...

Murph85

Murph85 wrote: »

How in God's name they think towers will be feasible in cork with far power rents and land prices than Dublin, is beyond me...

Surely land prices work in their favour.

Murph85

Is it fair to blame the government and banks? Banks not really, government wanting rip off prices and practicing appalling urban planning, yes...

biko

Not enough houses = prices go up.
Price go up = you need more money for mortgage.

Why are there not enough houses? There were ghost estates just a few years ago.

crooked cockney villain

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Plus the pension age is continuously being pushed up. Hanging off a bit scaffolding to screw a roof on when you're 70 is a rather different kettle of fish to pushing a computer mouse around.

Your average tradesman and his missus could easily buy a house in Dublin by the time he is in his early to mid 20's if he started his apprenticeship at 17/ 18, as long as he has the cop on to save a deposit. How many graduates can say that even 8 years later?

Of course, buying a house with a girlfriend at the age of 24 isn't always advisable IMO as it's a big commitment with a bird when you're very young- point is though it is very achievable.

As for the pension age I can't recall the last time I saw a tradesman over 55 on a big site. By that age the vast majority have long ago ppaid ff the house and are either self employed/ semi retired, plain retired, or moved on to less physically exerting work.

Again...how many graduates...etc.

Another advantage is that it's a sector with SEO rates. Everyone on sites knows the man beside him gets at least X amount per hour. In an office you won't (not only because there are no SEO minimum rates, but because for some bizarre reason most office people won't tell their colleagues what they earn, while lads on site have no issue with it)

Figel Narage

crooked cockney villain wrote: »

Your average tradesman and his missus could easily buy a house in Dublin by the time he is in his early to mid 20's if he started his apprenticeship at 17/ 18, as long as he has the cop on to save a deposit. How many graduates can say that even 8 years later?

Of course, buying a house with a girlfriend at the age of 24 isn't always advisable IMO as it's a big commitment with a bird when you're very young- point is though it is very achievable.

As for the pension age I can't recall the last time I saw a tradesman over 55 on a big site. By that age the vast majority have long ago ppaid ff the house and are either self employed/ semi retired, plain retired, or moved on to less physically exerting work.

Again...how many graduates...etc.

Another advantage is that it's a sector with SEO rates. Everyone on sites knows the man beside him gets at least X amount per hour. In an office you won't (not only because there are no SEO minimum rates, but because for some bizarre reason most office people won't tell their colleagues what they earn, while lads on site have no issue with it)

That's interesting, how much do trades men make on average by the time they're mid 20's?

Bobtheman

Housing market in Ireland dysfunctional last 24 years. Unless a person is asking for ridiculous amounts it is the government's fault.
We have highest rates in EU.
We won't repossess houses where no agreements can be reached.Thus we have large arrears
The banks thus have to keep rates high.
We only have two banks lending now.
Essentially we have governments who can run an economy but not provide you with housing or an operation. If I was under 30 I'd emigrate

crooked cockney villain

Figel Narage wrote: »

That's interesting, how much do trades men make on average by the time they're mid 20's?

https://thehrcompany.ie/index.php/blog/increase-on-the-rate-pays-for-the-construction-sector/

Rates for fully qualified (after 4 years ), so yes, plenty of lads under 25 on this money.

These, however, don't tell the full story. Most bricklayers would probably hit you a slap if you offered them a paltry 20 per hour, whereas it would be roughly in line for what a lot of chippys, joiners, painters would be getting. Although even at that, some chippys could get up to 30 I'd say. Plasterers are, I believe, usually able to ask for at least 25 in Dublin.

In saying that, brickys might clear a grand take home in an average week, but could find themselves absolutely fooked by a run of consistent bad weather.

Sparks and plumbers have a different minimum rate, I believe it's 23 or so. Plenty, probably most, would be getting far more than this.

Of course, a good proportion of these lads have chronic addictions to gambling, drink, brazzers, cocaine, cannabis, and in many cases a combination of all five of the above. So plenty of them aren't actually all that rich.

Either way, it is all well over 40K gross per year. Plenty of people 10 years out of college in a "good job" would struggle to get 75% of that.

am_zarathustra

crooked cockney villain wrote: »

https://thehrcompany.ie/index.php/blog/increase-on-the-rate-pays-for-the-construction-sector/

Rates for fully qualified (after 4 years ), so yes, plenty of lads under 25 on this money.

These, however, don't tell the full story. Most bricklayers would probably hit you a slap if you offered them a paltry 20 per hour, whereas it would be roughly in line for what a lot of chippys, joiners, painters would be getting. Although even at that, some chippys could get up to 30 I'd say. Plasterers are, I believe, usually able to ask for at least 25 in Dublin.

In saying that, brickys might clear a grand take home in an average week, but could find themselves absolutely fooked by a run of consistent bad weather.

Sparks and plumbers have a different minimum rate, I believe it's 23 or so. Plenty, probably most, would be getting far more than this.

Of course, a good proportion of these lads have chronic addictions to gambling, drink, brazzers, cocaine, cannabis, and in many cases a combination of all five of the above. So plenty of them aren't actually all that rich.

Either way, it is all well over 40K gross per year. Plenty of people 10 years out of college in a "good job" would struggle to get 75% of that.

I'd completely agree college isn't for everyone and a lot of trades are in short supply and well renumerated but there are other reasons to choose a career. A stable office job might suit someone risk adverse or someone with addiction issues like above. Some people prefer working on computers than with their hands. Not everything is so binary. I love my job, it's stable, suits my personality and skillset and gives me time with my loved ones. It would be someone else's nightmare.

I think the stigma (weirdly) attached to trades will fall away over time and I'd always recommend it to young people as a great career, especially of you've an aptitude for maths/business along with the practical skills but for some people it would be the completely wrong choice.

Money isn't the only consideration in work, generally in any field if your work hard and you've an apitude you can make money. Disregualtion in the housing market may mean you can't buy anywhere reasonable though and we still need certain jobs in certain areas or we will end up like SF, not being able to get cleaners or baristas. Everyone can't be a chippie or builder anymore than everyone can be an accountant. More builders or electricians would also bring wages down through oversupply.

blanch152

Murph85 wrote: »

Toilets,plasterers, carpenters and painters etc in Dublin are taking in a fortune compared to most other workers and large amounts of it are cash...

Could you introduce me to some of these high-earning toilets?

I could install several in my bathroom and make a fortune :D.

Shebean

Working on sites is hard work. It weighs heavy on your body over the years. If it rains you generally don't work. It's slow to non-existent over some winter months. It's very tied to the economy. It's not for everyone. You can make good money but then be out of work for extended periods.

I don't know about getting a mortgage at 24 when you can only give estimates of income for the year coming. Can't see it being easy to get a loan unless you have a solid contract, which tends to be on a job by job basis.

beggars_bush

Banks are querying transactions on revolut and other such platforms
I know one couple that had awful trouble with their application

joseywhales

I've met people working in office jobs charging at 3.5k per day, and others making 15 per hour, "office job" is not a homogenous group.

Building work is great in the summer though, very healthy, you feel better after a bit of physical work too.

Jinglejangle69

crooked cockney villain wrote: »

https://thehrcompany.ie/index.php/blog/increase-on-the-rate-pays-for-the-construction-sector/

Rates for fully qualified (after 4 years ), so yes, plenty of lads under 25 on this money.

These, however, don't tell the full story. Most bricklayers would probably hit you a slap if you offered them a paltry 20 per hour, whereas it would be roughly in line for what a lot of chippys, joiners, painters would be getting. Although even at that, some chippys could get up to 30 I'd say. Plasterers are, I believe, usually able to ask for at least 25 in Dublin.

In saying that, brickys might clear a grand take home in an average week, but could find themselves absolutely fooked by a run of consistent bad weather.

Sparks and plumbers have a different minimum rate, I believe it's 23 or so. Plenty, probably most, would be getting far more than this.

Of course, a good proportion of these lads have chronic addictions to gambling, drink, brazzers, cocaine, cannabis, and in many cases a combination of all five of the above. So plenty of them aren't actually all that rich.

Either way, it is all well over 40K gross per year. Plenty of people 10 years out of college in a "good job" would struggle to get 75% of that.

Some generalisation in your second last paragraph!!