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Is it fair to blame the Banks & Government if you cant get mortgage approval?

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    #242
    SnuggyBear
    Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭SnuggyBear


    Antares35 wrote: »
    Yes I can, but unlike you I'm not so ignorant to state that what's viable for some or many is viable for all.

    OK let's agree it's an option for some people. Let's presume that option wasn't available to me and I stayed renting and saving. I would have still bought a house it would have just taken longer.


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    #243
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    SnuggyBear wrote: »
    OK let's agree it's an option for some people. Let's presume that option wasn't available to me and I stayed renting and saving. I would have still bought a house it would have just taken longer.

    With stuff like this going on you could be saving indefinitely.

    https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1393835602563457024?s=19


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    #244
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    SnuggyBear wrote: »
    OK let's agree it's an option for some people.

    Thank you for accepting that what's good for you isn't necessarily good for others.


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    #245
    SnuggyBear
    Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭SnuggyBear


    smurgen wrote: »
    With stuff like this going on you could be saving indefinitely.

    https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1393835602563457024?s=19

    Ye this is messed up and I'll admit it's a mess now with covid. I'm talking from my experience 3 years ago. People had the same complaints then though and I bought a house on a low salary. When I went to the bank they were in awe at my saving record.

    I'm planning now to buy a second house. I'm not complaining about how hard it is going be. I'm just going to get on with it. Maybe I'll dig this thread up when I buy it in 10 years or whatever.


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    #246
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    smurgen wrote: »
    With stuff like this going on you could be saving indefinitely.

    https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1393835602563457024?s=19
    The two may not be connected at all. Ball dropping of the highest order allowing them to secure the properties but without seeing the nature of that investment from a paywalled article that link is not obvious.


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    #247
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    SnuggyBear wrote: »
    Ye this is messed up and I'll admit it's a mess now with covid. I'm talking from my experience 3 years ago. People had the same complaints then though and I bought a house on a low salary. When I went to the bank they were in awe at my saving record.

    I'm planning now to buy a second house. I'm not complaining about how hard it is going be. I'm just going to get on with it. Maybe I'll dig this thread up when I buy it in 10 years or whatever.
    When some people begin to consider property or other life decisions they seem surprised that to get to certain points in life you need to align your plans in that direction over a period of time. Property buying has never been easy and it's made twice as hard by the media stoking the no-hope lost generation claims. Most people l know did not start in their ideal place but over time managed to work themselves towards somewhere that suited them.

    As for the saving side, yes it can be done but not by continuing to do everything else in your life you enjoy. Heard of people recently who've saved €10K+ due to COVID layoffs. Having your own funds is part of that solution.


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    #248
    Cal4567
    Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    smurgen wrote: »
    With stuff like this going on you could be saving indefinitely.

    https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1393835602563457024?s=19

    Yes, Urbeo, yet another vehicle spawned from the property finance world, with its mix of ex NAMA and Big Four accountancy firms types, although its no harm to have a Savills/Cushman & Wakefield back story either.

    At some point we will have a join the dots moment which will probably start off with Haughey/Dermot Desmond, the IFSC, the Celtic Tiger and then leading through the crash, the Troika/NAMA and how events have unfolded since detailing who has benefited from all this and who are its victims.

    It looks like it is all beginning to unravel though and we might just get some good old fashioned people power and policies that just might be for the common good.


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    #249
    Cerveza
    Closed Accounts Posts: 424 ✭✭Cerveza


    People with pcp shouldn’t apply anyway.


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    #250
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Cal4567 wrote: »
    Yes, Urbeo, yet another vehicle spawned from the property finance world, with its mix of ex NAMA and Big Four accountancy firms types, although its no harm to have a Savills/Cushman & Wakefield back story either.

    At some point we will have a join the dots moment which will probably start off with Haughey/Dermot Desmond, the IFSC, the Celtic Tiger and then leading through the crash, the Troika/NAMA and how events have unfolded since detailing who has benefited from all this and who are its victims.

    It looks like it is all beginning to unravel though and we might just get some good old fashioned people power and policies that just might be for the common good.
    Those dots will just be a squiggle!


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    #251
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cal4567 wrote: »
    Yes, Urbeo, yet another vehicle spawned from the property finance world, with its mix of ex NAMA and Big Four accountancy firms types, although its no harm to have a Savills/Cushman & Wakefield back story either.

    At some point we will have a join the dots moment which will probably start off with Haughey/Dermot Desmond, the IFSC, the Celtic Tiger and then leading through the crash, the Troika/NAMA and how events have unfolded since detailing who has benefited from all this and who are its victims.

    It looks like it is all beginning to unravel though and we might just get some good old fashioned people power and policies that just might be for the common good.

    A quarter of tds are landlords and others have interests in property, not going to happen.


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    #252
    FutureGuy
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,237 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    JizzBeans wrote: »
    If the current generation of first time buyers have spent their 20's doing things like....


    1. Traveling the world
    2. Spending 3-6 years in college
    3. Living in Australia for a couple of years
    4. Buying new cars
    5. Buying the latest smartphones
    6. poor family planning
    7. Going on expensive holidays every summer
    8. Boozing every weekend
    9. Moving out with friends to live the life
    Then they shouldn't expect to get mortgage approval in their 30's now because they are "ready to settle down"



    Are people really surprised at the recent ERSI report findings? There is nothing inherently wrong with these activities as such, but they are not exactly compatible with saving for a deposit either.


    For most ordinary people, home ownership is a long and difficult journey, takes years of planning, saving, sacrifice etc. Its not something you decide to undertake on a whim because your are "getting on".


    Cant blame the banks and government for everything, personal responsibility has to play a part, no?


    It's not fair, but it's easy and convenient.

    - Blame the government, but spend 25k on your wedding a year earlier.
    - Blame the government, but too proud to work in a McDonalds part-time to get more money into savings for a mortgage.
    - Blame the government, but have a car loan to service your 191 car that replaced your perfectly fine 131 car.
    - Blame the government, but spend 60/70 per week on Starbucks and takeaways.

    We scrimped and saved for 4 full years. No fancy holiday, cut down on luxury, didn't go on expensive holidays, didn't change car, had a beautifully intimate small wedding for 6,000 euro (inc honeymoon). Bought a house this time last year in a beautiful area where we always wanted to live.


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    #253
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,986 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Maybe I musing something iin this whole Housing, Mortgage, First time buyer challenge, Debate. Single, I faced the same challenges back in 2001 when I got my mortgage. From Dublin, I ended up purchasing a humble cottage in Laois. At the time I had little choice as property prices in Dublin jusy beyond my reach. I faced 3 years of daily commute to Dublin and before villages, towns in Kildare we're bypassed, average drive home was 4 hours and I'm not kidding.

    There was absolutely no government supports, apart from mortgage interest relief for a few years.

    I'm not trying to minimise the challenges first time buyers are facing and there was certainly no investment funds buying up entire estates but little has really changed in Ireland since I took the plunge. I'm not at all sure government can solve these issues.

    I should also state back in 2000, Mortgage applications very very complex and strict criteria applied and this long before Central Bank introduced rules after the crash.

    One thing I do think might be a game changer is Finance Ireland new 20 year fixed rate mortgages, the state a major stakeholder and perhaps this might be a mechanism were government could offer indirect support with regard to mortgage approvals, applications.

    Prices will not decrease, that's just economics but if more people can get manageable fix rate mortgages, this surely could help encourage supply and encourage developments. Worth pointing out Ireland has by far the most expensive mortgages in Europe and this rarely ever addressed and no, its nothing to do with capitalisation requirements of banks, this is a 40 year outrage.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #254
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    It's not fair, but it's easy and convenient.

    - Blame the government, but spend 25k on your wedding a year earlier.
    - Blame the government, but too proud to work in a McDonalds part-time to get more money into savings for a mortgage.
    - Blame the government, but have a car loan to service your 191 car that replaced your perfectly fine 131 car.
    - Blame the government, but spend 60/70 per week on Starbucks and takeaways.

    We scrimped and saved for 4 full years. No fancy holiday, cut down on luxury, didn't go on expensive holidays, didn't change car, had a beautifully intimate small wedding for 6,000 (inc honeymoon). Bought a house this time last year in a beautiful area where we always wanted to live.

    I've a friend and a sibling like that. Literally change their cars for new ones every year and still complain about the fact they "can't afford to buy". I could do with upgrading my own car because of all the baby stuff we have to cart around but I wouldn't even think about it until we draw down our mortgage, which will likely be in a few months.

    Parents gave me money a while ago which they said would have been what they'd contribute to our wedding costs (we are engaged but couldn't plan a wedding because of covid and other factors). In the end I shrugged off the idea of a wedding for the next while and invested the gift instead. It's tripled in value now and will be a large chunk towards deposit, solicitor fees, redecorating etc. Our plan now is to keep the wedding small and only have our close friends and family at it.


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    #255
    elefant
    Registered Users Posts: 4,669 ✭✭✭elefant


    It's a great illustration of just how dysfunctional the housing market is that it's being floated by anyone as a perfectly reasonable step for people years into their careers, in well-paying jobs, to move back home to their parents for a couple of years to afford to buy. So grim.


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    #256
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    elefant wrote: »
    It's a great illustration of just how dysfunctional the housing market is that it's being floated by anyone as a perfectly reasonable step for people years into their careers, in well-paying jobs, to move back home to their parents for a couple of years to afford to buy. So grim.
    You could view it as grim or as a practical solution. If it solves that problem what's actually wrong with it? If someone is so concerned about what others might think they may not be quite so grown up just yet.


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    #257
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,302 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    is_that_so wrote: »
    You could view it as grim or as a practical solution. If it solves that problem what's actually wrong with it? If someone is so concerned about what others might think they may not be quite so grown up just yet.

    And for those where it isn't an option? Tough luck is it?


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    #258
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    is_that_so wrote: »
    You could view it as grim or as a practical solution. If it solves that problem what's actually wrong with it? If someone is so concerned about what others might think they may not be quite so grown up just yet.

    Nobody is saying they won't do it because of what others think, but it isn't a viable option for many people.


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    #259
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    And for those where it isn't an option? Tough luck is it?

    Apparently one should also be able to rent and save for a house, no two houses, if they can't bunk with their parents. They just need to stop spending all their money on iphones, something something... avocado.


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    #260
    Das Reich
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Das Reich


    Who can work remotely and is young can buy in this lovely French speaking town in Southern Italy (no one knows exactly why they speak French and when they arrived) mass emigration to Canada left the town empty and nice houses for around 20k.

    https://www.idealista.it/vendita-case/faeto-foggia/?ordine=prezzi-asc


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    #261
    elefant
    Registered Users Posts: 4,669 ✭✭✭elefant


    is_that_so wrote: »
    You could view it as grim or as a practical solution. If it solves that problem what's actually wrong with it? If someone is so concerned about what others might think they may not be quite so grown up just yet.

    Having fully grown men and women return to living with their parents out of financial necessity, while working in well-paid jobs, is clearly a regressive step.

    It's grim that the 'practical solution' means sacrificing independence.


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    #262
    SnuggyBear
    Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭SnuggyBear


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    And for those where it isn't an option? Tough luck is it?

    No they have other options. We have one example of a guy on this thread who earns 50k in Dublin and got approval for a mortgage and can buy in Dublin. Then we have someone claiming doctors can't afford to buy a house, lol.


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    #263
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,849 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    It's not fair, but it's easy and convenient.

    - Blame the government, but spend 25k on your wedding a year earlier.
    - Blame the government, but too proud to work in a McDonalds part-time to get more money into savings for a mortgage.
    - Blame the government, but have a car loan to service your 191 car that replaced your perfectly fine 131 car.
    - Blame the government, but spend 60/70 per week on Starbucks and takeaways.

    We scrimped and saved for 4 full years. No fancy holiday, cut down on luxury, didn't go on expensive holidays, didn't change car, had a beautifully intimate small wedding for 6,000 euro (inc honeymoon). Bought a house this time last year in a beautiful area where we always wanted to live.




    While there is of course an element of truth to this for some people it is often just a form or self-congratulation by those espousing it. When their starting position might not be comparable in any sense to those they are giving the advice to


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    #264
    SnuggyBear
    Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭SnuggyBear


    elefant wrote: »
    Having fully grown men and women return to living with their parents out of financial necessity, while working in well-paid jobs, is clearly a regressive step.

    It's grim that the 'practical solution' means sacrificing independence.

    I was asked how I bought a house on 24k a year and I explained how. Not sure in what world 24k is a well paid job. If a couple on 100k to 120k combined living in any part of the country can't buy a house its on them. Regardless of being able to move back home.


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    #265
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,555 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    SnuggyBear wrote: »
    I was asked how I bought a house on 24k a year and I explained how. Not sure in what world 24k is a well paid job. If a couple on 100k to 120k combined living in any part of the country can't buy a house its on them. Regardless of being able to move back home.

    ...no its not, theres clearly something very deeply gone wrong regarding property and land, financialisation of our economies has failed


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    #266
    SnuggyBear
    Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭SnuggyBear


    Anyone ever watch those shows on rte where a guy helps people with money management? Says everything you need to know. Absolute idiots with money and clueless to how bad they are until it's pointed out to them.


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    #267
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,555 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    SnuggyBear wrote: »
    Anyone ever watch those shows on rte where a guy helps people with money management? Says everything you need to know. Absolute idiots with money and clueless to how bad they are until it's pointed out to them.

    ....yes some humans do indeed struggle with money matters, but no, not all do, some are extremely good with their money, yet still find themselves unable to provide themselves with their most critical of needs, in particular property related, theres clearly something deep at fault here


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    #268
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Very few people can/will up sticks like that. Also to run the country we need teachers, nurses, guards, accountants, bin men........we need these people in the same regions we need doctors, programmers, finance specialists etc.

    The state needs to build themselves, and cheaply on state land. Then the impetuous for foreign groups to enter the market to rent to councils is gone and these houses can go to regular mortgage holders at a reasonable price.

    I completely agree with some of what's being said, I'm just sale agreed and we definitely sacrificed to get here (and got a bit lucky which sped up the process), no car, holidays for a couple of days in Ireland, extra work where we could, would love to get married but just can't until after drawdown. But we are also lucky in that we have very stable jobs, not on huge money but comfortable. The lack of supply for single people is an issue, there should be housing stock of small 1 and 2 beds available but again these all go to invesent funds essentially.

    Neither point is wrong, people need to sacrifice generally to get a mortgage, be that the sacrifice of building a good, stable career and savings or the holidays/cars etc but in the same token the large number of investment funds mean it is difficult in certain markets to get access to what should be possible.


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    #269
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    SnuggyBear wrote: »
    Anyone ever watch those shows on rte where a guy helps people with money management? Says everything you need to know. Absolute idiots with money and clueless to how bad they are until it's pointed out to them.

    Do you base all your beliefs on anecdotal evidence? I bought a house on a low wage therefore anyone can. I saw some people on a TV show who are bad with money therefore everyone who can't buy a house is bad with money etc.

    And FWIW, I will be buying in a few months, so I'm not particularly in one camp and jumping to defend my spending habits. I just think you are way too simplistic in your approach.


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    #270
    elefant
    Registered Users Posts: 4,669 ✭✭✭elefant


    SnuggyBear wrote: »
    I was asked how I bought a house on 24k a year and I explained how. Not sure in what world 24k is a well paid job. If a couple on 100k to 120k combined living in any part of the country can't buy a house its on them. Regardless of being able to move back home.

    A single man or woman on 60k a year looking for a home to buy in Dublin isn't getting far while paying Dublin rent. I feel despondent for my friends and family in Ireland in this kind of situation. They're expected to grow up, mature and quit any youthful frivolities on one hand, and infantalise themselves by sacrificing their adult independence and personal freedom on the other.

    I'm not having a go at you, by the way. It seems from your reply that it may have come off that way. Suggesting that people move back in with their parents to save is a very common trope in these discussions on boards.


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    #271
    greenfarm
    Site Banned Posts: 21 ✭greenfarm


    I agree with OP, we baby young adults for way too long now and act like old age doesnt happen

    We call 24 year olds kids and think 40 is still young.

    In reality 24 is almost past absolute peak fertility for women and 40 is middle age if your extremely lucky to make it to 80.

    Thats no fault of our generation, in school we are not thought about money and ease it brings to life and we dont talk about old age and diseases. Most people in Ireland by age 50 have some kind of co-morbidity and health is declining rapidly.

    We need to hurry up and stop having 4 year college courses that could be done in 2.


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