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Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Inflation and QE aside, I find the broader uncertainty when it comes to the international economy rather extraordinary at the moment. There are some serious dark clouds on the horizon and it's having very little impact on market sentiment currently either internationally or domestically. I mean, we have a supply chain crisis globally which is impacting on a multitude of industries, and we have an energy crisis in Europe which seems to be unparalleled in living memory. I've BBC News on in the background and they are briefly discussing how energy intensive manufacturers are having to cease production and there is the risk of entire industries collapsing. It is remarkable. The fact that key market indexes are doing so well is giving a lot of commentators comfort ... but then we come back to QE. Is it not obvious what is happening?

    It's all OK though, the fundamentals of the economy are strong ... demand is strong. That's why such crises have arisen and it will iron itself out and will have little impact on peoples lives. Or so we are told anyways!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭yagan


    Absenting what's happening in the UK what inflation are we seeing at present? Energy prices can fluctuate all the time, little wind across Europe in September for instance meant a dip in wind generated power which pulled demand for LNG and oil. Also the post pandemic building materials spike continues to abate as production gets back up to speed.

    Rents seem the most obvious runaway cost, but that's a matter of local planning rather than global supply prices.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    The energy crisis originates in China with their energy needs growing faster than their production of Coal. This added with the trade war with Australia has China turning to the GAS market and in turn pushing prices up in Europe as Russian gas goes to china.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,145 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    yes elements of this thinking is coming from both kelton and mcwilliams work, but not entirely, but many a time of both been proven right, but again, not entirely, we have got to stop with this balanced budget nonsense, it is causing astonishing damage, particularly for younger generations, i.e. your kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews..... its also important to note, mcwilliams advice was in fact to implement a 'temporary' banking guarantee, but doing what we did, we in fact completely exonerated the whole fire sectors, in particular the finance sector, and theyve gone about their merry way, davy etc....



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    We're seeing inflation across a wide range of goods and services, CSO figures have inflation running at 3% economy wide currently. Not insignificant.

    10% transport. 7.3% housing / utilities. Significant construction inflation costs too, 8.3% currently. These increases impact on people when it comes to their day to day expenses. I don't think its insignificant and solely related to energy costs. You say the pressures are alleviating, but the opposite is happening currently according to the CSO. Inflation at 1.6% in June vs 3% in August. We're still waiting on September figures but the suggestions are that it will be higher than 3%.

    International monetary policy makers are obviously hoping inflation is a temporary phenomenon as economies reopen, but the weeks are turning into months at this stage. Covid starting to become a distant memory for some.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    I read here that construction material costs are rising 30% plus. I was talking at launch time to my sister who is a QS and asked her about this. She said overall material cost are running about 10%. She said only some materials such as steel is rising quickly due to supply shock caused by the pandemic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,185 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    I'm not even going to engage with the merits (or lack thereof) in permanent deficit spending, however the fact of the matter is that EU fiscal rules forbid us from permanent deficit spending - given our already high debt-to-GDP ratio, we were (and will be post covid) prevented from growing that debt-to-GDP ratio any further.

    So can you please drop it, its pie-in-the-sky stuff and has no real bearing on the current or future reality of the Irish property market.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    If we compare prices in August 2022 to August 2019 (Before covid) they have risen by 1.85% overall.

    The CSO headline figure of 3% has a base effect built in by comparing deflated prices in 2020 along with the impact of VAT rates returning to normal rates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭yagan


    The main event between June and August was the post pandemic reopening, so until we get a few post pandemic quarters it's extremely premature to assert that that three month inflation snapshot is a new norm.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    Like temporarily putting someone on life support. He uses that crap to try and shift the blame.

    We're in an economic union. The only thing we could do is default in our debts. Say 50% of the most recent maturing €100 billion and then start buying back the other €150 billion at the new discounted rate. That would be pain now. €150 billion is probably manageable.

    The other option, petition EU for a debt haircut like Greece got. As it stands I think the odds of escaping a day of reckoning are declining, unless the euro enters hyper inflation, unless you're a farmer...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭yagan


    Timber has fallen 65% from its May high on the Chicago futures market, but that's not a headline that helps venders frighten buyers into panic.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    I agree that it is far too early to call and I think there's so much uncertainty regardless. However I would caution any thought that discounts either possibility currently. The US are months ahead of us in terms of reopening and their inflation rate is still stubbornly sitting above 5% when the Federal Reserve thought it would have dropped off. It's not as 'transitionary' as they first thought and they've begun to acknowledge that. We're seeing that many input costs are reaching all time highs right here and now. I don't really understand how inflation can lessen significantly in the coming months considering the impact of those increased input costs take months to be felt for the end consumer. As you say though, more time needed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭enricoh


    Sod Chicago, i wish it had dropped 65% in Irish builders providers!

    I read construction inflation is at 8% this year. Will fianna fail be able to resist throwing petrol on the fire on budget day?! I doubt it! The boom is to get boomier, to rob a line off Bertie!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭yagan


    I think the commodities and materials shortages will even out, but there is now labour shortage issues starting to appear, and that's globally with China I believe having hit the milestone this year of peak workforce.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,689 ✭✭✭wassie


    They starting clearing shipments of Aus coal again last week in small quantaties in a sign of loosening of their 'unofficial ban'. Chinese provinces have been hit with power rationing so severe that in some places factories have been allowed to operate for only two days a week, threatening economic growth and the global supply chain. Doesn't bode well for the near term of materials.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    There will be a lot of demand for commodities If Biden gets his 1.5Trillion infrastructure funded and China continue with belt and road initiative.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    If the fallout from the Chinese property crash puts a pin in the unsustainable direction our housing market is heading then I welcome it. Some of our "economic growth" metrics might be hit of course from the contagion but I don't think the situation on the ground for the individuals will be worse and in fact could be better. At this stage, those looking for a correction in the housing market need to look beyond our shores as the government won't correct it!

    As a side note, I received an ad for one of those zero/low fee trading apps when watching that YouTube video and it is timely that I comment about a possible correction as I it will burn a lot of those retail traders who jumped into those apps over the last couple of years.

    Post edited by Amadan Dubh on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    I think it is important to remember that this has been brought about deliberately by China with the introduction of their 3 red lines policy.

    This is a political action with the CCP showing their strength and taking back control over a sector of the economy after overseas investors paid for it. They are deliberately ensuring that onshore bonds and household are paid and offshore bondholders get burned.

    There are lots of example from insurance companies to airlines in recent years where China have nationalised company's in similar difficulty and I think we will see the same here. China will manage the crisis especially ahead of next year.

    It is highly unlikely to impact the Irish housing market.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    But a global economic "slowdown" caused by the Chinese economy could lead to more QE and lower interest rates which would impact yield hungry investors and their pursuit for gains, which would affect Irish property as they pump more cash into it. I think that's what you said before?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    I meant that it would be highly unlikely to cause a collapse in irish house prices



  • Registered Users Posts: 152 ✭✭Eclectic Econometrics


    I've stolen these figures from The Street .com


    In 2010, they made up just 10% of all daily stock trades, and an even smaller percentage of daily option trades. Today, retail traders make up as much as 25% of the market.

    In Dec. 2019, the Options Clearing Corporation cleared 227 million option contracts. That may sound like a lot, but between the 20 trading days in December that works out to about 11 million option contracts per day on average.

    In Feb. 2021, that number almost tripled to 572 million, or over 30 million contracts PER DAY. That’s a 3X increase in daily option trading volume in 13 months!


    The amount of these guys (WSB-esque) that are not actually buying stock but are just buying options is unreal. Don't get me wrong, I am sure that a fair few will get burnt (in your scenario) but if you looked at the type of trades people who signed up in the last couple of years make it would be 100 people treating it like sports betting and Willy Wonka golden tickets for every 1 who is Warren Buffett buying and holding.

    It's a casino baby, to the moon! *rocket emoji*



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    Some very reasonable views in these two IT articles yesterday; from the perspectives of both the small landlords and from smaller players in the construction sector. It would appear that the non-voting institutional investors are the only ones benefitting from our housing crisis at this stage, which indicates to me that perhaps they had far too much of an influence over the policy making over the last 10 years, Irish Institutional Property being the main industry lobby group. Both views in the articles below flag the cost of living increasing and future economic prosperity of the country being threatened as a result of a continuation of the housing crisis.

    The landlord view is put forward by the MD of Sherry Fitzgerald in Ireland, Marian Finnegan, in particular she highlights how so many small landlords have exited the market in recent years due to the failure of the government's policy and she discusses maybe the generous tax situation for institutional landlords that is unavailable to small landlords as being one of the main factors.

    The construction sector view put forward is in relation to the labour shortages and how this needs to be addressed. One anecdote is from an Irish man living in Australia the last ten years hoping to set up a little construction shop back in Wexford with the hope of bringing home some Irish emigrants but that the cost of living would put them off returning.

    Current market conditions are clearly a direct response to inadequate supply levels and yet the Government’s policy to date does not address this imbalance at all in the short term. Instead, it focuses on capping rental inflation in key urban areas. This is disappointing, it is akin to treating symptoms rather than addressing the cause of an illness.

    There is clear evidence that rental yields for private investors are too low. Take the example of a two-bed apartment in the centre of Dublin, with a 70 per cent loan-to-value mortgage. Based on current capital values, rental levels and taking into consideration all expenses, the current net yield is 2.5 per cent.

    In this example, the Government will receive 25 per cent of the total rent paid by the tenant through tax.

    The lack of rental accommodation is leading to significant hardship for many and is a potential threat to our future economic success. We should leave no stone unturned in seeking a solution, however unpalatable to the populist culture.

    After 10 years in Australia, and with a new baby in the family, the 36-year-old – an economic emigrant of the Irish property crash – is returning home to set up a similar business, Dunwood Services, in Arklow. He has spied an opportunity to bring Irish construction workers back from Australia and elsewhere to meet a demand in Ireland.

    Many Irish, like Wright, are in the same situation: it is “decision time” – after a decade down under, stay any longer in Australia and you are “probably here forever”, he says.

    While the pandemic has intensified the pull to return home, the high cost of living in Ireland and of buying a home are big turn-offs. Wright sees this as a major obstacle to the Government attracting back workers, particularly general labourers, needed to build the roads, bridges, tunnels, schools and houses under the €165 billion plan.

    “With the National Development Plan, everything comes down to money. It won’t work until the cost of living matches up to your wages,” says Wright.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,522 ✭✭✭fliball123


    China and Ireland's property market are completely different. China (according to your video) has 90 Million vacant properties sitting empty?? That fact alone is enough to be confident that Ireland wont see any contagion from this. We don't have enough supply to meet demand. Until we build prices are not going down anytime soon.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Browney7


    I'd be interested to see the calculations behind her 2.5 net yield for the BTL investor with a 70% LTV and what term and interest rate she assumes for the loan. Would have been an interesting example if she laid out the gross yield and deductions.

    Tax is high for all individual investors - if you invest in a company that pays a 5% dividend yield you lose up to half in tax aswell if you're on the higher rate of income tax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,764 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    2.5% yield on a 2 bed apartment seems way off reality



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Im starting to see 2 markets acting totally differently now in Ireland.

    You have the sub €450k asking price houses that are selling for above asking price easily.

    And you have the €550k - 600k and above asking price houses where the EAs have chanced their arm actually not making their asking prices.

    Takes a while for it to shake out but you can see it in the PPR for the latest houses added to it.


    I think that trend will continue for a while sub €450k asking going gor above asking and €550k plus asking going for below asking.

    But if I was in the market for a first house I would certainly be doing anything to get on the ladder at this point.

    I dont see the sub €450k market getting any better. I am of the opinion that you get on the ladder as fast as you can or you end up renting forever, the way things are going these days.


    I just dont see how anyone is going to fix this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    I'd guess there is some kind of bell-curve distribution of what people can afford to spend, and it probably is heavily concentrated in the €350k-500k zone, with things that are €600k+ being a much smaller portion of the demand side of the market, even though new builds tilt heavily toward providing houses on the more expensive end.

    I also don't really see a way out of this. The fundamental issue is that we don't have enough housing for a good market, and getting more housing online is just too slow and too expensive to remedy it any time soon. There is a lot of new building, which is good, but it's not going to solve the issues for quite some time yet, and even if it does, then we still have to solve the infrastructure problems which seem to be even further down the line from being addressed.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,025 Mod ✭✭✭✭GoldFour4


    Yeah this makes a lot of sense based on what I'm seeing. There seems to be a lot of AIP for €400k or so which has people eyeing property in that range and being fairly driven to go sale agreed on a property they actually like in that range and so are willing to go over asking by 10-15% if needed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    UK steel industry are making big noises about the spike in gas prices hitting them hard so id imagine alot of companies making construction materials will be feeling it too plus increased transportation costs suggest to me build costs arnt going down any time soon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    Some housing related news in the Budget; what a joke of a country;

    "€168 million in current expenditure, or 7 per cent increase, for 14,000 HAP tenancies".

    Infuriating and deeply troubling to see the government further blow up the bubble in the rental sector by pulling money from thin air or its magic money tree to keep up the farcical HAP policy. You can bet that this money is ending up in pockets of people who perhaps have had a hand in perpetuating the policy, which is my own belief. It's criminal.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/budget-2022-main-points-what-s-in-it-for-you-1.4698158?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fbudget-2022-main-points-what-s-in-it-for-you-1.4698158



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Is this not just in line with recent rent increases..... If it was not increased where would these people live... You need to have an alternative supply of housing before HAP can be dealt with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    These aren't "homeless" people on the streets. They are already living somewhere. At the equivalent amount of a higher rate tax payer getting a pay rise of €24k, it is a huge amount to pay per person just for their housing into the pocket of private landlords. We are paying over a billion a year in HAP leases and it has created a rental bubble, no doubt about it, there is scope for a 40% correction in rents quite easily the way things have gone yet the government is blocking this correction through incompetence, or perhaps criminality via accession to lobbyists requests, with this ridiculous HAP scheme.

    This €1bn+ per year is coming from where and is ending up where? It is good money being thrown at bad and makes me sick, this budget today just reinforces how FF and FG have destroyed a prosperous future for this country over the last 20 years. The country will end up back where it was at the turn of the century unless the government makes dramatic changes to how our society and economy, including housing, is structured, with SF probably measuring for curtains in the various government department buildings at this stage. The highs and lows of the last 20 years will seem like a dream.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    how is rent due a 40% correction? Rent won’t drop until there there is enough supply that gives renters choices. At the moment you are lucky to find somewhere to rent. If people don't pay the rent someone else will and then where are they to live?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭lossless


    There is never going to be enough supply.


    Never.


    The past, current and, hilariously, future policies of our governments are trying to dig down to get out of a hole. Then there's the rest that want it to continue.


    I simply refuse to accept that the powers that be don't know what they're doing, that they arent being told 10 times a day that what they're doing isnt going to fix shyt, or that they are simply incompetent. It's all just too stupid to be stupidity.


    Trying to increase finite supply against a background of infinite demand is foolish beyond belief.


    Hence "crisis".


    Throwing more money at an obviously intractable problem ffs. Why not give each person in the country 10 million euro each to pay the rent? Write it off as another medium term i.o.u to the future. Why not? Then allow investment funds to buy every blade of grass, guarantee to pay exorbitant rent on the grass, allow 35 million extra people into the country, build 20 million houses and so on and on and on and on and on.


    Groundhog day personified as a country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    I feel rent is appropriately measured against salaries as salaried workers are renters and I look at the rent levels in this country and do not feel it is the big increases in salaries which have created demand at higher rents but the actions or at least the complicity of the State itself which have pushed them up and would see, without State meddling, rents having scope to drop 40% before levelling off and not being subject to material increases and decreases YoY, in the same way salaries are not subject to volatile swings YoY.

    So it's not that the correction is due but that there is scope for it without some of the whale activity occuring by the State. As I think many are starting to realise with assets in general, there is no orderly unwinding of the bubble and our housing issue is part of that with the only way for it to perpetuate being the State to keep propping it up indefinitely in various ways. SF getting into government in the next election will probably be blamed ultimately for what happens should it stutter along a few more years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Although you are trying your best not to turn the post into another one of your xenophobia posts it still doesn't answer the question of how rents will drop 40%



  • Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭lossless


    This is precisely the thing, that there is nothing orderly or natural about the housing situation. It is absolutely a conceived and perpetuated artificial crisis by the governments.


    As I said above, there is just no way this is accidental. There are a few glaring, blazingly obvious factors that are underpinning the whole housing crisis. And the governments point blank refuse to acknowledge much less address them.


    How long can this go on? How many years more of the exact same corruption will be tolerated before people take to the streets? It's amazing it's gone on this long.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭lossless


    Utter hogwash.


    Has it occurred to the thing on your neck that the combination of an unsolvable problem + "the unspeakables" may, just possibly, perhaps, be related to the unspeakable factor? You know, that years upon years of the same result may require a full appraisal of the situation rather than the tunnel vision of selected factors?


    Here, solve this equation for me


    2 + ? + ? (7/? + 5) = ?


    That's the equation the knuckledraggers in this country are trying to solve. Can you see the problem?


    And I did answer your question about how rents could drop, that the answer lies in not perpetuating a broken-brained conversation.


    Or go ahead and keep trying to solve the unsolveable. Yeah, that's far more masturbatory. Maybe the answer is the chinese decouplement of the fed backed commodities that Centra sold last week as a long term fiscal guaranteed by Ugandan sentiment.


    Or maybe not.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    I agree with your point that rent is now at a level that crippling the country and is a risk to future growth. But rent is not going to reduce until people have different accommodation options and are not forced into paying high rents. Personally I don't agree with HAP or the long term leases that are taken out as it is not value for money but you can't just stop HAP without providing an alternative solution.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭lossless


    Any ideas yourself about the fascinatingly unexaminable, inexplicable housing crisis?

    Build more houses, maybe?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    According to a CBRE report the prime yield on a house is 3.75%

    (The prime yield is the yield of a property in a prime location built to the highest standard.)




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭Timing belt



    When people take out a loan to buy an asset (e.g. a mortgage) this leads to Asset inflation as more money is created and it is chasing the same supply of Assets. This asset inflation then leads to more people taking out loans to buy assets to increase their perceived wealth and this Debt/Asset inflation loop keeps going with a greater % of an individuals income being used to service the loan/debt.

    Eventually the debt servicing cost gets so great that the individual defaults on the debt or you end up with job losses when the economy slows down as there is less money circulating in the economy as it is used to service the debt. The issues come when to many people default or loose their jobs at the same time as this leads to fire sale and asset depreciation. The asset depreciation then generates a downward spiral in property prices.

    If you look at the central banks data on lending to private households you can see that mortgage growth started again in 2017 and this has been the extra money that has been chasing the same no of houses (as little new houses were built) which lead to property price rises.

    If housing was to be fixed and prevent Boom/Bust then there needs to be an adequate supply of houses so that the new money created when the mortgage is drawn down is chasing an increased supply of assets which keeps the price of housing stable. Without this new supply of housing you will always have property inflation as long as the value of new mortgages is greater than mortgage repayments.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Marius34


    "Belief in conspiracy theories is generally based not on evidence, but in the faith of the believer"

    "Belief in conspiracy theories is associated with biases in reasoning, such as the conjunction fallacy"




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭enricoh


    In the town in the west my missus is from up to 2-3 years ago you could rent a 3 bed semi or bungalow for around 5-600 a month easily.

    Nowadays that's 1000-1200 all due to hap. and with all the anti landlord legislation the last few years there is literally nowhere to rent now.

    A working couple a few years ago could save a few quid while working away, nowadays they are at nothing trying to compete with the government. It won't be long before oz Canada etc come into the conversation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,689 ✭✭✭wassie


    I'd say it already has - and this story is in Westmeath!

    While in Western Australia it was reported back in August

    Overseas nurses, midwives and doctors who want to work in Western Australia will be offered free hotel quarantine and $5000 for flights as part of an international recruitment drive to combat resourcing issues in the state’s hospitals.

    ...the campaign was already in action with 209 junior doctors from the UK and Ireland expected to arrive in WA over the coming week.

    We saw this push-pull effect of Police, Nurses & Tradespeople a decade ago....

    Post edited by wassie on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,185 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Who defines it as a conspiracy theory and not just regular theory (or fact?)

    Either we have had the most incompetent back-to-back governments who keep stumbling at every turn regarding rents, even when plenty of sideline commentators (and no doubt civil servants) have been in their ears with solutions, and yet this hilariously incompetent govt just keep making things worse, or its intentional.

    Occams razor suggests the latter to be honest, the state wanted property prices (and rents) to increase to bring more money back into the exchequer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Its funny.

    I knew not one landlord before rent controls came in who put the rent up every year. Most of the ones I knew would keep the rent the same for the duration of the tenancy, to keep a good tenant.

    Now if a landlord does that they will end up hurting themselves. Also if they dont want to keep a bad tenant they cant do anything about that either.

    Now, of the landlords left in the country I dont think any of them wont be raising the rent by the max at every opportunity.

    The government have caused this. But dont shed a tear for them. They are getting over 50% of the huge rents they caused for themselves.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,931 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    At least one of the same two parties have been in Government for 102 continuous years, name changes nonwithstanding.



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