Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

awec

PropQueries wrote: »

It never made sense to me that Micheal Martin accepted the money hungry Departments of Housing, Health and Public Expenditure while leaving the purse strings firmly in the grasp of FG.

FG have little incentive to help out FF in either housing, health or public expenditure as the Minister for Finance/Fine Gael most likely won't be held responsible for the state of these departments come next election IMO

The only thing that FF can do to salvage themselves in implement proper reforms that don't cost these departments anything (as Pascal won't be providing much help IMO) but that also doesn't appear likely.

Because if he had hid away from these departments his party would have been a laughing stock.

Housing and Health were the biggies during the last election, how can you win an election and then pass on these?

Shelga

jill_valentine wrote: »

If there is, it's the opposite that's happening. People are putting off having families because they haven't got space or security for it, and people living in 5 person house shares or back with mam and dad are going to find it hard to couple up.

I know a couple of folks in their late twenties who all live at home and sometimes treat themselves to a night in the hotel just down the road with their gf/bf. They just take it for granted that privacy is a luxury, a place only to yourselves is something for special occasions.

That's not very condusive to functional adult relationships and I think it's one of the under-discussed aspects of the crisis, the actual material effect it has on people's personal lives.

Well articulated. I agree. Having been at home for nearly 3 years now, you just kind of opt out of romance as it feels pointless. Now, it's not completely the government's fault that I don't put myself out there very much, but you do just feel like it's years and years before your life can really begin, plus you have to get to a certain quite high salary. It doesn't matter how much of your net pay you're saving if you're on €30k in Dublin and trying to buy, as a single person.

Mad_maxx

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

I sense FF know deep down its a shift to the left or annihilation

since Martin became leader , they have shifted sharply to the left and are doing worse than ever

Bass Reeves

timmyntc wrote: »

In fairness that is the right approach - we want REITs to add to supply, not buy existing supply.

Right now between REIT and council we have extra demand but no extra supply.

People forget to fat there is a natural limit to supply. This is mainly down to labour and materials supply. The biggest issue is the punt of labour available. I know no construction worker that is unemployed and no builder not going full tilt. If you want a plumber or electrician to repair something at home be prepared for a 2 week wait. For do any normal work its 3 months +

The way Reits add to supply is mainly by financing projects. Timmy Dooley was talking about trying to get to 35k houses build a year. I cannot see where it will come from

Geuze wrote: »

Surely the whole point of a REIT is to own property?

Do REITs get involved in development, i.e. buying sites, getting planning, design, etc.?

No Reits do not get involved in buying sites or getting planning. What they do is finance builders to build houses or Apartments. While builders can finance house building on a partial scale pre selling to some houses to a REIT may allow them to carry out the development faster.

With apartment blocks there are a necessity as banks are unwilling to finance apartment blocks. Take an Apartment block with some commercial units on the ground floor and maybe offices you could be looking for 50 million in finance for 2-3 years for building costs. Banks are unwilling to get involved in these types of projects any longer

timmyntc

Bass Reeves wrote: »

People forget to fat there is a natural limit to supply. This is mainly down to labour and materials supply. The biggest issue is the punt of labour available. I know no construction worker that is unemployed and no builder not going full tilt. If you want a plumber or electrician to repair something at home be prepared for a 2 week wait. For do any normal work its 3 months +

Of course, labour and materials will eventually reach a shortage situation - but remember that post-08 so much of our industry left entirely, as activity started to ramp up again we quickly reached "shortage" but the industry itself expanded to meet the demand. The fact our construction industry now is so much bigger than in say 2012 is proof enough of that.

Of course construction cannot expand indefinitely, but I believe there is still a long ways to go and plenty more scope for more labour to come into the country and materials to be imported. The govt can and should facilitate this - long term projects like trade schools would help certainly.

Lmkrnr

What was the housing situation like 10 year's ago. Houses were going for small change during the crash, if the government at the time could of foreseen the housing shortage it could of got access to all the stock NAMA snapped up. Hindsight I know.

Fast forward to now where bot only is there a housing shortage but rents are high to. Paddy the tax payer is paying for the HAP ect as these prices go up. Tommy the trust fund manager pays no tax on the houses he rents that the tax payer fund's. The system is wrong. Hopefully it won't last

handlemaster

Lmkrnr wrote: »

What was the housing situation like 10 year's ago. Houses were going for small change during the crash, if the government at the time could of foreseen the housing shortage it could of got access to all the stock NAMA snapped up. Hindsight I know.

Fast forward to now where bot only is there a housing shortage but rents are high to. Paddy the tax payer is paying for the HAP ect as these prices go up. Tommy the trust fund manager pays no tax on the houses he rents that the tax payer fund's. The system is wrong. Hopefully it won't last

Government was bailed out. the same logic can go for buyers there was lots of time to pick up property at lower prices to today.

Cyrus

Villa05 wrote: »

Are we not at 2,5k per month for social housing. That's unaffordable for the majority of workers

Maybe we should get monkeys to run the country

no we arent.

There are some social units that are at that but the overall average will be way below this.

Now should we be paying 2.5k a month for any social housing, absolutely not, its a stupid knee jerk reaction instead of long term planning.

PropQueries

Cyrus wrote: »

no we arent.

There are some social units that are at that but the overall average will be way below this.

Now should we be paying 2.5k a month for any social housing, absolutely not, its a stupid knee jerk reaction instead of long term planning.

Isn't that the same type of argument Leo Varadkar used a few days ago when he appeared to dismiss the fact that there is an overall home ownership problem in Ireland i.e. what home ownership problem?:

"the Tánaiste acknowledged that the Government needs to do far more to improve housing supply. He also acknowledged the fall in home ownership but said - that at 65-70pc – the Irish rate was still higher than USA, UK, France, Germany and elsewhere."

Link to Leo's statement in Irish Independent here: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-is-anti-home-ownership-leo-varadkar-clashes-with-pearse-doherty-40423232.html

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

Isn't that the same type of argument Leo Varadkar used a few days ago when he appeared to dismiss the fact that there is an overall home ownership problem in Ireland i.e. what home ownership problem?:

"the Tánaiste acknowledged that the Government needs to do far more to improve housing supply. He also acknowledged the fall in home ownership but said - that at 65-70pc – the Irish rate was still higher than USA, UK, France, Germany and elsewhere."

Link to Leo's statement in Irish Independent here: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-is-anti-home-ownership-leo-varadkar-clashes-with-pearse-doherty-40423232.html

wouldnt be like you to conflate two completely different things.

maybe you have rumbled who i really am?!?

awec

PropQueries wrote: »

Isn't that the same type of argument Leo Varadkar used a few days ago when he appeared to dismiss the fact that there is an overall home ownership problem in Ireland i.e. what home ownership problem?:

"the Tánaiste acknowledged that the Government needs to do far more to improve housing supply. He also acknowledged the fall in home ownership but said - that at 65-70pc – the Irish rate was still higher than USA, UK, France, Germany and elsewhere."

Link to Leo's statement in Irish Independent here: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-is-anti-home-ownership-leo-varadkar-clashes-with-pearse-doherty-40423232.html

The mind genuinely boggles at how you interpret news articles.

Leo Varadkar : "the government needs to do far more to improve housing supply".

PropQueries: "Leo Varadkar says there's no housing problem".

cnocbui

genericgoon wrote: »

Vacant house/site levies are far too easy to get around. Would make more sense to increase local property tax (LPT) substantially and then give an exemption/credit based on declaration to Revenue that the house is a principal private residence (PPR) and thus switch around the burden of proof and thus ability to punish those making false statements.

In addition, a benchmark of a fair rental contract should be introduced with controlled rents. "Fair" rent could be on the basis of equivalent cost rental or tied explicitly to median incomes (my preference), then give these the same LPT exemption/credit as PPRs. Would also give an opportunity to set a standardized contract that removes the biggest sources of tension between tenants (withheld deposits, maintenance) and landlords (anti-social behaviour, unpaid rent) with clauses relating to third party deposit holding, removing all non-payment related eviction criteria and other needed changes. Offer a fast track RTB scheme (since contract will be known a priori) which means better outcomes against bad landlords (maintenance) and bad tenants (faster eviction for non-payment).

Then introduce a site tax for all undeveloped (and classify it as undeveloped until the houses/apartments are eligible for LPT) zoned land and ramp this up way high and use that revenue to reduce development levies and/or VAT on building. Reform the SHD legislation to be more Japan-like i.e. if your development is consistent with local development plan then can be fast tracked. That should hopefully give a leg up to those who want to build rather than speculative chancers looking to increase site values with deliberately provocative plans.

A lot of people would likely lose money quickly on the above (banks, holiday home owners, developers etc. etc.) but at this point the long term costs of not doing so will be much bigger thanks to emigration, misplaced investment, poverty/homelessness etc.

The Irish tax take from property taxes already exceeds the OECD average.

cnocbui

Bass Reeves wrote: »

People forget to fat there is a natural limit to supply. This is mainly down to labour and materials supply. The biggest issue is the punt of labour available. I know no construction worker that is unemployed and no builder not going full tilt. If you want a plumber or electrician to repair something at home be prepared for a 2 week wait. For do any normal work its 3 months +

The way Reits add to supply is mainly by financing projects. Timmy Dooley was talking about trying to get to 35k houses build a year. I cannot see where it will come from

No Reits do not get involved in buying sites or getting planning. What they do is finance builders to build houses or Apartments. While builders can finance house building on a partial scale pre selling to some houses to a REIT may allow them to carry out the development faster.

With apartment blocks there are a necessity as banks are unwilling to finance apartment blocks. Take an Apartment block with some commercial units on the ground floor and maybe offices you could be looking for 50 million in finance for 2-3 years for building costs. Banks are unwilling to get involved in these types of projects any longer

Their is little to no evidence REIT's are funding supply, and significant evidence they are competing for supply and hoovering up completed supply just before they get to market. Them buying up - not funding - 95% of apartments built in Dublin in 2019, for instance.

Mad_maxx

Lmkrnr wrote: »

What was the housing situation like 10 year's ago. Houses were going for small change during the crash, if the government at the time could of foreseen the housing shortage it could of got access to all the stock NAMA snapped up. Hindsight I know.

Fast forward to now where bot only is there a housing shortage but rents are high to. Paddy the tax payer is paying for the HAP ect as these prices go up. Tommy the trust fund manager pays no tax on the houses he rents that the tax payer fund's. The system is wrong. Hopefully it won't last

government chose to shield Public Servant retirees , not touch pensions in general , there was no money left to buy up property left right and centre so todays thirty somethings got fcuked under the bus

Marius34

cnocbui wrote: »

Their is little to no evidence REIT's are funding supply, and significant evidence they are competing for supply and hoovering up completed supply just before they get to market. Them buying up - not funding - 95% of apartments built in Dublin in 2019, for instance.

I don't think that's precise. The only apartment building, completed in 2019, I'm aware of is Capital Dock. I think landlord Kennedy Wilson was part of the development, before completion.
Where there any other big apartment blocks completion in 2019?

L1011

https://twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/1395342746123124737

One of the three parties of Government does not appear to be aware that the requirement for every apartment to have a parking space was removed some years ago in areas with acceptable public transport. The one with the transport portfolio, at that!

Murph85

I agree with him .multi storey car park nearby at reasonable yearly rates or use gocar or dont have a car...

Eclectic Econometrics

I have read a lot about price increases at the bottom (200-300k) and middle (450-600k) of the market due to bidding wars but from what I have seen at the upper (1m+) and top end (8 fig net worth individuals type houses) my anecdotal impression, from looking at listed prices and final sales prices, is that there is downward negotiation taking place. Not much, but when you knock 5-7% off 1.5 it is still a decent chunk of change.

This house however... I still can't post links, Google "5 Rocky Valley Crescent, Kilmacanogue, Co. Wicklow"..... was first listed for €900,000 and, 2 months later, is now being touted for 1.2. Is anyone buying, or just watching prices, around the €1m mark and have you also seen increases?

With regards to the house itself, I personally think you are better off paying a couple of hundred grand more and living in a more private house in Rathmichael and not have your neighbour directly opposite. I think where there is a discrepancy in house prices in Ireland, as compared to London, is what you get for your money in terms of convenience. Someone touched on something similar (geographical discrepancy) earlier but talked about England/UK as a whole. One day I will formulate exactly what I am talking about, with proper examples, when I have more time.

L1011

Murph85 wrote: »

I agree with him .multi storey car park nearby at reasonable yearly rates or use gocar or dont have a car...

As did the previous Government, hence that's now the regs. Its not going to reduce the cost of apartments by anything now as its already happening!

awec

Eclectic Econometrics wrote: »

I have read a lot about price increases at the bottom (200-300k) and middle (450-600k) of the market due to bidding wars but from what I have seen at the upper (1m+) and top end (8 fig net worth individuals type houses) my anecdotal impression, from looking at listed prices and final sales prices, is that there is downward negotiation taking place. Not much, but when you knock 5-7% off 1.5 it is still a decent chunk of change.

This house however... I still can't post links, Google "5 Rocky Valley Crescent, Kilmacanogue, Co. Wicklow"..... was first listed for €900,000 and, 2 months later, is now being touted for 1.2. Is anyone buying, or just watching prices, around the €1m mark and have you also seen increases?

With regards to the house itself, I personally think you are better off paying a couple of hundred grand more and living in a more private house in Rathmichael and not have your neighbour directly opposite. I think where there is a discrepancy in house prices in Ireland, as compared to London, is what you get for your money in terms of convenience. Someone touched on something similar (geographical discrepancy) earlier but talked about England/UK as a whole. One day I will formulate exactly what I am talking about, with proper examples, when I have more time.

The biggest thing going against that house is the location. It's the wrong side of the N11, there is nothing over there.

Bass Reeves

handlemaster wrote: »

Government was bailed out. the same logic can go for buyers there was lots of time to pick up property at lower prices to today.

I think this is a fact regarding a lot of people in there 30's is how they left the opportunity to buy from 2011-2017/18 slip by them. A lot of them went off and paid as much for a car as a apartment back then. Even in areas of rural Ireland up until last year's there was value in places. There are people renting in places now that they turned there noses up to 3-10 years ago.

The Government were broke and were unable to access borrowings. They were limited by both the EU and the IMF in how they raised it and how they spend it. Maybe they would have had 4-500 million more to play around if the same people who are now on about property prices were willing to pay water taxes.

awec

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think this is a fact regarding a lot of people in there 30's is how they left the opportunity to buy from 2011-2017/18 slip by them. A lot of them went off and paid as much for a car as a apartment back then. Even in areas of rural Ireland up until last year's there was value in places. There are people renting in places now that they turned there noses up to 3-10 years ago.

The Government were broke and were unable to access borrowings. They were limited by both the EU and the IMF in how they raised it and how they spend it. Maybe they would have had 4-500 million more to play around if the same people who are now on about property prices were willing to pay water taxes.

I think that's a bit out of touch.

Not many people in their 30s today would have been in a position to buy in the early 10s.

timmyntc

awec wrote: »

I think that's a bit out of touch.

Not many people in their 30s today would have been in a position to buy in the early 10s.

Most people in their 20s around 2010 would be lucky to have a job

Eclectic Econometrics

awec wrote: »

The biggest thing going against that house is the location. It's the wrong side of the N11, there is nothing over there.

I have something for you, Awec!

When I first looked at this house I didn't like the kitchen but I came across an interior designer who lives in the estate, in one of 3 or 4 or the same type house, who redesigned her kitchen.

If you Google "My home is a guinea pig for my business ideas" (it's a Times link) that kitchen is in the exact same type house, but is several levels nicer IMHO.

L1011

Gradius was thread-banned from this thread and appears to have forgotten that - or I'm going soft in my old age and not infracting for a breach. But the ban stands.

Gradius - do not post in this thread again. Do not reply to this post.

Cyrus

Eclectic Econometrics wrote: »

I have read a lot about price increases at the bottom (200-300k) and middle (450-600k) of the market due to bidding wars but from what I have seen at the upper (1m+) and top end (8 fig net worth individuals type houses) my anecdotal impression, from looking at listed prices and final sales prices, is that there is downward negotiation taking place. Not much, but when you knock 5-7% off 1.5 it is still a decent chunk of change.

This house however... I still can't post links, Google "5 Rocky Valley Crescent, Kilmacanogue, Co. Wicklow"..... was first listed for €900,000 and, 2 months later, is now being touted for 1.2. Is anyone buying, or just watching prices, around the €1m mark and have you also seen increases?

With regards to the house itself, I personally think you are better off paying a couple of hundred grand more and living in a more private house in Rathmichael and not have your neighbour directly opposite. I think where there is a discrepancy in house prices in Ireland, as compared to London, is what you get for your money in terms of convenience. Someone touched on something similar (geographical discrepancy) earlier but talked about England/UK as a whole. One day I will formulate exactly what I am talking about, with proper examples, when I have more time.

you are assuming someone spending 1.2m could goto 1.5m easily, its not normally the case to be honest.

regardless that place looks like awful value, i wouldnt pay 1.2m to live in kilmacanogue under any circumstances but certainly for that house.

what i have seen in the market for 1m+ houses, if they are walk in in a desirable location they are selling quickly and generally over asking, if they arent they are hanging around.

the 3m+ properties are generally still a slow sell barring something exceptional (for example cnoc aluinn on coliemore road sold quickly at 3.5m)

cnocbui

L1011 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/1395342746123124737

One of the three parties of Government does not appear to be aware that the requirement for every apartment to have a parking space was removed some years ago in areas with acceptable public transport. The one with the transport portfolio, at that!

Such is the quality of the people running and administering the running of the country.

awec

Eclectic Econometrics wrote: »

I have something for you, Awec!

When I first looked at this house I didn't like the kitchen but I came across an interior designer who lives in the estate, in one of 3 or 4 or the same type house, who redesigned her kitchen.

If you Google "My home is a guinea pig for my business ideas" (it's a Times link) that kitchen is in the exact same type house, but is several levels nicer IMHO.

I can't read the Times article as it's behind a paywall. The one you linked the kitchen is fairly meh, I would expect better in a house that size.

For some bizarre reason it has a sink on the island and a sink on the counter by the window, waste of space. I'm guessing the island was added later. I think cooking in that kitchen would be fairly awkward due to the layout of the hob relative to counter space.

It has a wine fridge though!

timmyntc

L1011 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/1395342746123124737

One of the three parties of Government does not appear to be aware that the requirement for every apartment to have a parking space was removed some years ago in areas with acceptable public transport. The one with the transport portfolio, at that!

Can they build apartments with zero car parking spots? (or close to zero)

Its definitely not or everyone but plenty of people would be happy to forgo the parking space or the car entirely

Villa05

MacronvFrugals wrote:

On Brendan O' Connors's show last August Skehan proclaimed "Dublin will be a city for the wealthy in the future"

I'm sure they'll be happy to rent at 2.5k per month in a social housing block

Mad_maxx wrote:

since Martin became leader , they have shifted sharply to the left and are doing worse than ever

As they continue to lead the housing market with demand led policies, I think your wrong

Lmkrnr wrote:

What was the housing situation like 10 year's ago. Houses were going for small change during the crash, if the government at the time could of foreseen the housing shortage it could of got access to all the stock NAMA snapped up. Hindsight I know.

Housing and rental shortage was flagged as early as 2013 by many including Ronan Lyons one of the most respected voices on housing

Cyrus wrote:

no we aren't.
There are some social units that are at that but the overall average will be way below this.

I'm not talking about the average, I'm referring to the direction. Social was always a significant discount to the market and very seldom in premium areas. Who signed off on this policy

awec wrote:

Leo Varadkar : "the government needs to do far more to improve housing supply".

PropQueries: "Leo Varadkar says there's no housing problem".

What any politician says and what they do can be very different and very often the complete opposite. Leo was the government leader when Connor Skehan was appointed Head advisor on housing policy. Connor believes there is no housing crisis and housing units are investment products

I don't believe you are naive to to be unaware of that

DataDude

Eclectic Econometrics wrote: »

I have read a lot about price increases at the bottom (200-300k) and middle (450-600k) of the market due to bidding wars but from what I have seen at the upper (1m+) and top end (8 fig net worth individuals type houses) my anecdotal impression, from looking at listed prices and final sales prices, is that there is downward negotiation taking place. Not much, but when you knock 5-7% off 1.5 it is still a decent chunk of change.

This house however... I still can't post links, Google "5 Rocky Valley Crescent, Kilmacanogue, Co. Wicklow"..... was first listed for €900,000 and, 2 months later, is now being touted for 1.2. Is anyone buying, or just watching prices, around the €1m mark and have you also seen increases?

With regards to the house itself, I personally think you are better off paying a couple of hundred grand more and living in a more private house in Rathmichael and not have your neighbour directly opposite. I think where there is a discrepancy in house prices in Ireland, as compared to London, is what you get for your money in terms of convenience. Someone touched on something similar (geographical discrepancy) earlier but talked about England/UK as a whole. One day I will formulate exactly what I am talking about, with proper examples, when I have more time.

Not 8 figure net worth individuals...but we've been looking in the €1.0 - €1.3m range for last 18 months. 2019 and 2020 it was fairly standard that you'd knock 10% of any asking price in your head as a given- nothing was making asking. 2021 there's still a number being negotiated down but not to the same extent. A lot go above also (but usually ones that were underpriced to begin with). Definitely a stronger market than 2019-2020, but not the same mania that you hear about in lower prices.

We half considered that one in Rocky Valley for a bit when it was at €900 (up for ages). The increase to €1.2m is absolutely bizarre and will only make anywhere near that if they find two absolute fools to bid against each other. The far bigger house next door, with a south facing garden (vs north) went for €995k early last year. It's worth at least €150k more than number 5, so if someone is paying €1.2m for 5 they're basically putting annual inflation at about 30-40%.
https://photos-a.propertyimages.ie/media/9/0/7/4327709/40fa8731-c926-4188-b1d6-eaefd0fd67bc.pdf

Mad to think they were going for €1.5m - €1.8m back in the day.
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/receiver-cuts-price-of-wicklow-homes-by-over-half-1.739893

awec

DataDude wrote: »

Not 8 figure net worth individuals...but we've been looking in the €1.0 - €1.3m range for last 18 months. 2019 and 2020 it was fairly standard that you'd knock 10% of any asking price in your head as a given- nothing was making asking. 2021 there's still a number being negotiated down but not to the same extent. A lot go above also (but usually ones that were underpriced to begin with). Definitely a stronger market than 2019-2020, but not the same mania that you hear about in lower prices.

We half considered that one in Rocky Valley for a bit when it was at €900 (up for ages). The increase to €1.2m is absolutely bizarre and will only make anywhere near that if they find two absolute fools to bid against each other. The far bigger house next door, with a south facing garden (vs north) went for €995k early last year. It's worth at least €150k more than number 5, so if someone is paying €1.2m for 5 they're basically putting annual inflation at about 30-40%.
https://photos-a.propertyimages.ie/media/9/0/7/4327709/40fa8731-c926-4188-b1d6-eaefd0fd67bc.pdf

Mad to think they were going for €1.5m - €1.8m back in the day.
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/receiver-cuts-price-of-wicklow-homes-by-over-half-1.739893

That #6 is way better.

Kitchen layout is good.

Cyrus

awec wrote: »

That #6 is way better.

Kitchen layout is good.

thats the one the other poster linked that the interior designer owned, it shows to be fair.

cnocbui

Marius34 wrote: »

I don't think that's precise. The only apartment building, completed in 2019, I'm aware of is Capital Dock. I think landlord Kennedy Wilson was part of the development, before completion.
Where there any other big apartment blocks completion in 2019?

190 units is not 95% of 3,644, in fact, I'd say it's probably not even close.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/just-8-000-houses-built-last-year-offered-for-sale-on-open-market-says-cif-1.4177876

L1011

timmyntc wrote: »

Can they build apartments with zero car parking spots? (or close to zero)

Its definitely not or everyone but plenty of people would be happy to forgo the parking space or the car entirely

Yes, in urban locations zero space is totally normal and in slightly further out locations, if there's decent public transit, zero can be allowed. One space per 4 apartments seems to be what is expected in those cases (which is a lot less than the 1.25 spaces per apartment of old)

https://www.opr.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/2018-Design-Standards-for-New-Apartments-1.pdf


Some SDZs are stuck with antiquated requirements on parking (and height) until they expire though.

>80% of households in some areas of or near Dublin city centre didn't have a car at the last census. Near where I work, many apartment owners have leased spaces out to businesses and in some cases, the original spaces were not all bought at all; and entire blocks were leased out - my employer has 20 in the basement of a nearby apartment leased off the management company.

Bass Reeves

awec wrote: »

I think that's a bit out of touch.

Not many people in their 30s today would have been in a position to buy in the early 10s.

They would have been if they were willing to buy 30-80k apartments. A lot were basically the price of a car over 20 years as opposed to
3-4 years. Neighbour had a daughter just out of college in Dublin in 2014 I think. He was up visiting one day where she was renting. He saw a house for sale accross the road and asked how much was the asking. 150k he told her he would give here the deposit. She would not entertain it as she was going travelling. That never happened the house accross the road was making 250 k 12 months later.

Eclectic Econometrics

Cyrus wrote: »

you are assuming someone spending 1.2m could goto 1.5m easily, its not normally the case to be honest.

regardless that place looks like awful value, i wouldnt pay 1.2m to live in kilmacanogue under any circumstances but certainly for that house.

what i have seen in the market for 1m+ houses, if they are walk in in a desirable location they are selling quickly and generally over asking, if they arent they are hanging around.

the 3m+ properties are generally still a slow sell barring something exceptional (for example cnoc aluinn on coliemore road sold quickly at 3.5m)

I agree that an additional 300k could well be a stretch for some and an impossibility for a great deal more.

Go to Youtube and search for "Westwicke, Quarry Road, Rathmichael, Dublin 18" the house in the video sold for €1.5 this year. To me, and I realise that property taste is a personal thing, what you get for the additional €300k is ridiculous.

Marius34

cnocbui wrote: »

190 units is not 95% of 3,644, in fact, I'd say it's probably not even close.

I'm not the one, who said it's 95%. Opposite, 95% of bought apartments without funding is very likely false information.

cnocbui

Marius34 wrote: »

I'm not the one, who said it's 95%. Opposite, 95% of bought apartments without funding is very likely false information.

False information from the Construction Industry Federation - so poorly regarded that newspapers are quoting them, along with ministers in the Dail? You are flogging a dead horse.

DataDude

Eclectic Econometrics wrote: »

I agree that an additional 300k could well be a stretch for some and an impossibility for a great deal more.

Go to Youtube and search for "Westwicke, Quarry Road, Rathmichael, Dublin 18" the house in the video sold for €1.5 this year. To me, and I realise that property taste is a personal thing, what you get for the additional €300k is ridiculous.

That's a fabulous house. There's definitely a massive jump in quality if you can stretch to €1.5m+, I guess you're really into small numbers of people able to compete at that threshold.

I've always noticed that Rathmichael gives incredible bang for your buck. Absolutely 0 desire to live there though. Basically Kilmac with a Dublin address and more expensive houses. Wrong side of N11, nothing there, awkward to get anywhere from...anyone disagree and think it's worth considering?

Edit - just realised you could replace Rathmichael with Foxrock above and it would still hold true...and that seems to remain fairly popular!

Cyrus

DataDude wrote: »

That's a fabulous house. There's definitely a massive jump in quality if you can stretch to €1.5m+, I guess you're really into small numbers of people able to compete at that threshold.

I've always noticed that Rathmichael gives incredible bang for your buck. Absolutely 0 desire to live there though. Basically Kilmac with a Dublin address and more expensive houses. Wrong side of N11, nothing there, awkward to get anywhere from...anyone disagree and think it's worth considering?

anyone i know that lives there seem to spend a lot of time in killiney / dalkey. Also i agree thats a proper house. Although im sure someone with 1.5m would say if only i had 2m id get exactly what it want

that said its not that far from lots of nice places, but i think thats all it really has going for it. We never considered it.

Marius34

cnocbui wrote: »

False information from the Construction Industry Federation - so poorly regarded that newspapers are quoting them, along with ministers in the Dail? You are flogging a dead horse.

I don't have access to your link, it just not unusual that media gets something wrong. Who speaks about funding CIF, or media reporter? Can you share CIF quotation

genericgoon

cnocbui wrote: »

The Irish tax take from property taxes already exceeds the OECD average.

First the data does not agree with you regarding recurring property taxes (i.e. LPT). See here: https://doi.org/10.1787/888934079402. I assume you are referring to the OECD report on total property tax take which includes non-recurring sources such as stamp duty and inheritance taxes.

Secondly, most of what is said above would be true even if LPT were left at current levels but exemptions/credits applied by the same mechanism.

cnocbui

genericgoon wrote: »

First the data does not agree with you regarding recurring property taxes (i.e. LPT). See here: https://doi.org/10.1787/888934079402. I assume you are referring to the OECD report on total property tax take which includes non-recurring sources such as stamp duty and inheritance taxes.

Secondly, most of what is said above would be true even if LPT were left at current levels but exemptions/credits applied by the same mechanism.

I was referring to this: https://taxfoundation.org/country/ireland

cnocbui

Marius34 wrote: »

I don't have access to your link, it just not unusual that media gets something wrong. Who speaks about funding CIF, or media reporter? Can you share CIF quotation

Just 8,000 houses built last year offered for sale on open market, says CIF
Investment funds bought 95% of 3,644 apartments completed last year

Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 05:08
Barry O'Halloran
...
Only about 8,000 of the 21,000 new homes built in the Republic last year were offered for sale on the open market, according to the Construction Industry Federation.

The federation, which represents most builders, says that the State acquired at least 4,400 new homes for social housing, while investment funds bought 95 per cent of the 3,644 apartments completed here last year.

As a consequence, the federation says that many people seeking to buy their first home “continued to find themselves locked out of the market”.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/just-8-000-houses-built-last-year-offered-for-sale-on-open-market-says-cif-1.4177876

genericgoon

cnocbui wrote: »

I was referring to this: https://taxfoundation.org/country/ireland

Based on the table provided of what qualifies as a "property tax" then it would seem the comparison on that site is indeed based on a combination of recurring (e.g. LPT) and non-recurring (e.g. inheritance) taxes. My focus was on recurring taxation which is slightly below average as per the OECD 2020 report on Ireland.

awec

DataDude wrote: »

That's a fabulous house. There's definitely a massive jump in quality if you can stretch to €1.5m+, I guess you're really into small numbers of people able to compete at that threshold.

I've always noticed that Rathmichael gives incredible bang for your buck. Absolutely 0 desire to live there though. Basically Kilmac with a Dublin address and more expensive houses. Wrong side of N11, nothing there, awkward to get anywhere from...anyone disagree and think it's worth considering?

Edit - just realised you could replace Rathmichael with Foxrock above and it would still hold true...and that seems to remain fairly popular!

I never understood why Foxrock was so popular. There is nothing in it!

Cyrus

Ordinary house in an extraordinary location

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/uninterrupted-sea-views-in-dalkey-for-2-85m-1.4565420?localLinksEnabled=false&utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Gang+warns+it+will+publish+HSE+data+unless+ransom+paid+by+Monday+-+report&utm_campaign=lunchtime_latest_digest

Cyrus

awec wrote: »

I never understood why Foxrock was so popular. There is nothing in it!

totally agree, as someone else once said the main thing it has is proximity to other rich people

Marius34

cnocbui wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/just-8-000-houses-built-last-year-offered-for-sale-on-open-market-says-cif-1.4177876

doesn't say anything about funding. Many of them may well be funded, and bought the whole project.