Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

Marius34

Timing belt wrote: »

I don’t think an economic crisis would cause a massive drop in prices unless we saw emigration.. even if someone ends up unemployed and unable to pay their mortgage they won’t be kicked out of the house so we wouldn’t see a fire sale that would crash the housing market. The only way I would see a fire sale is if enough people emigrated and sold their house.

Even with the construction of new builds we always look at no of units built but are these the right type in the right area...probably not as a lot of the units are flats for the rental market or houses in commuter towns whilst investors and the council sit on massive land banks and do nothing with them. Until we start using these assets there will continue to be a shortage. If the councils use this land for social/affordable housing then it would free up rentals and reduce the HAP bill.

The reason why I say high unemployment would possibly result in price drop, is due to decrease in real demands, including higher emigration, and lower immigration.

PropQueries

Timing belt wrote: »

I don’t think an economic crisis would cause a massive drop in prices unless we saw emigration.. even if someone ends up unemployed and unable to pay their mortgage they won’t be kicked out of the house so we wouldn’t see a fire sale that would crash the housing market. The only way I would see a fire sale is if enough people emigrated and sold their house.

Even with the construction of new builds we always look at no of units built but are these the right type in the right area...probably not as a lot of the units are flats for the rental market or houses in commuter towns whilst investors and the council sit on massive land banks and do nothing with them. Until we start using these assets there will continue to be a shortage. If the councils use this land for social/affordable housing then it would free up rentals and reduce the HAP bill.

I think you’re forgetting that we’re not like most other EU countries in that we really don’t have a domestic market and are completely reliant on continued FDI and immigration to support our housing market.

Both are under significant threat at the moment. FDI from the obvious and our future immigration from initiatives like the Three Seas Initiative in Eastern Europe.

According to Bloomberg:

“The most important geopolitical project you’ve never heard of is called the Three Seas Initiative. It’s a joint endeavor by 12 eastern members of the European Union to update the physical and digital links between the Baltic, Adriatic and Black Seas.”

It’s near enough their equivalent of Biden’s infrastructure plan in the states and that’s where the future of Europe is heading IMO

We had 30 years of luck. We blew it IMO

Link to article on Bloomberg here and well worth a read: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-05-19/europe-can-fend-off-china-and-russia-via-three-seas-initiative

Timing belt

PropQueries wrote: »

I think you’re forgetting that we’re not like most other EU countries in that we really don’t have a domestic market and are completely reliant on continued FDI and immigration to support our housing market.

Both are under significant threat at the moment. FDI from the obvious and our future immigration from initiatives like the Three Seas Initiative in Eastern Europe.

According to Bloomberg:

“The most important geopolitical project you’ve never heard of is called the Three Seas Initiative. It’s a joint endeavor by 12 eastern members of the European Union to update the physical and digital links between the Baltic, Adriatic and Black Seas.”

It’s near enough their equivalent of Biden’s infrastructure plan in the states and that’s where the future of Europe is heading IMO

We had 30 years of luck. We blew it IMO

Link to article on Bloomberg here and well worth a read: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-05-19/europe-can-fend-off-china-and-russia-via-three-seas-initiative

This is about building infrastructure in countries with poor infrastructure...just like Europe did in Ireland years ago....I don’t think this changes much as these countries will still have emigration because wages are low and that won’t change overnight. Only a portion of our immigration comes from these countries anyway.

Bass Reeves

Timing belt wrote: »

This is about building infrastructure in countries with poor infrastructure...just like Europe did in Ireland years ago....I don’t think this changes much as these countries will still have emigration because wages are low and that won’t change overnight. Only a portion of our immigration comes from these countries anyway.

That never stops Prop's' from adding 2+2 and getting 3, 5, 6 or any other answer he requires

PropQueries

According to The Journal:

"A vacant property tax for investment fund landlords who own a large number of apartments that are lying empty is under serious consideration, it is understood. Finance Minister Paschal Donohoe has been asked to consider whether a multiple of the Local Property Tax for apartments that are left vacant could be used to deter institutional landlords from leaving properties lying idle, senior sources confirmed."

There's plenty of low hanging fruit to pick at to help resolve the housing issue cheaply and quickly and this one would be an easy win IMO.

Link to article in The Journal here: https://www.thejournal.ie/vacant-property-tax-3-5441551-May2021/

yagan

Without clear optics beyond the once every five year census we don't have even a clue how many empties there are.

There was a ghost estate near me in 2006 two years before the bust was official, supply having long surpassed demand by years. As long as investment funds keep the cement mixers turning the empties will pile up again, until they twig that the existing units aren't meeting their projected yield.

A rental price register that also shows the unlet would give consumers and providers more stability in the long run.

handlemaster

PropQueries wrote: »

According to The Journal:

"A vacant property tax for investment fund landlords who own a large number of apartments that are lying empty is under serious consideration, it is understood. Finance Minister Paschal Donohoe has been asked to consider whether a multiple of the Local Property Tax for apartments that are left vacant could be used to deter institutional landlords from leaving properties lying idle, senior sources confirmed."

There's plenty of low hanging fruit to pick at to help resolve the housing issue cheaply and quickly and this one would be an easy win IMO.

Link to article in The Journal here: https://www.thejournal.ie/vacant-property-tax-3-5441551-May2021/

What you are proposing is more micro managing of a macro problem. Government have messed the property market up one mad law to to please the popular vote after another.

Wanderer78

handlemaster wrote:

What you are proposing is more micro managing of a macro problem. Government have messed the property market up one mad law to to please the popular vote after another.

Our property mess is due to both state failure and the fire sectors, its also not just an Irish problem

PropQueries

handlemaster wrote: »

What you are proposing is more micro managing of a macro problem. Government have messed the property market up one mad law to to please the popular vote after another.

I'm not proposing it, the state is. But. it's already implemented in many countries around the world from Washington D.C. (5% vacant tax, 10% derelict tax) to Denmark where a property owner is fined for not informing the state that their property is vacant and why.

As another poster said previously, it's also good for discovery purposes i.e. actually knowing what property assets we have and what they're currently being used for.

Every corner shop does a regular stock take. It's about time the state did a similar and regular audit of our property market IMO.

wassie

Whilst not the same, Canadian Govt looks soon to introduce a 1% annual tax on non-resident, non-Canadian owned residential properties that are vacant or is considered underused.

The new tax would kick in on January 1, 2022, and is expected to rake in around $700 million in the first four years, according to the budget documents. The money earned from the tax will go towards affordable housing investments.

Although I agree with handlemasters sentiments, this sort of stuff is just tinkering around the edges for political gain in response to housing shortages in Vancouver and Toronto.

Wanderer78

PropQueries wrote:

Every corner shop does a regular stock take. It's about time the state did a similar and regular audit of our property market IMO.

Folks such as ronan lyons have been trying to do such things for years, I think he has got some data on it

PropQueries

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Folks such as ronan lyons have been trying to do such things for years, I think he has got some data on it

It is madness that this has to be even debated. The state appears more interested in finding out which properties have a TV licence or not than actually finding out what housing stock we truly have and what it's being used for.

We either have a housing crisis because of a genuine housing shortage or we have a housing crisis because of other factors. I'd like to know which one it is and it's easily completed. All they have to do is direct each council to perform a property stock take in their local area and get back with the preliminary results by the end of the month IMO

PropQueries

wassie wrote: »

Whilst not the same, Canadian Govt looks soon to introduce a 1% annual tax on non-resident, non-Canadian owned residential properties that are vacant or is considered underused.



Although I agree with handlemasters sentiments, this sort of stuff is just tinkering around the edges for political gain in response to housing shortages in Vancouver and Toronto.

I think Dermot Desmond's vacant tax idea is the best so far for the implementation of such a tax or, as you said, it's just tinkering around the edges and of little use:

"All empty apartments should be deemed to be rented out at 50% of the asking rent and tax should be chargeable based on that deemed income. This would provide a strong incentive to adjust rents to market clearing levels rather speculative hoarding."

Wanderer78

PropQueries wrote:

We either have a housing crisis because of a genuine housing shortage or we have a housing crisis because of other factors. I'd like to know which one it is and it's easily completed. All they have to do is direct each council to perform a property stock take in their local area and get back with the preliminary results by the end of the month IMO

Our housing crisis is due to many different and complex reasons, but its incredibly disturbing to watch government after government fail to get even the fundamentals right, to try get a handle on it, gathering as much accurate data is a critical first step, and they can't even do that, that's just disturbing.

Lyons and Co have been writing about our serious lack of supply, particularly in the Dublin region, since 08, but they have also been writing about vacancy in the region, and conducting studies of their own, to try create this data. They have also been explaining in detail, in the press and at official political meetings, how to address all of these issues, and nothing has come from them, now that's just disturbing. And you're right, this isn't rocket science!

Cal4567

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/social-housing-providers-not-squeezing-out-buyers-1.4570913

The housing bodies coming out and fighting their corner. Just listening to family and friends who are in the market at the moment, its more local authorities buying one off houses that's competing with them, than these housing bodies. For the value end of the market second hand properties anyhow.

Villa05

timmyntc wrote:

The reason being nobody wants to risk buying an apartment and then moving up the ladder later in life because they might get stung like those who bought in the last boom

If as the industry tells us apartments are more expensive to build than houses then houses are the bottom of the ladder or we have designed a different ladder/slide

Apartments use less land (despite being told land is the highest cost input) regulations and controls have been significantly reduced over the last decade
Some blame greenfell towers incident, however that was a disaster whose main cause was
Dodgy fridge since recalled.

Cladding applied to the external structure partly because the gentrified neighbours didn't like the look of it.

Apparent instructions for residents to stay in their flats during the blaze

Do we place our thrust in the industry to tell us what the cost of an apartment is. This very same industry that put known highly flammable cladding around a tower building

Marius34 wrote:

I mentioned before, personally I don't think we will ever return to 2020 prices, because I don't think we are heading to any of those 2 scenarios in near term.

Do you think there is any interest rate risk or stagflation?

PropQueries wrote:

It is madness that this has to be even debated. The state appears more interested in finding out which properties have a TV licence or not than actually finding out what housing stock we truly have and what it's being used for.

Do the ESB still have a charge for under used accounts, would be a good place to start with that data

We also have over 150k holiday homes, many of these are individually owned. Could many of these be brought back into mainstream use as a result of WFH

handlemaster

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Our property mess is due to both state failure and the fire sectors, its also not just an Irish problem

whats the fire sectors ?

timmyntc

wassie wrote: »

In taking a long term horizon of 10 years, I would suggest that if Ireland experiences sustained positive population growth driven primarily by immigration, then yes its conceivable that house prices over the long term increase.

Prices cant increase indefinitely because even immigrants, though they may add to demand, they can only borrow 3.5x joint salary. We are quickly reaching (have reached) the ceiling of affordability for large portions of the population in this country. Only thing that can push prices up any more is larger and larger deposits, but given the times it takes to save its more likely that people will go for a mortgage when they hit X amount of deposit saved, rather than holding off for longer and longer.

There is a price ceiling in place due to central bank rules - so factors like population growth wont go much beyond that. Institutional money is the outlier here.

Browney7

Cal4567 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/social-housing-providers-not-squeezing-out-buyers-1.4570913

The housing bodies coming out and fighting their corner. Just listening to family and friends who are in the market at the moment, its more local authorities buying one off houses that's competing with them, than these housing bodies. For the value end of the market second hand properties anyhow.

I'd be curious as to the data behind this stat:

"Donal McManus, chief executive of the Irish Council for Social Housing said long-term leasing accounted for about 5-10 per cent of AHB housing".

If they had no leasing at the start of 2019 for example and now all of a sudden 10% of the stock they have is leased, then their recent lease acquisitions will of course distort market dynamics.

Mic 1972

derekgine3 wrote: »

I never said i had proof, what a lame response and cliche question to chalk it off.


To expect property prices to continually rise for what would be 15-20 years if no dips occurred in the midst of a global pandemic of which we are yet to see the real economic effects of covid (thanks to government support payments) is completely asinine.


Prices will drop within the next 5 years, it would be a few % or a huge crash. A correction will be due once the true economic impact of covid is felt when the government sedation is removed from the equation.

Another option is that the money pumped into the economy on a global scale will generate controlled inflation over a period of time which will balance out the house prices, this would prevent economy collapse

combat14

very depressing report from ESRI today suggesting massive tax rises to fund public services etc, keep corporation tax at 12.5% and plug over-reliance on corporate tax receipts

they point out 90% of wealth here is in property and that property taxes havent gone up since 2014 - increased rates could be used to drop property inflation

ESRI also itching to ramp up income tax, prsi and usc as most equitable way to drive up taxes

taxes here for anyone in the middle income bracket are already at nose bleed rates - are they trying to wipe out any form of initiative in the country to work harder - whats the point!?

every kind of tax conceivable is advocated in the report from increasing VAT to 24%, upping inheritance taxes, taxing pension lump sums, the list goes on and on is being pushed for to pay back massive pamdemic borrowing and pay for FF/FG commitments to spend more

house buyers need to be very aware of this when budgeting for the mortage they can afford to buy, coupled with rising interest rates there are huge risks to the property market on the horizon

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/tax/tax-hikes-needed-across-the-board-to-pay-for-pandemic-spending-esri-40451346.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0520/1222952-esri-tax/

Marius34

Villa05 wrote: »

Do you think there is any interest rate risk or stagflation?

I expect recovery to moderate 1%-3% annual inflation in the medium term.
I'm not sure what you mean by interest rate risk. It may go up, or stay stable in medium term, I don't see much risk here in sense of Property price.

fliball123

combat14 wrote: »

very depressing report from ESRI today suggesting massive tax rises to fund public services etc, keep corporation tax at 12.5% and plug over-reliance on corporate tax receipts

they point out 90% of wealth here is in property and that property taxes havent gone up since 2014

ESRI also itching to ramp up income tax, prsi and usc as most equitable way to drive up taxes

taxes here for anyone in the middle income bracket are already at nose bleed rates - are they trying to wipe out any form of initiative in the country to work harder - whats the point!?

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0520/1222952-esri-tax/

Isn't it sad that once again we have the rich and poor suckling at the teeth and its the middle that will be squeezed more

the left calling for free housing
the left calling for handouts everywhere
The right wanting their 12.5% tax kept in place
The politicians giving themselves and the rest of the PS 3 payrises

All while we are 240 in debt and borrowing 17billion
paying over 21 Billion in ps pay and pensions
paying over 23 Billion in welfare
and the solution they come up with is tax more no cuts no matter how much fat there is there to take away.

If they put up the tax rate higher than the punitive rate I am already paying I can do my job from elsewhere and reckon I could be heading for the south of France or to the Algarve. How can they be looking for more from this cohort who are paying for almost everything and get very little for this in return.

wassie

timmyntc wrote: »

Prices cant increase indefinitely because even immigrants, though they may add to demand, they can only borrow 3.5x joint salary. We are quickly reaching (have reached) the ceiling of affordability for large portions of the population in this country. Only thing that can push prices up any more is larger and larger deposits, but given the times it takes to save its more likely that people will go for a mortgage when they hit X amount of deposit saved, rather than holding off for longer and longer.

There is a price ceiling in place due to central bank rules - so factors like population growth wont go much beyond that. Institutional money is the outlier here.

So if we experience inflation over this time period, wages typically would increase. Is it not reasonable to then assume that ceiling increases proportionately.
Afterall, growth is anything above 0%.

combat14

fliball123 wrote: »

Isn't it sad that once again we have the rich and poor suckling at the teeth and its the middle that will be squeezed more

the left calling for free housing
the left calling for handouts everywhere
The right wanting their 12.5% tax kept in place
The politicians giving themselves and the rest of the PS 3 payrises

All while we are 240 in debt and borrowing 17billion
paying over 21 Billion in ps pay and pensions
paying over 23 Billion in welfare
and the solution they come up with is tax more no cuts no matter how much fat there is there to take away.

If they put up the tax rate higher than the punitive rate I am already paying I can do my job from elsewhere and reckon I could be heading for the south of France or to the Algarve. How can they be looking for more from this cohort who are paying for almost everything and get very little for this in return.

perhaps the solution is to ramp up taxes on those with more than 2 properties including the vulture cuckoo funds

fliball123

combat14 wrote: »

perhaps the solution is to ramp up taxes on those with more than 2 properties including the vulture cuckoo funds

I think our 12.5% needs to be upped as well as cookoos paying not only paying 10% stamp on the way in but also the 12.5% on all money before expenses are paid out. But the spend side here needs to be looked at we cant continue paying champagne and caviar rates for welfare and ps pay and pensions

tobsey

yagan wrote: »

Without clear optics beyond the once every five year census we don't have even a clue how many empties there are.

There was a ghost estate near me in 2006 two years before the bust was official, supply having long surpassed demand by years. As long as investment funds keep the cement mixers turning the empties will pile up again, until they twig that the existing units aren't meeting their projected yield.

A rental price register that also shows the unlet would give consumers and providers more stability in the long run.

Number of new homes built in Ireland per year:

2004: 77k
2005: 77k
2006: 92k
2007: 78k
2008: 48k

2017: 14k
2018: 18k
2019: 22k
2020: 21k

The cement trucks have barely been ticking over for a decade. Those figures wouldn't give any credit to the claim that we'll have more ghost estates any time soon.

combat14

fliball123 wrote: »

I think our 12.5% needs to be upped as well as cookoos paying not only paying 10% stamp on the way in but also the 12.5% on all money before expenses are paid out. But the spend side here needs to be looked at we cant continue paying champagne and caviar rates for welfare and ps pay and pensions

welfare rates are far too generous here throw in a free house for life and people celebrating 40 years on the dole it is an absolute joke - and we the tax payer are the joke

optogirl

combat14 wrote: »

welfare rates are far too generous here throw in a free house for life and people celebrating 40 years on the dole it is an absolute joke - and we the tax payer are the joke

ah lads. The whole free house thing is an absolute myth. Let me guess, emigrants are being handed brand new cars & buggies at the airport as well

PropQueries

fliball123 wrote: »

Isn't it sad that once again we have the rich and poor suckling at the teeth and its the middle that will be squeezed more

the left calling for free housing
the left calling for handouts everywhere
The right wanting their 12.5% tax kept in place
The politicians giving themselves and the rest of the PS 3 payrises

All while we are 240 in debt and borrowing 17billion
paying over 21 Billion in ps pay and pensions
paying over 23 Billion in welfare
and the solution they come up with is tax more no cuts no matter how much fat there is there to take away.

If they put up the tax rate higher than the punitive rate I am already paying I can do my job from elsewhere and reckon I could be heading for the south of France or to the Algarve. How can they be looking for more from this cohort who are paying for almost everything and get very little for this in return.

You double counted there. The €21 Billion in welfare spend for 2019 included pensions of c. €8 Billion as far as I know. Another c. €8 Billion had nothing to do with welfare as the layman understands it. The remainder of the "welfare" spend included items like family income support, which the Minister for Foreign Affairs recently stated:

"Many civil servants in my department are on family income top-up like members of Defence Forces".

The PUP payments for 2020/2021 were primarily paid for by raiding the c. €5 Billion surplus in the PRSI fund pre-covid.

The current plans to increase taxes on everything from income to property have little to nothing to do what people on welfare receive in this country. They also have little to do with the Covid borrowings either. It's more to do with the mismanagement of all that unforeseen corporation tax revenue we received over the past several years IMO

People on welfare also never asked the state to be paying up to c, €3,000 per month for an apartment. The state's decision to pay such amounts has indeed resulted in the current "market" price of my home increasing in value, but now it looks like I'm going to be paying for that even though I never cashed in any of the "market" value.

Link to the the breakdown of the welfare spend 2019 here: https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/socialprotection/2019/

Link to Simon Coveney statement here: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/coveney-many-civil-servants-in-my-department-are-on-family-income-top-up-like-members-of-defence-forces-39601376.html

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

Every corner shop does a regular stock take. It's about time the state did a similar and regular audit of our property market IMO.

again your ability to conflate two entirely seperate things is almost admirable.

timmyntc

wassie wrote: »

So if we experience inflation over this time period, wages typically would increase. Is it not reasonable to then assume that ceiling increases proportionately.
Afterall, growth is anything above 0%.

IF, big if, we experience inflation & wage inflation.

We havent seen wage inflation in quite some time

Mad_maxx

PropQueries wrote: »

You double counted there. The €21 Billion in welfare spend for 2019 included pensions of c. €8 Billion as far as I know. Another c. €8 Billion had nothing to do with welfare as the layman understands it. The remainder of the "welfare" spend included items like family income support, which the Minister for Foreign Affairs recently stated:

"Many civil servants in my department are on family income top-up like members of Defence Forces".

The PUP payments for 2020/2021 were primarily paid for by raiding the c. €5 Billion surplus in the PRSI fund pre-covid.

The current plans to increase taxes on everything from income to property have little to nothing to do what people on welfare receive in this country. They also have little to do with the Covid borrowings either. It's more to do with the mismanagement of all that unforeseen corporation tax revenue we received over the past several years IMO

People on welfare also never asked the state to be paying up to c, €3,000 per month for an apartment. The state's decision to pay such amounts has indeed resulted in the current "market" price of my home increasing in value, but now it looks like I'm going to be paying for that even though I never cashed in any of the "market" value.

Link to the the breakdown of the welfare spend 2019 here: https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/socialprotection/2019/

Link to Simon Coveney statement here: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/coveney-many-civil-servants-in-my-department-are-on-family-income-top-up-like-members-of-defence-forces-39601376.html

A minimum 10% of each new development being reserved for social housing is a left wing policy, it was the left who lobbied for it ,therefore the 3k per month from the council to a fund for people being housed by the state

People on welfare don't write policy but they vote for parties who espouse the above

wassie

combat14 wrote: »

welfare rates are far too generous here throw in a free house for life and people celebrating 40 years on the dole it is an absolute joke - and we the tax payer are the joke

Tell that to the working families stuck in emergency accommodation.

fliball123

PropQueries wrote: »

You double counted there. The €21 Billion in welfare spend for 2019 included pensions of c. €8 Billion as far as I know. Another c. €8 Billion had nothing to do with welfare as the layman understands it. The remainder of the "welfare" spend included items like family income support, which the Minister for Foreign Affairs recently stated:

"Many civil servants in my department are on family income top-up like members of Defence Forces".

The PUP payments for 2020/2021 were primarily paid for by raiding the c. €5 Billion surplus in the PRSI fund pre-covid.

The current plans to increase taxes on everything from income to property have little to nothing to do what people on welfare receive in this country. They also have little to do with the Covid borrowings either. It's more to do with the mismanagement of all that unforeseen corporation tax revenue we received over the past several years IMO

People on welfare also never asked the state to be paying up to c, €3,000 per month for an apartment. The state's decision to pay such amounts has indeed resulted in the current "market" price of my home increasing in value, but now it looks like I'm going to be paying for that even though I never cashed in any of the "market" value.

Link to the the breakdown of the welfare spend 2019 here: https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/socialprotection/2019/

Link to Simon Coveney statement here: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/coveney-many-civil-servants-in-my-department-are-on-family-income-top-up-like-members-of-defence-forces-39601376.html

25.1 Billion bill for welfare 2021
https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/8f6a9-251bn-to-be-spent-on-social-welfare-in-2021/

public sector Pay bill (without pansions) in 2019 before a large recruitment drive and 3
payrises was 18.7Billion

https://www.gov.ie/en/policy-information/2b39fc-public-service-pay-policy/#dismantling-the-emergency-legislation

Wanderer78

handlemaster wrote: »

whats the fire sectors ?

its an economics term, it stands for finance, insurance, and real estate(F.I.R.E.), we ve all gone down this road of economic thinking, and its catastrophically failing globally, particularly in relation to property and land management, and of course their related markets, its a mess

Cal4567

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/dublin-bus-seeks-proposals-for-redevelopment-of-depots-1.4568484

Not sure if this has been discussed here. For all who know Dublin, these sites are significant state land holdings. It's looking at an urban concept where you have residential above commercial usage.

Wanderer78

Cal4567 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/dublin-bus-seeks-proposals-for-redevelopment-of-depots-1.4568484

Not sure if this has been discussed here. For all who know Dublin, these sites are significant state land holdings. It's looking at an urban concept where you have residential above commercial usage.

...again, lyons and co, have been advocating for these type of solutions for a long time now....

Cal4567

Cal4567 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/dublin-bus-seeks-proposals-for-redevelopment-of-depots-1.4568484

Not sure if this has been discussed here. For all who know Dublin, these sites are significant state land holdings. It's looking at an urban concept where you have residential above commercial usage.

This is a great idea, even places like Bus Aras should be used like this.
Great locations with lots of space.

Graham

Mod Note

derekgine3 thread banned. Do not post in this thread again.

L1011

fliball123 is taking some time off for a further breach of the ban on discussing immigration

optogirl

<MOD SNIP>

Villa05

combat14 wrote:

very depressing report from ESRI today suggesting massive tax rises to fund public services etc, keep corporation tax at 12.5% and plug over-reliance on corporate tax receipts

Do the ESRI do any reports on how the money currently raised could be spent more efficiently as this is the elephant in the room

tobsey wrote:

The cement trucks have barely been ticking over for a decade. Those figures wouldn't give any credit to the claim that we'll have more ghost estates any time soon.

Thanks for the numbers, kind of backs up some of props claims
If we were building more than double of what was required for 5 years prior to the crash and only building 60% of what was required after the crash should we be closer to equilibrium than what we are being told

combat14 wrote:

welfare rates are far too generous here throw in a free house for life and people celebrating 40 years on the dole it is an absolute joke - and we the tax payer are the joke

If we are entering 2k per month for social housing under long term leasing, the amount spent on housing is twice the rate paid in unemployment benefit

If we wanted to tackle SW spend, the area of focus should be on housing plus if additional tax is required something would have to be done about ever increasing rents so that
A they are taxed fairly
B those that are paying rents may be able to afford a small rate of tax increase

awec

Villa05 wrote: »

Do the ESRI do any reports on how the money currently raised could be spent more efficiently as this is the elephant in the room




Thanks for the numbers, kind of backs up some of props claims
If we were building more than double of what was required for 5 years prior to the crash and only building 60% of what was required after the crash should we be closer to equilibrium than what we are being told




If we are entering 2k per month for social housing under long term leasing, the amount spent on housing is twice the rate paid in unemployment benefit

If we wanted to tackle SW spend, the area of focus should be on housing plus if additional tax is required something would have to be done about ever increasing rents so that
A they are taxed fairly
B those that are paying rents may be able to afford a small rate of tax increase

You've lost me here, as I am not sure how you can make this sort of conclusion based on that data.

Cyrus

awec wrote: »

You've lost me here, as I am not sure how you can make this sort of conclusion based on that data.

if there is one thing posters in this thread have shown me, you can make any sort of conclusion you like from any data, just make sure you post the link.

Cal4567

bubblypop wrote: »

This is a great idea, even places like Bus Aras should be used like this.
Great locations with lots of space.

Despite all the negative stuff and challenges around property and how it is developed and funded, it is possible to make a good fist of it using some basic good urban planning ideas.

PropQueries

Cal4567 wrote: »

Despite all the negative stuff and challenges around property and how it is developed and funded, it is possible to make a good fist of it using some basic good urban planning ideas.

Last month the Irish Times reported that "Dublin Bus to examine developing its prime property sites". It's an excellent source of supply and many of their bus depots are in prime locations scattered throughout the city centre.

As their chief executive said:

"Dublin Bus has a substantial landbank in the capital, with operational depots on large sites in Ringsend, Donnybrook, Clontarf, Phibsborough, Summerhill (near Croke Park), and Conyngham Road (near the Phoenix Park). It also has a large garage in Harristown, at the back of Dublin Airport."

But instead of the state paying them, I think a landswap would be a much better use of the Government's resources instead of entering into a partnership or buying them outright which would be basically just another subsidy to the group. Either way, the government could fast track these sites and get them shovel ready by the end of this year if they truly wished IMO

And, these depots are just one example of the land that is there, all ready to go and mostly in prime and already residential areas with the infrastructure in place.

Link to Irish Times article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/dublin-bus-to-examine-developing-its-prime-property-sites-1.4500089

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

Last month the Irish Times reported that "Dublin Bus to examine developing its prime property sites". It's an excellent source of supply and many of their bus depots are in prime locations scattered throughout the city centre.

As their chief executive said:

"Dublin Bus has a substantial landbank in the capital, with operational depots on large sites in Ringsend, Donnybrook, Clontarf, Phibsborough, Summerhill (near Croke Park), and Conyngham Road (near the Phoenix Park). It also has a large garage in Harristown, at the back of Dublin Airport."

But instead of the state paying them, I think a landswap would be a much better use of the Government's resources instead of entering into a partnership or buying them outright which would be basically just another subsidy to the group. Either way, the government could fast track these sites and get them shovel ready by the end of this year if they truly wished IMO

And, these depots are just one example of the land that is there, all ready to go and mostly in prime and already residential areas with the infrastructure in place.

Link to Irish Times article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/dublin-bus-to-examine-developing-its-prime-property-sites-1.4500089

Has anyone argued that there is a land shortage?

Lmkrnr

A high mortgage with extra taxation. Sounds like a FFG sucide pact.

Wanderer78

Lmkrnr wrote: »

A high mortgage with extra taxation. Sounds like a FFG sucide pact.

ffg are screwed, and theyre doing it themselves, its clearly obvious that this will fail, spectacularly