Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

Ace2007

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

It's a stretch but I can see how it would work. However, is it ideal that even with those decent salaries and excellent savings we are telling people you can buy this basic houw éin Cabra? I don't think so, that level of working and saving versus the return is not something which would motivate people medium term. It only seems justified because the alternative with renting would mean paying 40% extra per month on the rent, but this is why we are in a crisis as opposed to needing to solve a less extreme housing problem.

But again why do you view cabra in that way? Would you have the same opinion if the same house for the same price was in Blackrock.

Areas change over time - Cabra/Finglas/Ballymun - these are the same areas as 25 years ago. It's like people prefer to complain about them, and be "force" to move to commute belt, then maybe buying a house in those areas.

Cyrus

AdamD wrote: »

I think you're missing the problem. That worker could be on 100k and still wouldn't be able to afford in the area he's talking about.

100k * 3.5 = 350k. He isnt paying any rent at the moment so should be able to save a min of 1k a month, 3 years saving he has 36k.

This is 400k so not very far off

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/1-obelisk-avenue-blackrock-co-dublin/4500485

Ace2007

Jmc25 wrote: »

Last year definitely. Not seeming so this year. I've seen a three bed terraced in Artane listed for 380k (a stretch on last year's prices but I could suck it up), with a bid of 475k. Granted, that's the most extreme example, but this is what's happening.

If you look at the property price register - there were two sold in the last 9 months around the 400k mark. the most recent sold was a 4 bedroom - fairly decently location i would say and nice area.

Ace2007

AdamD wrote: »

I think you're missing the problem. That worker could be on 100k and still wouldn't be able to afford in the area he's talking about.

But that's because he's looking at house worth 600k. Just because you grow up on an area doesn't mean you should be automatically be able to buy a house in that area.

Jmc25

Cyrus wrote: »

100k * 3.5 = 350k. He isnt paying any rent at the moment so should be able to save a min of 1k a month, 3 years saving he has 36k.

This is 400k so not very far off

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/1-obelisk-avenue-blackrock-co-dublin/4500485

In the case of a person on 100k living at home and saving 1k a month (probably could save double that in fairness without much hassle), yes they can buy that house, or a great many other houses - many of better value than a two bed in Blackrock.

It's the bigger picture though, I think the median wage is somewhere around a third of that and most people earning around 35-40k don't live at home and are paying hefty rents, making it difficult - though not always impossible - to save.

I know people myself who fit into the stereotype of earning decent salaries but saying they'll never afford a house because they can't be bothered saving. The vast majority of people don't fit into the category of just needing to be told how to budget/where to buy. There are real systemic issues.

MacronvFrugals

The council is trying to replenish previously sold stock in areas like Cabra/Finlglas etc which is driving prices up, add to that investors wanting to lease and its making bidding wars fairly tough at the minute

Jmc25

Ace2007 wrote: »

If you look at the property price register - there were two sold in the last 9 months around the 400k mark. the most recent sold was a 4 bedroom - fairly decently location i would say and nice area.

That's the problem - the ones hitting the PPR now were sale agreed probably around December, when prices were creeping up but we still hadn't reached the frenzy we're seeing now.

Even the CSO stats are still only showing relatively modest price increases as there's always a lag between sale agreed - sold - hitting the price register.

I think those stats will show fairly hefty price increases across the board by late summer.

I really must stress that while I wasn't exactly fine with last year's prices, I was willing and able to fork out and buy in these locations at those prices.

Cyrus

Jmc25 wrote: »

In the case of a person on 100k living at home and saving 1k a month (probably could save double that in fairness without much hassle), yes they can buy that house, or a great many other houses - many of better value than a two bed in Blackrock.

It's the bigger picture though, I think the median wage is somewhere around a third of that and most people earning around 35-40k don't live at home and are paying hefty rents, making it difficult - though not always impossible - to save.

I know people myself who fit into the stereotype of earning decent salaries but saying they'll never afford a house because they can't be bothered saving. The vast majority of people don't fit into the category of just needing to be told how to budget/where to buy. There are real systemic issues.

sure, thats a different problem and not one that my post was directed at.

people on the median wage will not be able to buy in Dublin as a singelton but a couple will.

AlmightyCushion

Guys, the person in question was just giving an example of house prices in the area. Going by the article he doesn't seem to think he should be able to afford a house there on his current income and was just using it as an example of how hopeless his situation is. He doesn't even want to buy and would prefer to rent long term at an affordable price. Regardless of all that, he does make some valid points. You're all getting caught up on one line said by one person in the article.

cnocbui

AdamD wrote: »

I think you're missing the problem. That worker could be on 100k and still wouldn't be able to afford in the area he's talking about.

Then he should have studied medicine or IT and specialised in network security. Dare I suggest he go and live somewhere he can afford?

This one house in a lifetime thing is bizarre. Get on the ladder, be frugal, work on improving your income and then one day you might be able to afford Blackrock.

The market is competitive. If there are 100,000 people with six figure incomes wanting to live in Blackrock, and there are 85,000 houses available, recent graduates on €30 K are out of luck. Given the rate of population increase from 2014 to 2021 is possibly adding 21,000 people to Dublin each year, what other way can property prices in the most desirable locations go than up?

C14N

combat14 wrote: »

its time voters wake ff/fg up - something has to change on housing policy super fast - time the govt wake up and smell the coffee

I actually think doing things "fast" is exactly the wrong idea. Every solution to housing problems (help-to-buy scheme, rent control, HAP, quickly shortening housing lists, tax exemptions for REITs) seems to be a poorly thought-out bandaid that solves some immediate problem but doesn't account for the side effects that will be faced for years to come. Housing is just a slow problem to solve and the solutions people come up with should be thought of in terms of 5-10 years, not 1 year.

Honestly, if I had a notion that the housing market would actually be completely fine 5 years from now, I'd probably be quite happy to stay renting in the meantime and buy then, but I don't.

combat14 wrote: »

an 8% rent hike during a housing crisis and global pandemic with high unemployment .. lovely, will go down like a lead balloon at the moment

Pandemic is a bit of an odd one though. It hasn't affected everyone equally at all. Some, as you say, lost jobs or are on far lower hours or PUP, and are absolutely struggling. Plenty of others carried on working from home and haven't had their incomes affected one bit. I even know plenty of friends who got new jobs or promotions and are doing better than ever. Circumstances really come down to the individual.

JDD wrote: »

the difference between what my father could afford on his single salary, and what myself and my husband can afford on double that is shocking.

I do think that some of the reason we have ended up in this place is years of mismanagement of housing by the government. It's not just the free market that landed us here. It has been a lack of willpower to structure our housing system in such a way that vast swathes of properties are overpriced. Why has there been a lack of willpower? Of course a proportion of it is lobbying by vested interests, and the rest is just incompetence and fear of doing anything that might rock the boat come the next election.

The thing is that the population of Dublin has grown substantially in that time. Ireland has urbanised, and also attracted a lot of professionals from mainland Europe and other places to come and work here. There are way more people who want to live here than in your or my parents time, and way more of them are highly-paid, so competition for housing has increased. If, as populations increased, housing went upwards, it would have alleviated this massively. Far more people can live in a 12-story block on 1 acre of land than can live in semi-Ds with gardens on 1 acre of land, even if the actual floorspace per dwelling is the same.

But existing homeowners and the TDs/councillors they vote for have generally been opposed to any changes toward this sort of outcome. They want Dublin, or at least their own part of it, to stay the same as back when they moved in, and most of the "new" places being built end up being sprawled further and further outward into increasingly large commuter belts. Lots more people now want to live in Sandymount than did back then, either because they were raised there like you, or because they've moved to Dublin and think its a nice area, but there isn't physically enough space to fit them all in two-storey houses.

Ace2007 wrote: »

I'm sorry but this lad is living in cloud cuckoo land. Why does the Irish times publish this crap - it's alienates a large section of their readers and instead highlights how privilege a certain cohort believe they are, i.e. buying 600k houses straight out of college.

I don't think his point was that he thinks he should get a 600k house, it's that the only things in that area are 600k houses, which are obviously not something he could hope to afford. He said he didn't even want to buy a house at all, he'd have preferred a low-cost rental and put extra money into a pension, which is honestly a better big-picture system than what we have now where pensions are so low that you're kind of doomed at retirement age unless you've paid off your house.

Ace2007 wrote: »

The mad thing is though may of the affluent in the area will lose out if SF come in and put taxes on wealthy individuals, or put up LPT in certain areas. It's easy to make threats but pushing through and voting in a party that could cost their families long term is a different story.

SF is very anti-LPT though, hard to imagine they will do that. At the same time, SF has always been in opposition, so it's been easy to play both sides on housing issues, if they ever take power they may end up having to actually choose a side to come down on.

Browney7 wrote: »

The problem with HTB is that it is of limited use in Dublin city at present as new build houses are likely to be in excess of the cap for HTB of 500k and properties that may be less than this to purchase (2 bed apartments) are being bought by funds and REITs to rent at very high rents to individuals and the councils.

HTB is basically utterly useless in Dublin unfortunately, which is the main place young people actually need help to buy. If the point of the scheme is to help people without a lot of capital get their first property, then tying it to new builds only is just moronic. New builds are inherently more expensive than older ones. Let the people looking to trade up take the new builds, and people looking to buy cheaply take existing builds. Even if you are happy with a smaller apartment, options are scarce, and the government has basically said with their new stamp duty rules that they see new apartments as being purely for the domain of build-to-rent for insitutional investors, so they have no interest in stimulating apartment ownership for FTBs.

Ace2007

What do people consider to be the average income of people buying houses in Dublin

Any qualified person in the IT/Finance/Engineer world has got to be on 50k+ and should be able to reach 70k with 7/10 years experience - north of that is based on the individual and they could make 100k+ if they are decent.

Any trades person is probably taking in close to 50k a year - and maybe more with side jobs.

JimmyVik

Ace2007 wrote: »

But that's because he's looking at house worth 600k. Just because you grow up on an area doesn't mean you should be automatically be able to buy a house in that area.

He is deluded. I personally dont know very many people who can afford a house where they grew up, at least not when they were in their 20s and newly graduated.



Unless you can get the council to give you one

timmyntc

Ace2007 wrote: »

What do people consider to be the average income of people buying houses in Dublin

Any qualified person in the IT/Finance/Engineer world has got to be on 50k+ and should be able to reach 70k with 7/10 years experience - north of that is based on the individual and they could make 100k+ if they are decent.

Any trades person is probably taking in close to 50k a year - and maybe more with side jobs.

The average income is that reported by CSO or other records.
90k per household is the average of all mortgage applicants I believe.

Ace2007

timmyntc wrote: »

The average income is that reported by CSO or other records.
90k per household is the average of all mortgage applicants I believe.

Average income reported by CSO will usually be less than the average income for mortgages though so that' why i was asking.

timmyntc

Ace2007 wrote: »

Average income reported by CSO will usually be less than the average income for mortgages though so that' why i was asking.

Mortgage providers have their own statistics for applicants.
Average income for CSO is fairly accurate - keep in mind that peoples earnings climb for years after they first apply for a mortgage and buy a house, so that actually pushes the national average up above the (joint) mortgage applicant average.

C14N

JimmyVik wrote: »

He is deluded. I personally dont know very many people who can afford a house where they grew up, at least not when they were in their 20s and newly graduated.



Unless you can get the council to give you one

That is definitely true, but I don't think that means it isn't a problem. From an individual perspective, I agree that I don't have much sympathy for a young person who can't buy a house in Blackrock, or Sandymount, or Ranelagh, or whatever. We're all in the same situation; cry me a river.

But on a bigger scale, it points to a huge inter-generational wealth gap that I think is a problem. In most of these cases it's not cases of parents being big over-achievers compared to their kids and having far more lucrative early careers, or the house/location the parents are in being one they traded up several times to finally get to.

It's often that the parents bought it when they were in the same general position in life the kids are in now, and the kids don't have any hope of getting the same kind of outcome. My parents were about my age when they bought their first house, which was quite modestly priced for what they earned at the time, but if that same house or the one next door hit the market today, I likely wouldn't be able to buy it, even though I'm arguably doing better career-wise than they were at the time.

James 007

Jmc25 wrote: »

Now THIS is the problem for FF and FG. There are now quite a number of people from the comfortable classes on good incomes who are also affected by the housing issue. Granted, they're not "locked out" by any means, but they can't buy where they would expect to be able to buy when they look at where people in their professions/on their salaries/with the same sized gift from their parents have bought historically.

This extends all the way down the "property ladder" to use that awful term. I would consider myself and my partner to be on good incomes and have a good amount of savings in the bank, and we're not looking to buy in exclusive areas by any means. Just a 3 bed in a decent, but still very much working class area in north Dublin, similar to where we grew up.

Are we priced out of the housing market? No, we could compromise and buy on the commuter belt or further afield. But it's hard to bring ourselves to compromise when we feel we're not looking for anything extravagant in the first place.

I think it's the people quoted in that article and probably people like myself and my partner - potential FG/FF voters - that are a bigger worry to to Government than the people who are genuinely priced out of the market altogether and can't afford anything.

Still some 3 beds around in the Drumcondra area perhaps may suit
https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/drumcondra-dublin/houses?salePrice_to=400000&numBeds_to=3&numBeds_from=3

Amadan Dubh

Ace2007 wrote: »

What do people consider to be the average income of people buying houses in Dublin

Any qualified person in the IT/Finance/Engineer world has got to be on 50k+ and should be able to reach 70k with 7/10 years experience - north of that is based on the individual and they could make 100k+ if they are decent.

Any trades person is probably taking in close to 50k a year - and maybe more with side jobs.

I suppose the other question is what level of repayments are acceptable on a mortgage? We pay 2.3k pm on rent (approximately 33% of household income) but I would not dream of paying that on a mortgage and targeting a house in the range of 550-600k would give us mortgage repayments of that amount over 30 years!

Why not? Well, the rent at this level is already making it tough to save as much as people probably think we can, based on our household income and to compound matters one of us will have to work part time when we have kids as childcare is hopelessly unaffordable which will result in a compromise to our savings. This is coming from a couple who are supposedly at the top few percent of incomes for renters so I can only imagine how much of a struggle it is for those with much lower household incomes who don't have the luxury of inheritance or are not willing moving back in with mom and dad to save (justifiably so in my opinion as it is toxic for adult kids to live with their parents at home while they are supposed to be out experiencing independence and life away from them).

Amadan Dubh

Ace2007 wrote: »

What do people consider to be the average income of people buying houses in Dublin

Any qualified person in the IT/Finance/Engineer world has got to be on 50k+ and should be able to reach 70k with 7/10 years experience - north of that is based on the individual and they could make 100k+ if they are decent.

Any trades person is probably taking in close to 50k a year - and maybe more with side jobs.

I suppose the other question is what level of repayments are acceptable on a mortgage? We pay 2.3k pm on rent (approximately 33% of household income) but I would not dream of paying that on a mortgage and targeting a house in the range of 550-600k would give us mortgage repayments of that amount over 30 years!

Why not? Well, the rent at this level is already making it tough to save as much as people probably think we can, based on our household income and to compound matters one of us will have to work part time when we have kids as childcare is hopelessly unaffordable which will result in a compromise to our savings. This is coming from a couple who are supposedly at the top few percent of incomes for renters so I can only imagine how much of a struggle it is for those with much lower household incomes who don't have the luxury of inheritance or are not willing moving back in with mom and dad to save (justifiably so in my opinion as it is toxic for adult kids to live with their parents at home while they are supposed to be out experiencing independence and life away from them).

DataDude

C14N wrote: »

But on a bigger scale, it points to a huge inter-generational wealth gap that I think is a problem. In most of these cases it's not cases of parents being big over-achievers compared to their kids and having far more lucrative early careers, or the house/location the parents are in being one they traded up several times to finally get to.

It's often that the parents bought it when they were in the same general position in life the kids are in now, and the kids don't have any hope of getting the same kind of outcome. My parents were about my age when they bought their first house, which was quite modestly priced for what they earned at the time, but if that same house or the one next door hit the market today, I likely wouldn't be able to buy it, even though I'm arguably doing better career-wise than they were at the time.

It's pretty much exactly this, although I think by accident rather than design.

Generation before us lived through massive population growth where demand for services and property skyrocketed. Naturally they owned the businesses for which the demand skyrocketed (either directly owned businesses or via share holdings) and the assets (property in particular) which inflated massively (dropping interest rates to incredibly low levels to inflate asset values further was the cherry on top). Very little has been done to ensure the land/property/infrastructure was there for the generation to follow so there's a scrap going on with major supply/demand imbalance for people under a certain age.

Fairly smart really, maybe we should just do the same to the next generation!

yagan

I wonder what the CSO average household income is when we exclude those already with a mortgage or fully own their home?

I have a feeling it's a lot lower than the overall average.

Graham

DataDude wrote: »

maybe we should just do the same to the next generation!

Don't worry.

The next generation will be posting here in 2040 telling you how easy you had it being able to buy in *insert by-then leafy suburb* at *insert todays price*.

JimmyVik

Graham wrote: »

Don't worry.

The next generation will be posting here in 2040 telling you how easy you had it being able to buy in *insert by-then leafy suburb* at *insert todays price*.

Never a truer word spoken

DataDude

Graham wrote: »

Don't worry.

The next generation will be posting here in 2040 telling you how easy you had it being able to buy in *insert by-then leafy suburb* at *insert todays price*.

Looking forward to it .
I have my repsponse all ready -
"Sure who says you need to live on the island of Ireland. It's only a 4 hour swim each way from Blasket Islands to Dublin. Sure you'll dry off on the walk into work...young people today think it's reasonable to live within a 2 hour drive of their work and family. Ridiculous!"

timmyntc

Graham wrote: »

Don't worry.

The next generation will be posting here in 2040 telling you how easy you had it being able to buy in *insert by-then leafy suburb* at *insert todays price*.

You millenials were so lucky to be able to buy a cheap house in Longford town

Ace2007

C14N wrote: »

It's often that the parents bought it when they were in the same general position in life the kids are in now, and the kids don't have any hope of getting the same kind of outcome. My parents were about my age when they bought their first house, which was quite modestly priced for what they earned at the time, but if that same house or the one next door hit the market today, I likely wouldn't be able to buy it, even though I'm arguably doing better career-wise than they were at the time.

I doubt your parent lived the life that you probably do now - the amount of money that is wasted/spent on stupid things would be at an all time high in last few year.

I know myself there was a time that I could be spending 10eur a day minimum on lunch/tea break, etc - that all adds up, for a couple spending foolishly that's 20quid a day - 600 a week - planning in advance and you could save 400 of that.

The fancy phones - the cost of running a mobile - probably didn't exist in your parents time

The cost of TV packages, the fancy holidays, etc. The cost of child care probably wasn't a factor. The list in endless and it's why comparing what your folks could afford with what you can is a waste of time.

Irish People saved 61m a day in January this year - why? because we had nothing to spend it on.

Graham

Ace2007 wrote: »

I doubt your parent lived the life that you probably do now - the amount of money that is wasted/spent on stupid things would be at an all time high in last few year.

and in 20 years we'll be telling the next generation we didn't waste money on sub-orbital space trips, transcontinental hyper-flights and we had to drive our own cars.

As much as things change they will remain the same.

tigger123

Avocado space toast.

timmyntc

Ace2007 wrote: »

I doubt your parent lived the life that you probably do now - the amount of money that is wasted/spent on stupid things would be at an all time high in last few year.

I know myself there was a time that I could be spending 10eur a day minimum on lunch/tea break, etc - that all adds up, for a couple spending foolishly that's 20quid a day - 600 a week - planning in advance and you could save 400 of that.

The fancy phones - the cost of running a mobile - probably didn't exist in your parents time

The cost of TV packages, the fancy holidays, etc. The cost of child care probably wasn't a factor. The list in endless and it's why comparing what your folks could afford with what you can is a waste of time.

Irish People saved 61m a day in January this year - why? because we had nothing to spend it on.

This has been debunked umpteen times - its the avocado toast argument all over again.

growleaves

Graham wrote: »

and in 20 years we'll be telling the next generation we didn't waste money on sub-orbital space trips, transcontinental hyper-flights and we had to drive our own cars.

As much as things change they will remain the same.

Not being allowed to drive your own car is a drop in the standard of living. Especially if you are forced to car-share, not allowed to own your own car, not able to opt out of EV track and trace technology. It is a loss of personal autonomy.

It could be driven by the same trends affecting property - wage deflation, asset inflation and the resulting "personal austerity" (Ben Bernake).

Hopefully it doesn't go that way of course but that is one possible bad future.

growleaves

The fancy phones - the cost of running a mobile - probably didn't exist in your parents time

If you have no landline and pay only a monthly fixed rate for a mobile you could be easily paying less than someone in the eighties paid in monthly phone bills.

Amadan Dubh

Graham wrote: »

Don't worry.

The next generation will be posting here in 2040 telling you how easy you had it being able to buy in *insert by-then leafy suburb* at *insert todays price*.

At least the current generation can factually back up their claim that the older generations had it easier! According to the recent ESRI reported study.

yagan

growleaves wrote: »

Not being allowed to drive your own car is a drop in the standard of living. Especially if you are forced to car-share, not allowed to own your own car, not able to opt out of EV track and trace technology. It is a loss of personal autonomy.

It could be driven by the same trends affecting property - wage deflation, asset inflation and the resulting "personal austerity" (Ben Bernake).

Hopefully it doesn't go that way of course but that is one possible bad future.

It really depends on infrastructural structural wealth. When I lived in the USA I was always deeply aware of the huge gap between wealth and poverty, a system that had been sustained by the poorest in the belief that anyone can get rich. That's belief seems to be misfiring now.

If a generation doesn't feel it can build its own wealth it loses faith in the setup, and in a certain extent I can feel the public appetite for the FF/FG casino economics is coming to a close.

ebayissues

Ace2007 wrote: »

Areas like Artane, Donnycarney, Beaumount might suit your budget - 4 bed houses going around 400k mark.

I dont get why cabra ex-corp houses are massively pricey to ones in Artane - harmonstown, mcaulay rd, etc - Probably its closer to town. Ex-corp in Donnycarney, Crumlin, Marino - 20/30k more expensive than ones in Artane.



Having lived in Artane, near the dart station, being close to ST - Anne Park, clontarf, Howth, its a gem.

I see sheep

Ace2007 wrote: »

I doubt your parent lived the life that you probably do now - the amount of money that is wasted/spent on stupid things would be at an all time high in last few year.

I know myself there was a time that I could be spending 10eur a day minimum on lunch/tea break, etc - that all adds up, for a couple spending foolishly that's 20quid a day - 600 a week - planning in advance and you could save 400 of that.

The fancy phones - the cost of running a mobile - probably didn't exist in your parents time

The cost of TV packages, the fancy holidays, etc. The cost of child care probably wasn't a factor. The list in endless and it's why comparing what your folks could afford with what you can is a waste of time.

Irish People saved 61m a day in January this year - why? because we had nothing to spend it on.

Jesus unless this post is a wind up I can't people people keep spouting this nonsense.

C14N

Ace2007 wrote: »

I doubt your parent lived the life that you probably do now - the amount of money that is wasted/spent on stupid things would be at an all time high in last few year.

I know myself there was a time that I could be spending 10eur a day minimum on lunch/tea break, etc - that all adds up, for a couple spending foolishly that's 20quid a day - 600 a week - planning in advance and you could save 400 of that.

The fancy phones - the cost of running a mobile - probably didn't exist in your parents time

The cost of TV packages, the fancy holidays, etc. The cost of child care probably wasn't a factor. The list in endless and it's why comparing what your folks could afford with what you can is a waste of time.

Irish People saved 61m a day in January this year - why? because we had nothing to spend it on.

I don't know where you get this from. I've never in my life been spending €10 a day on food. When I was in the office I might now and again get a canteen meal, but that was €5-6 and it was a treat for once a week at most, or maybe every few weeks go out at lunch for about €12-15. Both when I was in the office and at home I cooked almost all of my food myself.

My phone costs me €12 per month and I buy a new one every few years. I don't pay for a TV package, nor do most people my age that I know. I make sure to also renew utilities every year when the contract expires to get a better deal on then, something my parents never bother being concerned with. Before covid I did save for holidays, but budget ones that were hardly extravagant, and my parents did that too at my age, I have the photo albums to prove it. I have some nice things that they didn't due to the progress of technology, but expenses overall aren't really that different.

I'd consider myself to make above-average money for my age, but I could cut all these things out and it would barely make a dent. I've saved up enough for a deposit, but I still have the cap on mortgage to salary that's keeping it down. I'm not saying that's a bad policy, it's probably generally helped keep prices down somewhat, but it's still the limiting factor, not some imagined idea of frivolous spending.

growleaves wrote: »

Not being allowed to drive your own car is a drop in the standard of living

I think they meant cars would be self-driving, which would largely be an improvement. I assume once self-driving cars are widely adopted, car ownership will decrease massively. I personally would have no interest in still paying all of the expenses and having all the inconveniences of car ownership if there was an easy fleet of self-driving cars everywhere to take me wherever I need at a moment's notice.

Ace2007

timmyntc wrote: »

This has been debunked umpteen times - its the avocado toast argument all over again.

The truth can be hard to accept though - a large number of people in Ireland are living beyond their means - you can get interest free credit on nearly anything these days - from furniture, to buying gym equipment.

Gone are the days of saving first and then buying - no wonder people don't have money saved for deposit.

timmyntc

Ace2007 wrote: »

The truth can be hard to accept though - a large number of people in Ireland are living beyond their means - you can get interest free credit on nearly anything these days - from furniture, to buying gym equipment.

Gone are the days of saving first and then buying - no wonder people don't have money saved for deposit.

I agree, the truth that the current generation are at a disadvantage as housing is less affordable than ever - is hard to accept.

You seem very unable to accept it, despite all the evidence that's been put to you you still seem to obsess over anecdotes about people buying avocado toast and interest free gym equipment :pac:

MacronvFrugals

growleaves wrote: »

If you have no landline and pay only a monthly fixed rate for a mobile you could be easily paying less than someone in the eighties paid in monthly phone bills.

I bought a used newish model Iphone for 300 quid, GOMO is 10 euro a month for unlimited everything.


My dad spends 35 on Virgin Media mobile and hasn't a clue what he gets for it lol

In fairness to him he also admits if faced with todays market and 4 kids he'd be languishing on a council waiting list!

ebayissues

Anyone in investments analysis, recommendations would or should know self-control bias.

This is from morning star.

Self Control bias is an emotional human-behavioral tendency that causes people to fail to act in pursuit of their long-term overarching goals because of a lack of self-discipline in the short term. Hence avocado and toast, coffee's morning & lunch, fany holiday's etc.

C14N

ebayissues wrote: »

Anyone in investments analysis, recommendations would or should know self-control bias.

This is from morning star.

Self Control bias is an emotional human-behavioral tendency that causes people to fail to act in pursuit of their long-term overarching goals because of a lack of self-discipline in the short term. Hence avocado and toast, coffee's morning & lunch, fany holiday's etc.

I don't think anyone thinks that there aren't cases of people spending too much money on something frivolous, or that there aren't people who do this sometimes. The fact that people may sometimes take a short-term gain over a more sensible long-term one isn't really an indication though that this is a widespread issue that is behind people's inability to buy a house, or that any one generation would be more susceptible to it than another.

AlmightyCushion

Ace2007 wrote: »

The truth can be hard to accept though - a large number of people in Ireland are living beyond their means - you can get interest free credit on nearly anything these days - from furniture, to buying gym equipment.

Gone are the days of saving first and then buying - no wonder people don't have money saved for deposit.

This is true but there are a lot of people who are reasonably sensible with their money and still aren't able to buy a place.

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

I bought a used newish model Iphone for 300 quid, GOMO is 10 euro a month for unlimited everything.


My dad spends 35 on Virgin Media mobile and hasn't a clue what he gets for it lol

In fairness to him he also admits if faced with todays market and 4 kids he'd be languishing on a council waiting list!

About 7 or 8 years ago, I seen my Dad's mobile bill and it was about €400 for the month. He used it a lot for calls and texts but still crazy money. I switched him over to an unlimited bundle that cost €99 a month (best value at the time). It came with unlimited data which he didn't even use. I can only imagine the money he wasted over the years by not switching his bill to one that suited his needs more.

JimmyVik

Ace2007 wrote: »

I doubt your parent lived the life that you probably do now - the amount of money that is wasted/spent on stupid things would be at an all time high in last few year.

I know myself there was a time that I could be spending 10eur a day minimum on lunch/tea break, etc - that all adds up, for a couple spending foolishly that's 20quid a day - 600 a week - planning in advance and you could save 400 of that.

The fancy phones - the cost of running a mobile - probably didn't exist in your parents time

The cost of TV packages, the fancy holidays, etc. The cost of child care probably wasn't a factor. The list in endless and it's why comparing what your folks could afford with what you can is a waste of time.

Irish People saved 61m a day in January this year - why? because we had nothing to spend it on.

Reminds me of a conversation with my nephew and his girlfriend last week.
They are supposedly saving for a house, but scrounging off anyone who will have them in the meantime. His parents have sold the house and are living in a 1 bed apartment until they go off to travel in a few months, so they cant stay with them anymore. I dont think they have paid rent to anyone they have stayed in about 4 years. Parents, uncles, grandparents.

Anyway they were moaning as usual about how they cant get on the property ladder and its disgraceful and how my generation had it so much easier yadda yadda. Same stuff i used to say to my parents.

And then later on it transpires that they are going off to stay in some swanky hotel in Kerry for a break for a week.
Oh, nice, i said. What hotel is that?
Parknasilla they said.
Oh, that place is expensive isnt it?
Oh yes it is usually, but we got a discount on the price. Its only €450 per night if we go for the week, and sure you know, after the year we have had, we deserve to treat ourselves. Sure we are saving on flights because we arent going to Dubai this year for holidays.

I kept my mouth shut, but caught the rolling eyes of his Dad beside him.

Amadan Dubh

ebayissues wrote: »

Anyone in investments analysis, recommendations would or should know self-control bias.

This is from morning star.

Self Control bias is an emotional human-behavioral tendency that causes people to fail to act in pursuit of their long-term overarching goals because of a lack of self-discipline in the short term. Hence avocado and toast, coffee's morning & lunch, fany holiday's etc.

Well I would argue that corporate interests have ensured that self-control bias is overridden by the constant infiltration of psychological and emotional manipulation in the form of advertising which permeates nearly all aspects of our lives. Particularly the smart phone. Imagine 15 years ago even where companies only had access to you in catalogues, in between TV shows, on the radio, billboards. Today, I think the average is around 3 hours per day people spend on their phones alone, that is so much time to attack the self-control of people and attack their long-term saving goals.

The bigger picture is that our entire Western economic system is built on debt and not savings. You buy a house with 80%+ borrowing, large companies constantly renewing debt facilities and issuing new corpriate bonds, government debts are perpetual etc. In fact, 5he savings of people during the pandemic was even argued to be a negative thing for the economy. Imagine that!

JimmyVik

growleaves wrote: »

If you have no landline and pay only a monthly fixed rate for a mobile you could be easily paying less than someone in the eighties paid in monthly phone bills.

£11.20 for per phone rental and 11p per minute for local calls.
That was 1988 when we got a phone in the house first.
I remember it was such an event. I had to go to the parents with all the workings of the cost of it before they would get it. And that cost was split between 6 of us and a money box beside the phone to drop whatever you spent in calls into.

JimmyVik

ebayissues wrote: »

Anyone in investments analysis, recommendations would or should know self-control bias.

This is from morning star.

Self Control bias is an emotional human-behavioral tendency that causes people to fail to act in pursuit of their long-term overarching goals because of a lack of self-discipline in the short term. Hence avocado and toast, coffee's morning & lunch, fany holiday's etc.

Filthy animal

C14N

JimmyVik wrote: »

Reminds me of a conversation with my nephew and his girlfriend last week.
They are supposedly saving for a house, but scrounging off anyone who will have them in the meantime. His parents have sold the house and are living in a 1 bed apartment until they go off to travel in a few months, so they cant stay with them anymore. I dont think they have paid rent to anyone they have stayed in about 4 years. Parents, uncles, grandparents.

Anyway they were moaning as usual about how they cant get on the property ladder and its disgraceful and how my generation had it so much easier yadda yadda. Same stuff i used to say to my parents.

And then later on it transpires that they are going off to stay in some swanky hotel in Kerry for a break for a week.
Oh, nice, i said. What hotel is that?
Parknasilla they said.
Oh, that place is expensive isnt it?
Oh yes it is usually, but we got a discount on the price. Its only €450 per night if we go for the week, and sure you know, after the year we have had, we deserve to treat ourselves. Sure we are saving on flights because we arent going to Dubai this year for holidays.

I kept my mouth shut, but caught the rolling eyes of his Dad beside him.

Rest assured, this is not normal behaviour or representative of young people in general. I don't know anyone my age who would drop €3000 on a holiday to Kerry, or anywhere else for that matter, especially if they were trying to save for a house.

jill_valentine

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

At least the current generation can factually back up their claim that the older generations had it easier! According to the recent ESRI reported study.

Just in case folks haven't seen it -

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/stagnant-wages-and-expensive-housing-leave-young-people-in-ireland-worse-off-than-parents-1.4560760?mode=amp

The research found that earnings have flat-lined for young people entering the Irish labour market and that workers in their 20s are – in real terms – earning less than they did in the 1990s and 2000s.

Their situation is compounded by higher housing costs fuelled “by rapidly rising rents”. This is in part because home ownership rates for young adults have “collapsed”, the report said.

....

As a result, millennials in the 20s and 30s are likely to be the first generation in Ireland to have lower living standards than the previous one.

I'm not sure I can take another lap on the how-much-phones-actually-cost track.

yagan

Ace2007 wrote: »

Gone are the days of saving first and then buying - no wonder people don't have money saved for deposit.

I remember renting our TV!