Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

Ace2007

timmyntc wrote: »

Thats incredibly disingenuous of you to cut this bit out of the quote:



It says nowhere in that article that prices rised on later phases or that they could keep costs down. 140k was obviously starting price for 2 beds.
End of terrace houses tend to go for a higher price also, so the price quoted is likely 2 bed duplex or mid terrace.

So it costs 60% more to build a 4 bed than a 2 bed??? Really? Something not adding up there

“End of terrace houses tend to go for higher price” implies that your selling based on the market - should end of terrace not be selling for the same price as mid Terrace given that they are for social housing anyway?

timmyntc

Ace2007 wrote: »

So it costs 60% more to build a 4 bed than a 2 bed??? Really? Something not adding up there

“End of terrace houses tend to go for higher price” implies that your selling based on the market - should end of terrace not be selling for the same price as mid Terrace given that they are for social housing anyway?

An end of terrace typically has more land and garden space. Will need more insulation as it has more external walls.

Also if you had looked at the specifics of that development, end of terraces are built totally differently to mid terrace. The website you linked has a gallery of photos from the development.

The 4 beds look to be 3 stories as opposed to 2 also, so thats an extra cost.
Hardly surprising that 2 beds are cheaper than 4 beds.

Ace2007

timmyntc wrote: »

The 4 beds look to be 3 stories as opposed to 2 also, so thats an extra cost.
Hardly surprising that 2 beds are cheaper than 4 beds.

Of course not but 60% dearer?

Bass Reeves

timmyntc wrote: »

An end of terrace typically has more land and garden space. Will need more insulation as it has more external walls.

Also if you had looked at the specifics of that development, end of terraces are built totally differently to mid terrace. The website you linked has a gallery of photos from the development.

The 4 beds look to be 3 stories as opposed to 2 also, so thats an extra cost.
Hardly surprising that 2 beds are cheaper than 4 beds.

Spec's for two beds may be totally different. May single open plan Kitchen/ living dining area. Maybe no ensuite or utility.

4 bed may have separate living, dining and kitchen and two ensuite rooms especially if three stories. But hey we have a load of experts on here obviously they have being involved in the construction industry. They obviously have been I. A foundation pouring concrete and putting slates on roofs. Ya load of plasterers, Plummers and carpenters on here

awec

No pics of the inside or floor plans for those?

Why do they have chimneys?

Bass Reeves

awec wrote: »

No pics of the inside or floor plans for those?

Why do they have chimneys?

When were they build and put for sale. I know of at least one cooperation housing scheme that is in trouble. They were too slow building and prices have escalated. They are struggling to finance the last if it.

The chimneys may be just for aesthetic purposes. However the scheme may have being connected to natural gas as well. They do not look structurally like a normal chimney. They are for gas or a pellet boiler at the most

Wanderer78

Bass Reeves wrote: »

When were they build and put for sale. I know of at least one cooperation housing scheme that is in trouble. They were too slow building and prices have escalated. They are struggling to finance the last if it.

The chimneys may be just for aesthetic purposes. However the scheme may have being connected to natural gas as well. They do not structurally like a normal chimney. They are for gas or a pellet boiler at the most

co op building would need to be accompanied by other approaches, it alone wont solve our housing issues, it would also need stronger supports from the state, in order to be truly effective

PommieBast

Ace2007 wrote: »

Not every house for sale is on myhome.ie though

From personal experience I do wonder whether the opposite is also true..

mcsean2163

Ace2007 wrote: »

Not every house for sale is on myhome.ie though

True but the number on myhome, (primary property site), has dropped instead of increasing contrary to the view expressed by propqueries.

We've a viewing arranged for an expensive house, in fact about €250k more than 2019, I'd guess. Should we hold off for the property flood? I'd definitely think of doing it but so far no evidence of that flood on the horizon..... so maybe we just pay the extra €250,000…??

awec

mcsean2163 wrote: »

True but the number on myhome, (primary property site), has dropped instead of increasing contrary to the view expressed by propqueries.

We've a viewing arranged for an expensive house, in fact about €250k more than 2019, I'd guess. Should we hold off for the property flood? I'd definitely think of doing it but so far no evidence of that flood on the horizon..... so maybe we just pay the extra €250,000…??

What % is that additional 250k of the 2019 price?

Ace2007

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Supply of housing for sale seems to be declining further....

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/ireland/property-for-sale

11,860 now

Ace2007 wrote: »

Not every house for sale is on myhome.ie though

mcsean2163 wrote: »

True but the number on myhome, (primary property site), has dropped instead of increasing contrary to the view expressed by propqueries.

We've a viewing arranged for an expensive house, in fact about €250k more than 2019, I'd guess. Should we hold off for the property flood? I'd definitely think of doing it but so far no evidence of that flood on the horizon..... so maybe we just pay the extra €250,000…??

Daft has 15,536 properties for sale in Ireland

mcsean2163

Ace2007 wrote: »

Daft has 15,536 properties for sale in Ireland

They seem to stay up longer on daft. I'll follow them both, just have been focussed on myhome and number of properties falling on it.

mcsean2163

awec wrote: »

What % is that additional 250k of the 2019 price?

Over 25%. 2019 price a guess.

DataDude

mcsean2163 wrote: »

They seem to stay up longer on daft. I'll follow them both, just have been focussed on myhome and number of properties falling on it.

Can confirm I'm seeing the same. It did increase fairly rapidly from a low of 11,800 up to about 12,650 in April/Early May. It stalled out at that level and is actually back down to 12,550 today. Quite surprising really.

I look in a similar range to you and I definitely hadn't seen anywhere close to a 25% increase in asking on any properties vs last year. Maybe 5-10%. There was one outlier today, I wonder if it's the one you refer to?

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/58-avoca-park-blackrock-co-dublin/4505134

That would have sold for around 850-950 last year. But I'd be absolutely stunned if it got anywhere near asking this year. Asking looks a joke, so if this is the one, I'd steer well clear!

flexcon

Even those numbers are bogus

Take this development

12 units available. Nope. All gone
https://www.daft.ie/new-home-for-sale/harpers-creek-glounthaune-co-cork/1160863

5 units available. Nope. All gone
https://www.daft.ie/new-home-for-sale/gleann-fia-tower-blarney-co-cork/2622421

5 units available. Nope. All gone.
https://www.daft.ie/new-home-for-sale/janeville-maple-avenue-carrigaline-co-cork/1118125


In fact from what I can tell, there is about 10
New houses in cork over 420K available on new builds…. 10.

Graham

Mod Note

hubertj, threadban lifted.

mcsean2163

DataDude wrote: »

Can confirm I'm seeing the same. It did increase fairly rapidly from a low of 11,800 up to about 12,650 in April/Early May. It stalled out at that level and is actually back down to 12,550 today. Quite surprising really.

I look in a similar range to you and I definitely hadn't seen anywhere close to a 25% increase in asking on any properties vs last year. Maybe 5-10%. There was one outlier today, I wonder if it's the one you refer to?

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/58-avoca-park-blackrock-co-dublin/4505134

That would have sold for around 850-950 last year. But I'd be absolutely stunned if it got anywhere near asking this year. Asking looks a joke, so if this is the one, I'd steer well clear!

Nope. Not a Dublin one, convinced my wife to take a look. Big markup, IMHO but at this point we need to get moving...

mcsean2163

A fund building a build to rent scheme referred to European court of justice....?

https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/proposed-16-storey-height-of-project-at-old-bailey-gibson-site-referred-to-court-of-justice-of-the-eu-b14e7ad0

Sheeps

NIMBYs strike again. The housing crisis will never end because most people in the country don't actually want any of the solutions to it.

cnocbui

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Nope. Not a Dublin one, convinced my wife to take a look. Big markup, IMHO but at this point we need to get moving...

If you need to buy, buy. So many people seem to be doing the equivalent of share market day-trading: relying on timing dips which are not guarunteed to come at all.

Underground

It's simple enough really. Housing needs to be a) supplied and b) affordable.

If new housing en masse is made affordable, the value of everybody else's home would decrease. At the risk of sounding like a commie, this is a pill that current homeowners should have to swallow. It is for the betterment of society. Sorry if that upsets you as a homeowner, but it's the truth.

Unfortunately FFG have absolutely ZERO interest in doing this. That's fine, it will be the hill they die on (for at the very least one Government cycle, hopefully more) , of that I am sure. So take some comfort from that.

tobsey

Underground wrote: »

It's simple enough really. Housing needs to be a) supplied and b) affordable.

If new housing en masse is made affordable, the value of everybody else's home would decrease. At the risk of sounding like a commie, this is a pill that current homeowners should have to swallow. It is for the betterment of society. Sorry if that upsets you as a homeowner, but it's the truth.

Unfortunately FFG have absolutely ZERO interest in doing this. That's fine, it will be the hill they die on (for at the very least one Government cycle, hopefully more) , of that I am sure. So take some comfort from that.

Housing in some areas is unaffordable for some people. Plenty of people are buying houses at the moment. We’ve had a generation of negative equity owners already, creating another one won’t help.

Underground

tobsey wrote: »

Housing in some areas is unaffordable for some people. Plenty of people are buying houses at the moment. We’ve had a generation of negative equity owners already, creating another one won’t help.

I see your point but honestly speaking from the standpoint of someone who can't afford a house, I aspire to be in negative equity. I see it as such a first world problem. If you're buying the house to be a home and not an investment, it shouldn't be an issue.

If I'm putting the key in the door of my own home every night and crucially, not under financial stress (LTI rules are there to ensure you're not), then I couldn't give a rats about the equity in my house tbh.

rob316

Now the pandemic is on the home stretch, the pressure on the government is going to heat up. I fully believe if it wasn't for covid people would be on the streets protesting.
The last government built nothing and was decimated in the election. Pandemic or not, SF will sweep home if the current government do not solve this.

Graham

Mod Note


please take the politics discussion to the appropriate forum.

Do not reply to this post.

tobsey

Underground wrote: »

I see your point but honestly speaking from the standpoint of someone who can't afford a house, I aspire to be in negative equity. I see it as such a first world problem. If you're buying the house to be a home and not an investment, it shouldn't be an issue.

If I'm putting the key in the door of my own home every night and crucially, not under financial stress (LTI rules are there to ensure you're not), then I couldn't give a rats about the equity in my house tbh.

Until your circumstances change. I went through negative equity having bought young, then saw friends buy houses for less than we paid, while we’d had kids and completely outgrown our house. We were completely stuck. This was also a time when rent was 60% the cost of the mortgage. We also had to upgrade the house as the windows and kitchen were very old. You, and people in your situation, aren’t the only ones who’ve had issues with housing. I’ll say straight up I have skin in the game because I’m selling my house now to buy something bigger, and I may regret it if prices come down. But if I don’t sell now I won’t have the cash to buy. 4 kids, 2 cats and a dog just don’t fit in a 3 bed semi.

Ace2007

Underground wrote: »

I see your point but honestly speaking from the standpoint of someone who can't afford a house, I aspire to be in negative equity. I see it as such a first world problem. If you're buying the house to be a home and not an investment, it shouldn't be an issue.

If I'm putting the key in the door of my own home every night and crucially, not under financial stress (LTI rules are there to ensure you're not), then I couldn't give a rats about the equity in my house tbh.

If you can’t afford a house then building 100k more en mass probably won’t solve that issue though?

Again is it you can’t afford a house, or you can’t afford a house where you want to live? Many people in the past had to leave home and even Ireland to make a life for themselves but now it’s like people won’t leave dublin or their surrounding areas to afford somewhere. I’ve seen really nice 4 bedroom houses for sub 250k in the commute belts on Dublin - less than 1 hour drive.

If at the moment the only folk that can buy are middle to high earners, why is it fair to punish them for working/studying hard in the past to afford a house?

Underground

Ace2007 wrote: »

If you can’t afford a house then building 100k more en mass probably won’t solve that issue though?

Again is it you can’t afford a house, or you can’t afford a house where you want to live? Many people in the past had to leave home and even Ireland to make a life for themselves but now it’s like people won’t leave dublin or their surrounding areas to afford somewhere. I’ve seen really nice 4 bedroom houses for sub 250k in the commute belts on Dublin - less than 1 hour drive.

If at the moment the only folk that can buy are middle to high earners, why is it fair to punish them for working/studying hard in the past to afford a house?

Well one would think that substantially increasing the housing supply should in theory bring the price of housing down, if enough housing were introduced.

I'll be honest and say I'm guilty of not being able to afford a house where I want to live. I'm a middle income earner (I think I earn okay money for my age, 53k at 30) who studied and worked hard as you said. But also single, which makes buying on your own, particularly in Dublin, a bit of a pipe dream.

I know I mentioned first world problems earlier and it might seem a quintessential first world problem to not be able to afford a house in the county you were born and raised but it's hard not to get depressed by it.

Ace2007

Underground wrote: »

Well one would think that substantially increasing the housing supply should in theory bring the price of housing down, if enough housing were introduced.

I'll be honest and say I'm guilty of not being able to afford a house where I want to live. I'm a middle income earner (I think I earn okay money for my age, 53k at 30) who studied and worked hard as you said. But also single, which makes buying on your own, particularly in Dublin, a bit of a pipe dream.

I know I mentioned first world problems earlier and it might seem a quintessential first world problem to not be able to afford a house in the county you were born and raised but it's hard not to get depressed by it.

Not knowing what you studied but let’s assume it involved some sort of professional qualification that you spent 3/4 years plus college studying for. Now you wouldn’t be happy if the exams board changed their policy to allow people to pass with just CPD and no exams because there was a lack of supply in the market? That’s similar enough to what your saying regard housing albeit a bit far fetched.

I guess in your spot - does a single person need to buy a house? Your competing against all families and those with two person incomes - would you consider an apartment? Or buying on the commuter belt?

Or holding out altogether - you could meet the love of your life next year and they might not want to live in Dublin or the area you buy in and then if you did buy a house you would no longer be a first time buyer if buying with that other person in future and need bigger deposit etc.

Beigepaint

Ace2007 wrote: »

Again is it you can’t afford a house, or you can’t afford a house where you want to live? Many people in the past had to leave home and even Ireland to make a life for themselves but now it’s like people won’t leave dublin or their surrounding areas to afford somewhere. I’ve seen really nice 4 bedroom houses for sub 250k in the commute belts on Dublin - less than 1 hour drive.

More of this commuting as a solution madness!

I can’t emphasise this enough: why do we aspire to a long commute in this country? Who is the group that benefits from this?

The ten or fifteen men that own 85% of the car parks in the country?
The ten or fifteen men who run the foreign car franchises?

It does not benefit ANY Irish person that we commute so much. Take a look at the greater Dublin area on google earth - there are huge chunks, large patches and tiny lots ALL OVER the city and county that you DRIVE PAST on the way to Carlow!

I feel like you people who love spending time with your cars and hate spending time with your kids have far too much influence on policy. (Remember that just as black is a colour and zero is a number, laissez fair incompetence is current Irish housing policy)

Ace2007

Beigepaint wrote: »

More of this commuting as a solution madness!

I can’t emphasise this enough: why do we aspire to a long commute in this country? Who is the group that benefits from this?

The ten or fifteen men that own 85% of the car parks in the country?
The ten or fifteen men who run the foreign car franchises?

It does not benefit ANY Irish person that we commute so much. Take a look at the greater Dublin area on google earth - there are huge chunks, large patches and tiny lots ALL OVER the city and county that you DRIVE PAST on the way to Carlow!

I feel like you people who love spending time with your cars and hate spending time with your kids have far too much influence on policy. (Remember that just as black is a colour and zero is a number, laissez fair incompetence is current Irish housing policy)

So what’s your realistic solution for this poster - whose salary will mean max mortgage of 185k

Remember the poster is looking to buy now - not in 5 years

Jmc25

Underground wrote: »

If new housing en masse is made affordable, the value of everybody else's home would decrease. At the risk of sounding like a commie, this is a pill that current homeowners should have to swallow. It is for the betterment of society. Sorry if that upsets you as a homeowner, but it's the truth.

I agree that it would over the long term be for the greater good of prices came down to a lower % of average salary. Let's say a 20% drop on current prices for the sake of argument.

For some home owners who bought recently that would be a very bitter pill to swallow, especially if it happened quickly. Any Government which set out with the stated intention of lowering prices would be well advised to also set up some kind of scheme to help these owners if they go into negative equity.

The vast majority of homeowners bought their homes at prices which were at least 20% lower than what they would sell for today so other than hampering their ability to make a speculative profit on their own home, it probably wouldn't have a material impact on their lives.

timmyntc

Jmc25 wrote: »

I agree that it would over the long term be for the greater good of prices came down to a lower % of average salary. Let's say a 20% drop on current prices for the sake of argument.

For some home owners who bought recently that would be a very bitter pill to swallow, especially if it happened quickly. Any Government which set out with the stated intention of lowering prices would be well advised to also set up some kind of scheme to help these owners if they go into negative equity.

The vast majority of homeowners bought their homes at prices which were at least 20% lower than what they would sell for today so other than hampering their ability to make a speculative profit on their own home, it probably wouldn't have a material impact on their lives.

Negative equity only applies to those who bought recently - if you have most or all of mortgage paid off, a drop in value is fine - even if you want to sell and trade up, all other prices dropped too.

There will always be some people who lose out in the speculation game, you cant try and bankroll them with govt money.

Ace2007

For the Poster a few posts back that wants to buy house now - what’s his alternative to not buying on the commuter belt - given I was shot down for that suggestion- I’m greatly looking forward to see the other solutions - that will help him/her buy in near term.

timmyntc

Ace2007 wrote: »

For the Poster a few posts back that wants to buy house now - what’s his alternative to not buying on the commuter belt - given I was shot down for that suggestion- I’m greatly looking forward to see the other solutions - that will help him/her buy in near term.

If I needed to buy right now, then I would. Either now or once things open up in the hope listings increase.

The timeline for an election and the new govt to make any real changes is in the years - so unless you can stomach waiting for 2-3 years, there isnt much of a choice is there.

Ace2007

timmyntc wrote: »

If I needed to buy right now, then I would. Either now or once things open up in the hope listings increase.

The timeline for an election and the new govt to make any real changes is in the years - so unless you can stomach waiting for 2-3 years, there isnt much of a choice is there.

Perfect so my suggestion wasn't ridiculous as another poster said. It's very easy to shoot down and idea without reading the needs of the poster.

Beigepaint

Ace2007 wrote: »

Perfect so my suggestion wasn't ridiculous as another poster said. It's very easy to shoot down and idea without reading the needs of the poster.

That individual in unfavourable circumstances is forced to choose between several bad outcomes.

Commuting two hours a day - and trips in the car every time they need milk or to pick the kids up from school is the least bad option for that one individual poster.

However everyone who has the ability to hold out a year or two should hold out to see what events fall out from post pandemic Ireland.

timmyntc

Ace2007 wrote: »

Perfect so my suggestion wasn't ridiculous as another poster said. It's very easy to shoot down and idea without reading the needs of the poster.

Beigepaint wrote: »

That individual in unfavourable circumstances is forced to choose between several bad outcomes.

Commuting two hours a day - and trips in the car every time they need milk or to pick the kids up from school is the least bad option for that one individual poster.

However everyone who has the ability to hold out a year or two should hold out to see what events fall out from post pandemic Ireland.

Yes. If you're stuck between a rock and a hard place theres not much you can do. Either get shafted with rent or buy somewhere you have no real interest in.

But in a perfect non-dysfunctional world, you would be able to afford somewhere in Dublin. Not the most desirable areas, but not have to buy out in Kildare or Meath and commute to your life in Dublin.

Ace2007

Beigepaint wrote: »

That individual in unfavourable circumstances is forced to choose between several bad outcomes.

Commuting two hours a day - and trips in the car every time they need milk or to pick the kids up from school is the least bad option for that one individual poster.

However everyone who has the ability to hold out a year or two should hold out to see what events fall out from post pandemic Ireland.

Many people living in Dublin are commuting two hours a day so that argument really falls away.

the needs for car - your talking as if the commuter belts don't have any amenities - places like Maynooth/Navan all have shops/schools and your able to walk in these places.

Villa05

Ace2007 wrote:

If at the moment the only folk that can buy are middle to high earners, why is it fair to punish them for working/studying hard in the past to afford a house?

Is it punishment for them if more people can afford homes? I would have thought it would be severe punishment to tax them more to house people at ever increasing price through rents that are more expensive than buying and increasingly those rents leaving the country tax free

Mad_maxx

Sheeps wrote: »

NIMBYs strike again. The housing crisis will never end because most people in the country don't actually want any of the solutions to it.

We don't want the health service fixed either as reform means people we know loosing a job or the hospital closest to us closing

Mad_maxx

Jmc25 wrote: »

I agree that it would over the long term be for the greater good of prices came down to a lower % of average salary. Let's say a 20% drop on current prices for the sake of argument.

For some home owners who bought recently that would be a very bitter pill to swallow, especially if it happened quickly. Any Government which set out with the stated intention of lowering prices would be well advised to also set up some kind of scheme to help these owners if they go into negative equity.

The vast majority of homeowners bought their homes at prices which were at least 20% lower than what they would sell for today so other than hampering their ability to make a speculative profit on their own home, it probably wouldn't have a material impact on their lives.

20% isn't a big drop , Limerick city prices are up 10% in the past six months alone

awec

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57313700

UK house prices up 11% Jan -> May.

Villa05

Ouch

Have all the Irish banks cut there links to the British market

Record number of mortgage approvals here for the 12 months to April

MacronvFrugals

Canary in the coalmine!

Karl Deeter, a financial adviser at Irish Mortgage Brokers, said he fears Ireland is headed for another crash.

Rents are rising too high, while overseas investors are fuelling activity by buying up too many apartments and houses which causes first-time buyers to be pushed out of the market.

Compounding the issue is the fact that there is a chronic shortage of housing to keep up with demand.

‘So you’re getting into this kind of situation where I think we’re probably around where we might have been in 2003/4. I’m not saying it’s going to be a similar scale or fallout but in terms of dynamic we are going to prime ourselves for a crash because this is going to send out signals everywhere that “housing at all costs, lots of it no matter what, get it done, get it done”.

‘And when we do that, that’s the type of supply that will turn things upside down. Those purchase signals create an investment appetite to take on the risk because the signals are really positive and then everyone starts to supply at once and that’s where it can start to move towards the territory where it can go pear-shaped.’

https://extra.ie/2021/06/01/property/home-loan-approvals

Jmc25

awec wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57313700

UK house prices up 11% Jan -> May.

Based on what I've read here and seen myself looking to buy since around February, I'd say we'll be seeing similar headlines here once all the sales from the last two or three months close and hit the PPR. Unless I'm having WILDLY bad luck in the properties I'm bidding on.

timmyntc

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Canary in the coalmine!









https://extra.ie/2021/06/01/property/home-loan-approvals

But its that chronic housing shortage he mentioned that is crucial to the whole thing. We won't jump from undersupply to oversupply unless theres a big shock that causes owner-occupier demand to plummet.

FromADistance

cnocbui wrote: »

What is the point of your combative reply? You aren't in the market complaining about housing costs, so why complain about a suggestion that isn't directed at or applicable to you?

Oh so I'm not allowed to be annoyed at the suggestion that the answer to everything is move out of Dublin... I'd like to think my children will be able to live close to me if they want... not 100 miles away because of inflated house / rent prices. Anyone defending this nonsence needs to take a good hard look at themselves.

yagan

FromADistance wrote: »

Oh so I'm not allowed to be annoyed at the suggestion that the answer to everything is move out of Dublin... I'd like to think my children will be able to live close to me if they want... not 100 miles away because of inflated house / rent prices. Anyone defending this nonsence needs to take a good hard look at themselves.

I think an interesting question is do any of the people who decide on planning decisions for Dublin city actually live between the canals.

It often feels like a very unloved city by its nation and the most charming bits are remnants of a foreign power that made it comfortable for a ruling class that oversaw the extraction of the nations assets and who felt more connected to Mayfair than Mayo.

It now often feels like a dumping ground.

Ace2007

FromADistance wrote: »

Oh so I'm not allowed to be annoyed at the suggestion that the answer to everything is move out of Dublin... I'd like to think my children will be able to live close to me if they want... not 100 miles away because of inflated house / rent prices. Anyone defending this nonsence needs to take a good hard look at themselves.

You can be annoyed for sure, but reality is that if you want to buy a house now, and can't afford in Dublin, the options - are to buy within the commuter belt or move jobs to a county outside of Dublin. You might not like these options, but i'm sure there a hundred thousand plus people living in the commute belts that would like to live in Dublin, but have come to the realization that it's not realistic, some may be glad not to be living in Dublin, as they got more for their money and have the extra room to be used as WFH office.