Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

Timing belt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897014#Comment_118897014

I might be wrong but I think there is no LTI limits and crazy LTV in Netherlands so an increase in rates will directly effect the amount being borrowed and owners are very exposed as have borrowed heavily unlike in Ireland where borrowing has been restrained by LTI and LTV limits

MacronvFrugals

Canadians getting a bit desperate now

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/08/canada-bans-foreign-investors-buying-homes-housing-market

CorkRed93

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118901128#Comment_118901128

2 years 🤣

Bass Reeves

How long will the average person spend in a shower/ bathroom every day twenty minutes. Any person can shower and dry themselves in 10-12 minutes and go to there own room then to put on there clothes. We have a former house. There is a bathroom upstairs with a Shower that is separate to the bath. There is two bedrooms downstairs. There was a small bathroom between them ( about 1.8mX2.4m) we changed that to a proper shower room that is fairly mobility proofed.

The fad of large living area may actually change as WFH evolves. Most bedrooms are probably limited in size to hold a desk. It's seldom that everybody in a house go to work and school together.

En suited take up more space than you think. There is also the studded walls. Small ensuite's are probably useless longterm where a person has mobility issues. In general they tend 900 mm or less wide and 2.4ish M long. These are too small for functional wet rooms.

A hallway can be very functional. It can actually serve as a at room for children. Our former had an L shaped one. The lads when younger spend as much time there with toys as in the kitchen dining room or sitting room.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118901128#Comment_118901128

As we should be. A bit of desperation from government wouldn’t go amiss at this stage

J_1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899105#Comment_118899105

In Germany the prsi equivalent works following:

employee and employer each pay about 17% of gross salary into it, the cap is at 150k income.

ie someone on 35k would pay almost 6k prsi.(and employer a similar amount)

here in ireland everyone wants a generous welfare state and not pay for it.

cutting entitlements:

-if you can’t afford to heat your house or refurbish it, sell it and buy an apartment instead of asking for endless handouts

-shared living for those on welfare (cuts costs etc and frees up space for homeless)

combat14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118901757#Comment_118901757

interesting..

unfortunately increasing employer PRSI to 17% here would put many small companies out of business leading to increased unemployment

increasing employee prsi to 17% could lead to revolution .. we all saw the national visceral reaction to the introduction of tiny water charges.. many workers would decide it is not worth working..

on the flip side a massive increase in prsi would take the heat out of the housing market with many not able to afford the celtic tiger nose bleed mortgages here..

as for shared living for the generational dolers who celebrate 40 years on the dole as an achievement and never send in cvs .. we would have to increase our army and police force to deal with all the problems! ..

maybe im wrong perhaps 17% employer prsi and 17% employee prsi like germany would work a charm here?

anecdotally had the plumbers over yesterday they were predicting a recession here also in the next 9 months as contruction work dries up due to spiralling inflation...

amacca

"as for shared living for the generational dolers who celebrate 40 years on the dole as an achievement and never send in cvs .. we would have to increase our army and police force to deal with all the problems! .."

Thats why that situation should never have been let develop imo......it was always going to be a recipe for disaster imo

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898842#Comment_118898842

the irish middle class carry a vastly disproportionate level of income tax burden , its lower wage earners who need to pay more tax , tax on those earning below 25 k here is lower than anywhere else in Europe

wassie

Lowest wage earners dispose most of their income. Making them pay additional tax would simply take money out of the economy, particularly retail. Maybe start looking at the preferential tax treatment of institutional landlords in this country instead.

Villa05

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118903145#Comment_118903145

What's your definition of middle class?

It's quiet clear who in this country does not pay there fair share of tax.

Low income workers get hammered from inflation and housing crisis. Both are directly linked to government and central banks policy. Do we ask them for more to feed the beasts that are breaking them?

How do we get more out of them? Blood donations!

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118903428#Comment_118903428

say every other country in europe has it wrong ?

someone earning circa 20 k in Sweden pays about eight times as much income tax as someone in ireland

J_1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118903145#Comment_118903145

Anyone below 55k needs to pay more.

whole thing is an endless gravy train. Free stuff and complaining for more free stuff. Irish people are like little children. This country only functions if it’s run by Brussels or London….

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118903839#Comment_118903839

Unfortunately, this is not a uniquely Irish problem. Just look at what goes on over in the States of across the pond, and one can see that infantilisation of the adult population is universal to the West.

Personally, I would be in favour of tax cuts across the board with corresponding reductions in the size of the state to go along with it. Giving the state more tax will only perpetuate the problems that currently exist. The state is a bloated monstrosity of waste. It's well past time for a crash diet.

J_1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118903874#Comment_118903874

Australia, NZ and USA, EE as well as most of Asia will be the winners out of the next crisis. They don’t have it nearly as bad.

the most left leaning continents are LatAmerica and Western Europe. Both will be wiped out economically in the next 10-15y (they’ve already been massive laggards since GFC). Biggest long term risk in buying property.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118903897#Comment_118903897

I think that the world is heading east. Europe is too far along the welfare gravy train to jump off without serious damage. I think we missed the golden opportunity to get the ship in order during the financial crisis of '08, but we merely doubled down and kicked the can up the road. I don't feel optimistic about the next few decades at all.

combat14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118903428#Comment_118903428

and yet all the same they pay far more taxes in germany/europe than here ...........

Ush1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118903839#Comment_118903839

Why 55k?

J_1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118904150#Comment_118904150

Up to 35k contribution to society isnbasically a joke, ie nothing.

from 35k this quickly changes with the 40% band. 55k is Just a rough estimate from where the tax burden becomes overly punitive. 40-55k I’d say is “fair”

Villa05

In a country where tax receipts are at record levels, suddenly low income workers are the problem. Those who kept the country ticking over while the wealthy were printing money to drive up asset prices.

Maybe we have too many people on high incomes with limited intelligence.

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118904064#Comment_118904064

Would agree with that big time, I think the West has became really radical West in terms of both welfare, governance and even speech. Leo's best buddy in Canada is a prime example. When you see Le Penn gaining ground in France it also shakes up the EU big time. Personally I really feel the ECB have absolute got this so so wrong it unbelievable. Everybody including myself though England was dust after brexit, December 2020 I went to Enniskillen to buy drink I got 95 pence to the euro, its nearly 80 pence to euro now why that? Not because the English economy is so resilient, because the Bank of England is setting there interest rates outside of the ECB.

I really believe if this inflation takes off like the 70s, and the normal person gets hammered, strikes and unrest starts due to food shortages which are comming, le pen may be in power and they might look at England who are ahead of the ECB in terms on monetary tighting and there stronger pound and say Hey they Pulled out of the EU and guess what there alright.

Due to the treatys on votes based on population France would be stay hammer blow to the German based European Union (truth be told I hate the Germans).

I firmly believe if the ECB get this horribly wrong the breakup of the EU will happen within 5 years.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118904862#Comment_118904862

I've never been a fan of the EU. To me, a grand alliance of states that have centuries of animosity between them was never going to be smooth sailing. This is not the United States, and whilst we may all be Europeans, there isn't a lot to unit us. Living beside each other without wars is all that the EU needs to deliver, but it seems that somewhere along the line it became something else.

As things stand, we face a situation where owning a home will go from being a reasonable aspiration for anyone willing to work to being a pipe dream for an increasing proportion of the population. The question is whether these younger generations will accept this "new normal" (to borrow a neologism) or whether they will seek to correct it. I personally am starting to look at my parents, aunts and uncles and older relatives in general and raising my eyebrows as they talk of retirement at 60 and what to do with their holiday homes. I'm not one to indulge the green-eyed monster, but my patience is wearing thin. The older generations have benefited very well from the state and seem to have little worry about how those younger than them will fare now that the bill for their indulgences is arriving.

In my opinion, the rising popularity of figures like La Penn, whether or not she achieves the office she seeks, speaks to a change. The current Western model, as embodied by figures just like the dancing peacock over in Canada, is crippling the middle class and those just below it. Something has to change, so let the change roll in!

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118904707#Comment_118904707

Looking at the Irish tax system

@16k you pay no tax

@20k you pay 6% of your income in tax

@30k you pay 12% of your income in tax

@40kyou pay 25% of your income in tax

@80k you pay 35% of your income in tax

The issue is that any tax system is discriminatory. It's a combined system of self employed and PAYE.

Because of our low corporate rate it pays micro industries to incorporate earlier than others countries.

Our taxation system at lower taxation rates is hugely beneficial to the self employed

mcsean2163

myhome at 11642 properties now, slowly but surely ticking up.

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/anglesea-house-lower-kensington-coach-hill-cork-rochestown-co-cork/4532478

This boggles my mind. 732 sqm. I guess it has a swimming pool. It just seems very big to me. I guess if I was 22 again, a pool would be pretty cool, maybe the stripe guys will buy it.

Giblet

Jesus that looks ghastly.. Money cannot buy taste.

Villa05

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905078#Comment_118905078

The people in the first 4 categories most likely spend all their income to cover a basic enough cost of living some may even need subsidies, but work should always be rewarded more than SW.

Spending all their income means they pay significant vat in proportion to their total income.

In the 80k bracket, people can offset their tax with pension contributions at the higher rate of tax. If done, they can bring their effective tax rate down to very close to the person on 40k.

With regard to self employed. There is a spirit of reselience and entrepreneurship in this sector that I feel should be rewarded. Alot to be said for people that have the get up and go to do things for themselves.

Amadan Dubh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118904547#Comment_118904547

35k is pretty much the minimum wage you need as a working renter to be able to survive in Dublin anyway so it shouldn't really be seen as a level to raise taxes on. Full time workers earning less than €35k are likely being subsidized by the State in their lives via some form of benefit.

That being said, 35k is apparently the median income in the State which shows out vastly unsustainable the rents in this country are.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905684#Comment_118905684

The average full time worker in the country earns about 50k at the moment. Earning are skewed by the amount of mostly students working part-time.

In general earnings in Dublin would be running 10% above national averages. The median wage in Dublin is probably near 50k. Add to this that when you look at earning it PAYE workers you are looking at. A lit of the self employed have the ability to shelter earnings.

CorkRed93

https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/hundreds-of-homes-at-odevaney-gardens-can-now-be-sold-to-funds-da5fd358

gov are cucks for investment fund capital. cant go a week without shooting themselves in the foot honestly its embarrassing.

Amadan Dubh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905737#Comment_118905737

That's even more of a reason to not touch anything up to 35k.

So much cash gets pumped into property that it is low hanging fruit to tax more, especially if the tax encourages the capital to flow around more eg because people can no longer afford the tax on their property. Looking at the value of housing increase so much each year, yet the cost for existing owners remains the same during that time doesn't really lend itself to a sustainable and productive economy. By not taxing properties more we are incentivising hoarding. Wealth in this country is almost unanimously defined by home ownership which applies to mean that the wealthy are the homeowners, whether they believe / approve / feel / deny it and part of our progressive tax system is to tax higher on wealthier participants.