Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

am_zarathustra

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

The infamous "this time it's different" line, I love to read it!

For normal people it will be. The stress of the last bubble was house prices crashing, wages stagnating or dropping with job losses, and over supply along with mass
emmigration. Most couples currently borrowing are doing so at 17-25% of their net, not even their gross. This is very sustainable and for most it would be possible to pay on one person's wage at a stretch. In the early 2000s people were getting 110% mortgages with repayments 40-50% of net and net included things like bonuses. This was reckless.

For most normal people a dip in house prices won't really effect them, family homes turn over infrequently. It might drive some institutional investors out but it also might draw them in. Personally I think inflation at a high level, increased interest rates and wage stagnation will actually hit people who bought unaffordable houses in the 2000s, ran into trouble and barely kept them. People getting mortgages today are stress tested to an insane level by comparison, sensibly given the type of trouble people got into.

hometruths

javaboy wrote: »

What do you think could cause the pop and how might it play out?

I think things are relatively stable and unlikely to pop. Strong government intervention around institutional investors, AHBs, council purchases etc. might dampen prices but I wouldn't envisage a catastrophic collapse.

Personally, I think the real issue is in the long term when people locked into the rental market reach retirement age.

I'm not sure if it is a bubble that will pop or not, but I have not heard many convincing arguments against it being a bubble.

All I know for sure is that are more headwinds than tailwinds facing the property market.

It could be argued that the strength of current prices is largely down to government policy. Thus either a change in policy or a change in government could be what causes the pop.

Amadan Dubh

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

If and when the bubble pops it will be caused as last time by something that happens in the US , last time our housing model was akin to theirs and when their market hit the rocks so did ours. This time despite efforts to outsource risk we are still tied very closely to the US model and investment and when their QE experiment comes under pressure we will feel the effects.

Yes, it will be linked to the US again. Just look at our recovery, it has relied on US MNCs and US institutional investors to employ people in Ireland and hoover up our distressed assets. This is why it is useful to read what happens there in order to appreciate the risks appropriate to Ireland, moreso than to monitor what is happening in other EU countries anyway. At the same time, it is totally out of the hands of those of us commenting here on Boards so is sort of like plane or bird watching, it is just a hobby interest to follow and discuss.

One thing I read in the last week was related to the institutionals being reluctant to drop rents, which we understand is linked to book values of the assets, how drops in asset values could trigger breaches of covenants in finance arrangements related to those assets, which of course could lead to forced asset sales by the lenders. The Central Bank also mentioned this in its risk report; the risk of asset fire sales and its impact on the property market. Liquidity and easy money is there until isn't.

Short story long, what happens in the US is extremely relevant to Ireland and not so much what happens in other EU countries.

Villa05

Marius34 wrote:

But we talk New builds versus Second hand. And there are more FTB in secondary market, than for new builds, for long while, even before REIT's increased their share.

That's hardly surprising as output of new homes has been suppressed for most of the last decade.

In the early years of the recovery, there were numerous stories on here of sales falling through as banks were bundling properties for sale to investment funds rather than proceed with sale to individuals.
This has evolved to investment funds dominating the new build market, despite the grants available to FTB s. The introduction of shared ownership of in this environment will be disastrous for affordability. It's akin to watching the fire brigade connecting their hoses to a petrol reservoir to put out the fire in your home

This is happening while multiple red flags of a bubble are flying in markets this economy are exposed to mainly US and UK

This mess is avoidable but we seem to be insistent on walking into traps that have caught us before. Madness!

Amadan Dubh

am_zarathustra wrote: »

For normal people it will be. The stress of the last bubble was house prices crashing, wages stagnating or dropping with job losses, and over supply along with mass
emmigration. Most couples currently borrowing are doing so at 17-25% of their net, not even their gross. This is very sustainable and for most it would be possible to pay on one person's wage at a stretch. In the early 2000s people were getting 110% mortgages with repayments 40-50% of net and net included things like bonuses. This was reckless.

For most normal people a dip in house prices won't really effect them, family homes turn over infrequently. It might drive some institutional investors out but it also might draw them in. Personally I think inflation at a high level, increased interest rates and wage stagnation will actually hit people who bought unaffordable houses in the 2000s, ran into trouble and barely kept them. People getting mortgages today are stress tested to an insane level by comparison, sensibly given the type of trouble people got into.

Yes, for individual borrowers it looks like they are protected from themselves! Maybe some interest rate rises adding a couple hundred to mortgage interest repayments might also be sustainable. I just hope that the State (capital S) won't somehow put the Irish taxpayer on the hook for any crash which predominantly harms the institutional investors (e.g. reckless 20/25 year social housing leases at 90% market rents requiring property taxes to steadily be increased).

yagan

schmittel wrote: »

I'm not sure if it is a bubble that will pop or not, but I have not heard many convincing arguments against it being a bubble.

All I know for sure is that are more headwinds than tailwinds facing the property market.

It could be argued that the strength of current prices is largely down to government policy. Thus either a change in policy or a change in government could be what causes the pop.

I think attempts to compare the current market with our last property bubble and bust does skew perceptions.

I think there is a huge bubble, although it's much more dominant in buy to let apartments rather than the long term family house segment. In the last bubble it was every type of property that was overvalued.

If/when this bubble pops I don't think the family home will be affected as much as the apartment market.

FromADistance

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

Aparthotels, student accommodation, co-living, office buildings and hotels are our 10s ghost estates in Dublin. Pretty dire outlook for Dublin city hotels for the summer season. This essentially means that they are looking at spring 2022 before they start to get some sort of decent bookings, at the earliest - another 9 months. This has massive repercussions for the businesses in the city which rely on tourism, namely pubs and restaurants, tourist attractions - here is a Failte Ireland publication on how vital foreign tourists are to jobs in Ireland and the economy https://www.failteireland.ie/FailteIreland/media/WebsiteStructure/Documents/3_Research_Insights/Key-Tourism-Facts-2018.pdf?ext=.pdf

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/just-13-of-dublin-city-hotel-rooms-booked-for-summer-1.4596600

Were it not for the fact that we're highly dependent on tourism, I'd be reaching for the small violin.... some hoteliers could do with a swift kick up the arse... hotel prices in the city pre covid were obscene.

coolshannagh28

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

Yes, it will be linked to the US again. Just look at our recovery, it has relied on US MNCs and US institutional investors to employ people in Ireland and hoover up our distressed assets. This is why it is useful to read what happens there in order to appreciate the risks appropriate to Ireland, moreso than to monitor what is happening in other EU countries anyway. At the same time, it is totally out of the hands of those of us commenting here on Boards so is sort of like plane or bird watching, it is just a hobby interest to follow and discuss.

One thing I read in the last week was related to the institutionals being reluctant to drop rents, which we understand is linked to book values of the assets, how drops in asset values could trigger breaches of covenants in finance arrangements related to those assets, which of course could lead to forced asset sales by the lenders. The Central Bank also mentioned this in its risk report; the risk of asset fire sales and its impact on the property market. Liquidity and easy money is there until isn't.

Short story long, what happens in the US is extremely relevant to Ireland and not so much what happens in other EU countries.

Agree, QE has created a bubble in the US and my simple understanding of QE is that you print money and maintain you can back it up with output , this will work until your bluff is called or some unforeseen circumstance breaks confidence . We are getting closer to this point as we do in every cycle; this time its not different.

Amadan Dubh

FromADistance wrote: »

Were it not for the fact that we're highly dependent on tourism, I'd be reaching for the small violin.... some hoteliers could do with a swift kick up the arse... hotel prices in the city pre covid were obscene.

300+ properties available on Airbnb for this weekend (Friday to Sunday) for a couple, if they wanted to go away. Does that get the tiny violin?

Marius34

Villa05 wrote: »

That's hardly surprising as output of new homes has been suppressed for most of the last decade.

In the early years of the recovery, there were numerous stories on here of sales falling through as banks were bundling properties for sale to investment funds rather than proceed with sale to individuals.
This has evolved to investment funds dominating the new build market, despite the grants available to FTB s. The introduction of shared ownership of in this environment will be disastrous for affordability. It's akin to watching the fire brigade connecting their hoses to a petrol reservoir to put out the fire in your home

This is happening while multiple red flags of a bubble are flying in markets this economy are exposed to mainly US and UK

This mess is avoidable but we seem to be insistent on walking into traps that have caught us before. Madness!

And here is the problem I'm saying, there are to small number of new builds, to make a major impact, regardless of REIT's involvement.
FTB/STB are still dominating the market, and the price highly depends on them. With current low new build supply, it's quite clear, that if demands from FTB/STB goes down, prices will go down, if demands goes up, prices will go up.

coolshannagh28

Marius34 wrote: »

And here is the problem I'm saying, there are to small number of new builds, to make a major impact, regardless of REIT's involvement.
FTB/STB are still dominating the market, and the price highly depends on them. With current low new build supply, it's quite clear, that if demands from FTB/STB goes down, prices will go down, if demands goes up, prices will go up.

IMO prices are backstopped by REITs and funds , they are hugely active in the market and price or capital is not and issue with them .Ireland is a tiny market and they are monopolising it , the higher they can drive prices the higher book value they can place on the assets .

Marius34

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

IMO prices are backstopped by REITs and funds , they are hugely active in the market and price or capital is not and issue with them .Ireland is a tiny market and they are monopolising it , the higher they can drive prices the higher book value they can place on the assets .

REITs main focus is not property book value, but Rental profits. The cheaper the property, the higher the rents, the more investment you can expect from REITs.

timmyntc

Marius34 wrote: »

REITs main focus is not property book value, but Rental profits. The cheaper the property, the higher the rents, the more investment you can expect from REITs.

Yes, but if property value begins to fall after they have invested in property - it hurts them a lot, and they may look to sell rather than potentially lose even more.

Marius34

timmyntc wrote: »

Yes, but if property value begins to fall after they have invested in property - it hurts them a lot, and they may look to sell rather than potentially lose even more.

It's more of a Rental price, not property value. If Rents doesn't fall as much as property price, they maybe happy to hold on.
And again, if you think REIT's control the price, why would they fall. My point is that it's not REIT's that controls the price, but demands from physical people has a way bigger impact on the price.

enricoh

Time Ireland got it's house in order n get it's competitiveness back. Pascals 2 billion hit may be just the start of it, according to the article below.
Note to government - outbidding ordinary punters on houses and signing 25 year leases on the dearest apartments you can find does not increase competitiveness!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/europe-has-done-a-number-on-the-irish-corporate-tax-rate-1.4596332?mode=amp

timmyntc

Marius34 wrote: »

It's more of a Rental price, not property value. If Rents doesn't fall as much as property price, they maybe happy to hold on.
And again, if you think REIT's control the price, why would they fall. My point is that it's not REIT's that controls the price, but demands from physical people has a way bigger impact on the price.

They dont control the price, but they are one of several large players in the market.

They see property as an investment - you pay the principle (sale price) and then collect the interest (rent price). The investment is the total of both.
If the sale price drops enough, it can erode the entire gain you get from rent, leaving you with a ROI of <0%. At some stage in the future they will seek to sell to realise their full investment - so are reliant on the sale price not dropping hugely by that time.

Unlike homeowners, investors will sell if they dont have confidence in prices (i.e. they think they are going to drop significantly).
And the sale prices are tied to the rent prices too, as rents set the yield you can get for a certain price. The big question is what will cause rents to fall.

Marius34

timmyntc wrote: »

They dont control the price, but they are one of several large players in the market.

They see property as an investment - you pay the principle (sale price) and then collect the interest (rent price). The investment is the total of both.
If the sale price drops enough, it can erode the entire gain you get from rent, leaving you with a ROI of <0%. At some stage in the future they will seek to sell to realise their full investment - so are reliant on the sale price not dropping hugely by that time.

Unlike homeowners, investors will sell if they dont have confidence in prices (i.e. they think they are going to drop significantly).
And the sale prices are tied to the rent prices too, as rents set the yield you can get for a certain price. The big question is what will cause rents to fall.

Yes, it's fair point, they are a large players. And it appears there will be lots of demands from them in coming years.
For the rents to fall, there are many things that could happen, but as of now it doesn't look like there will be any significant drop in coming years.

jill_valentine

FromADistance wrote: »

Were it not for the fact that we're highly dependent on tourism, I'd be reaching for the small violin.... some hoteliers could do with a swift kick up the arse... hotel prices in the city pre covid were obscene.

Good thing we've been spending so much of our building capacity building them the last few years eh?

timmyntc

Marius34 wrote: »

Yes, it's fair point, they are a large players. And it appears there will be lots of demands from them in coming years.
For the rents to fall, there are many things that could happen, but as of now it doesn't look like there will be any significant drop in coming years.

Yes I agree - short of mass emigration or the govt pulling the plug on HAP and social leasing entirely, I cannot see rents dropping significantly for a long time.

Just pointing out that if something were to happen (such as start of rent decrease) it could spook investors who may look to offload quite a lot of their property in advance of the prices tanking.

Thats the only scenario house prices would drop a lot, because homeowners wont sell up en-mass. It would have to come from the investor portion of the market.

am_zarathustra

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

Yes, for individual borrowers it looks like they are protected from themselves! Maybe some interest rate rises adding a couple hundred to mortgage interest repayments might also be sustainable. I just hope that the State (capital S) won't somehow put the Irish taxpayer on the hook for any crash which predominantly harms the institutional investors (e.g. reckless 20/25 year social housing leases at 90% market rents requiring property taxes to steadily be increased).

REITs shouldn't be backed by the government in the same way institutional banks or bonds were forced to be. You'd hope any government learned their lesson from that.

I do think there is a disconnect in the general public, due to poor numeracy when it comes to small percentages over a large periods of time. If you asked most people what a 1% change in interest rates would do to their mortgage they would struggle to tell you, even though its written on mortgage documents now. Outside of the new Finance Ireland 10/15/20 year fixed rates or the councils magic 2% for life most people are fixed for 2-5 years at a time. The strict rules, as you rightly said, protect people from themselves.

I'm actually against most exemptions on anything but guaranteed grounds, which would be a tiny percent. Interest rates will rise, and faster than expected if the eastern europe continues the way its going. Brokers try and give them to you if you fit certain parameters and I'd have some concerns about that.

The state needs to build fundamentally. I think a protest vote is coming. People I know who would have voted down the list to put Sinn Fein last a decade ago are talking about being forced to vote for them just to change something. We aren't Germany, there is always a sense of uncertainty around renting in Ireland, historically we carry scars and those scars may cause a massive upset in the next election. Unlikely we can get out of those 20/25 year leases though so in some way, shape or form REITs are unlikely to go anywhere.

Hubertj

jill_valentine wrote: »

Good thing we've been spending so much of our building capacity building them the last few years eh?

That was the challenge. More offices were required to support increased employment, more hotels were required due to increased tourism and business travel, more homes were/are required to support a growing population. The ability to increase capacity to build was difficult. Reliance on immigration meant an increased demand for housing and so on and so on. And then some geniuses blame the housing shortage on immigrants…

Browney7

Courtesy of Crazy House Prices...

https://eddempsey.ie/Residential-Property/9-Fortfield-Terrace-Rathmines-Dublin-6/136&ser=1

<1400 sq foot, latest bid 938k. Original asking 695k. Is it sitting atop a deposit of precious metals?

AlmightyCushion

https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/new-rules-will-mean-only-social-and-affordable-housing-for-public-lands-in-dublin-and-cork-4b0af282

So the squeezed middle get shafted yet again. If you are a single person earning over €58,000 a year or a couple earning over €75,000 a year then though tits, no housing for you.

theboringfox

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/new-rules-will-mean-only-social-and-affordable-housing-for-public-lands-in-dublin-and-cork-4b0af282

So the squeezed middle get shafted yet again. If you are a single person earning over €58,000 a year or a couple earning over €75,000 a year then though tits, no housing for you.

Nothing new there sadly. Always the way.

AlmightyCushion

theboringfox wrote: »

Nothing new there sadly. Always the way.

I guess it is a case of the squeaky wheel getting the oil. We don't protest and we don't have any parties screaming over issues that affect us either so we get ignored.

Hubertj

Browney7 wrote: »

Courtesy of Crazy House Prices...

https://eddempsey.ie/Residential-Property/9-Fortfield-Terrace-Rathmines-Dublin-6/136&ser=1

<1400 sq foot, latest bid 938k. Original asking 695k. Is it sitting atop a deposit of precious metals?

Wow. It’s a nice quiet road and the house does have a lot of potential - what would be the cost to extend and modernise?

awec

Browney7 wrote: »

Courtesy of Crazy House Prices...

https://eddempsey.ie/Residential-Property/9-Fortfield-Terrace-Rathmines-Dublin-6/136&ser=1

<1400 sq foot, latest bid 938k. Original asking 695k. Is it sitting atop a deposit of precious metals?

No real experience of Rathmines market but this seems low for what it is in that location.

Marius34

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/new-rules-will-mean-only-social-and-affordable-housing-for-public-lands-in-dublin-and-cork-4b0af282

So the squeezed middle get shafted yet again. If you are a single person earning over €58,000 a year or a couple earning over €75,000 a year then though tits, no housing for you.

It does sound bad news for middle class. Especially for families on 75K-100K incomes.
There maybe shift in policy, thus construction companies start looking for profits for public projects on public lands, leaving less capacity for private market.
The high end may have less impact, as those are in different locations, different style of developments.

Browney7

awec wrote: »

No real experience of Rathmines market but this seems low for what it is in that location.

Latest bid is 950k. Clearly several people with warchests want it!

Villa05

javaboy wrote:

These “bubbles†are not comparable. For the most part, builders have no problem selling what they build even at the current prices. When prices rise, I don’t expect them to struggle to sell them either.

Was that not the case in 06/07 also

javaboy wrote:

There are loads of mortgage approved buyers out there clamouring for houses. Due to the central bank lending limits and the more risk averse mid-COVID lending from banks, these buyers are unlikely to default.

Default is a result of job loss rather than a small reduction in income

Amadan Dubh wrote:

Aparthotels, student accommodation, co-living, office buildings and hotels are our 10s ghost estates in Dublin. Pretty dire outlook for Dublin city hotels for the summer season.

Have we any idea how many hotel rooms were taken by Dublin councils pre covid for homeless?

coolshannagh28 wrote:

This time despite efforts to outsource risk.

Good General Post but, I'm puzzled that this commentary has become almost gospel.
We have not outsourced risk, the risk is firmly on the taxpayer when they underwrite many of these developments with long term Leasing

Hubertj

awec wrote: »

No real experience of Rathmines market but this seems low for what it is in that location.

It’s Dartry really

am_zarathustra

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/new-rules-will-mean-only-social-and-affordable-housing-for-public-lands-in-dublin-and-cork-4b0af282

So the squeezed middle get shafted yet again. If you are a single person earning over €58,000 a year or a couple earning over €75,000 a year then though tits, no housing for you.

Essentially all the middle class worker will be in the commuter towns. This will damage the social fabric of the city. Without a middle class grouping schools will become even more polarized in the city. It's bad enough now. Most schools are already struggling for teachers, very few stay long term, hospitals have very few nurses staying and doing 10 years or more, most of the guards live miles out (a disaster if there was ever a real emergency that required all hands on deck). The city will become what other cities have already fallen into, rich and poor ghettos with life expectancies (education, medical, social) from each adjusted accordingly.

I'm all for building social housing, its vital for the state but affordable can mean lots of things. Townlands etc function better when the public and civil servants live in the areas they are serving. They earn too much for some areas and too little for other areas. There is a tipping point in everything and social cohesion is a very complicated thing that can't be fixed by populist grand gestures with no thought for the future.....that's what got us here.

I really do love Ireland but sometimes I wonder why given responsible adults tend to be punished.

am_zarathustra

Villa05 wrote: »

Was that not the case in 06/07 also

No, not really. There was an over supply and developers used very aggressive tactics to get buyers on board......free cars, subbed furniture, holidays .......the car one always seemed mad.

People were having a look at houses, rocking up to the bank asking for 4/5/6 times there income and being handed keys within weeks. I'd be jealous if it didn't lead to such hardship for a lot of these people.

yagan

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Essentially all the middle class worker will be in the commuter towns. This will damage the social fabric of the city. Without a middle class grouping schools will become even more polarized in the city. It's bad enough now. Most schools are already struggling for teachers, very few stay long term, hospitals have very few nurses staying and doing 10 years or more, most of the guards live miles out (a disaster if there was ever a real emergency that required all hands on deck). The city will become what other cities have already fallen into, rich and poor ghettos with life expectancies (education, medical, social) from each adjusted accordingly.

I'm all for building social housing, its vital for the state but affordable can mean lots of things. Townlands etc function better when the public and civil servants live in the areas they are serving. They earn too much for some areas and too little for other areas. There is a tipping point in everything and social cohesion is a very complicated thing that can't be fixed by populist grand gestures with no thought for the future.....that's what got us here.

I really do love Ireland but sometimes I wonder why given responsible adults tend to be punished.

We were never an urban society to begin with so every policy has been geared towards a town community mentality, which actually has its advantages if you've ever lived in a megapolis.

In some countries it's the cities that benefit at the expense of everyone else. I wouldn't cite Singapore in that as it's a city nation.

Remote is a reality now and cities around the world are going to lose out to it, which is no harm considering how the pandemic ripped through high density.

Villa05

Marius34 wrote:

And here is the problem I'm saying, there are to small number of new builds, to make a major impact, regardless of REIT's involvement. FTB/STB are still dominating the market, and the price highly depends on them. With current low new build supply, it's quite clear, that if demands from FTB/STB goes down, prices will go down, if demands goes up, prices will go up.

Couple of points
Circa 14,000 units in one year is not small.
We also know from the apartment building in Tralee referenced earlier in the thread that investment funds are also active in the second hand market.

Would you agree that investment funds are most active in High demand areas thereby pushing out potential buyers who work in that area. Those potential buyers push out people in the area they migrate to. This creates a ripple effect in that every area becomes overpriced for the makeup of their local economy.

Killian woods stated that both the state and investment funds will outbid any ftb by 10's of thousands meaning that if they want a development they'll get it no matter what. Killian would have the market well researched judging by his output on the subject on the Sunday business post

Marius34

Villa05 wrote: »

Couple of points
Circa 14,000 units in one year is not small.
We also know from the apartment building in Tralee referenced earlier in the thread that investment funds are also active in the second hand market.

Would you agree that investment funds are most active in High demand areas thereby pushing out potential buyers who work in that area. Those potential buyers push out people in the area they migrate to. This creates a ripple effect in that every area becomes overpriced for the makeup of their local economy.

Killian woods stated that both the state and investment funds will outbid any ftb by 10's of thousands meaning that if they want a development they'll get it no matter what. Killian would have the market well researched judging by his output on the subject on the Sunday business post

What is 14.000? That's not the number of REIT's properties.
Note there are around 60K units sold a year, with over 20K for FTB alone. With majority of second hand homes.

DataDude

awec wrote: »

No real experience of Rathmines market but this seems low for what it is in that location.

Agreed. The EA selling that that operates that way, have seen a number advertised similarly. It's an auction style starting point rather than an asking price. €695k for that was clearly never even in the ballpark of what it would sell for.

Villa05

Marius34 wrote:

It's more of a Rental price, not property value. If Rents doesn't fall as much as property price, they maybe happy to hold on. And again, if you think REIT's control the price, why would they fall. My point is that it's not REIT's that controls the price, but demands from physical people has a way bigger impact on the price.

Would some of the highest rents in the highest demand areas paid by the state for the lowest earners be a solid foundation for rent price stability?

Marius34

Villa05 wrote: »

Would some of the highest rents in the highest demand areas paid by the state for the lowest earners be a solid foundation for rent price stability?

No

Hubertj

DataDude wrote: »

Agreed. The EA selling that that operates that way, have seen a number advertised similarly. It's an auction style starting point rather than an asking price. €695k for that was clearly never even in the ballpark of what it would sell for.

A similar house in much better condition sold for 1.155 in 2018.

If this house goes for €900k ish how much to have it done proper is the question.

Browney7

Hubertj wrote: »

A similar house in much better condition sold for 1.155 in 2018.

If this house goes for €900k ish how much to have it done proper is the question.

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/124-leeson-street-upper-donnybrook-dublin-4-d04v4p6/4505436

It makes this place look a bargain!

Hubertj

Browney7 wrote: »

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/124-leeson-street-upper-donnybrook-dublin-4-d04v4p6/4505436

It makes this place look a bargain!

It’s a shame that those houses on the “island” have no gardens. My friend lived in 1 for a year and the garden was even smaller. Family home with no garden not ideal

DataDude

Hubertj wrote: »

A similar house in much better condition sold for 1.155 in 2018.

If this house goes for €900k ish how much to have it done proper is the question.

Doesn't look in terrible shape to my untrained eye. I'd guess €200k and you'd have it in great nick. Would start getting pricey if you wanted to extend as well, which I'm assuming the buyer will.

Browney7

DataDude wrote: »

Doesn't look in terrible shape to my untrained eye. I'd guess €200k and you'd have it in great nick. Would start getting pricey if you wanted to extend as well, which I'm assuming the buyer will.

I had 200k to retrofit and finish what's there which is probably low in the current climate. If you were doing a Dermot Bannon box out the back it would be what, another 100k? Planning issues likely too you'd expect unless you kept it small

DataDude

Browney7 wrote: »

I had 200k to retrofit and finish what's there which is probably low in the current climate. If you were doing a Dermot Bannon box out the back it would be what, another 100k? Planning issues likely too you'd expect unless you kept it small

I'm not so sure on €100k for any sort of extension unless it really was tiny. You'd also want to square off the house by building over the garage (quick scan of the street and seems most have done this).

My guess would be that most people bidding on that are probably budgeting another €400k-€500k to retrofit and extend. It would be really incredible once done though with a large south facing garden in Rathmines/Dartry. I've seen worse value houses out there!

Hubertj

DataDude wrote: »

I'm not so sure on €100k for any sort of extension unless it really was tiny. You'd also want to square off the house by building over the garage (quick scan of the street and seems most have done this).

My guess would be that most people bidding on that are probably budgeting another €400k-€500k to retrofit and extend. It would be really incredible once done though with a large south facing garden in Rathmines/Dartry. I've seen worse value houses out there!

There ya go with the garden again!!

cnocbui

Hubertj wrote: »

There ya go with the garden again!!

I'm tempted to put on my Akubra and Paul hogan accent and say: 'That's not a garden? That's a garden', and then post a pic.

Villa05

AlmightyCushion wrote:

So the squeezed middle get shafted yet again. If you are a single person earning over €58,000 a year or a couple earning over €75,000 a year then though tits, no housing for you.

I believe those limits were set in 2011, I'd expect change soon, but not holding my breath

Cyrus

Hubertj wrote: »

There ya go with the garden again!!

after location location location its aspect aspect aspect :cool:

cnocbui

Ireland, the European home of tech giants like Apple and Google, is looking to reach a compromise over global taxation that recognizes “the role of legitimate tax competition,” the country’s finance minister told CNBC on Friday.
...

“What we are going to do is engage in the OECD process very intensely across the coming weeks and months, and I do hope an agreement can be reached that does recognize the role of legitimate tax competition for smaller and medium-sized economies,” Irish Finance Minister Paschal Donohoe told CNBC.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/18/ireland-wants-a-compromise-on-bidens-15percent-global-tax-plan.html

This is actually a really cunning plan - embarrass the MNCs so much for operating in such a joke of a country that they up sticks and leave for a country run by adults, not cargo cultists with bones through their noes. This will free up a ton of houses in Dublin and the prices might even fall.

Worthy of Blackadder.