Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955252#Comment_120955252

People have said this about estate agents for ages, as if it's not really worth their while engaging in the dark arts just to whittle out a few hundred euro more in commission. But you said it there yourself. If they can raise the asking price average over a number of houses these figures soon add up and of course if you are selling a house in an estate the last house sold, in many instances sets the asking price of the next in the same estate.

Now, I wouldn't be blaming them for the housing crisis but make no mistake our sales and conveyancing process are archaic, rife for abuse and beyond ridiculous in all instances which don't assist with the situation.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120927043#Comment_120927043

That's an interesting perspective. I hear it a lot, and there's some truth to it.

Apparently 40% of their workforce is based in India. But from googling this, I'm struggling to see how many Indian employees have been let go in these cuts.

These global cut-backs seem to have been reported in the Indian media, mostly from the March/April period (when the 400 irish jobs cut was announced) , there are concerns etc, but no job loss news. The Irish job cuts did actually make the news in India though.

In fact, from googling this further, I get the impression that they are hiring in India.

After laying off 19000 employees, Accenture hiring for multiple job roles - India Today

After Mass Layoffs, Accenture Plans To Double AI Workforce: Report (outlookindia.com)

After SACKING 19,000 Employees, Accenture Takes BIG Decision. DEETS HERE | Companies News, Times Now (timesnownews.com)

There is certainly the trend of tech over hiring. But this also ignores the "offshoring" of jobs which continues and gathers pace as large companies make it their default policy.

Analysis: As more U.S. audit work moves to India, concerns arise | Reuters

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955128#Comment_120955128

They've capped it not removed/reversed it

Bakharwaldog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955287#Comment_120955287

On top of that if an EA can tell a potential seller that they are consistently getting 10/15/20% over asking price it is a very good way to get more business. Which leads to more commission down the line.

Some Estate Agents also take a much higher commission (10% for example) on anything they get above market value. So pumping numbers could be a lot more lucrative in those instances.

https://ckp.ie/faq/how-much-does-an-estate-agent-cost/

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955287#Comment_120955287

In most cases the highest bidder wins, what is archaic about that?

We usually hear this kind of crap from disaffected buyers, but when it comes to the same person selling their house, it’s a case of show me the money.

Ozark707

IR increases now being felt more and more.

“The average rate is now almost 1.5 percentage points higher than it was near the end of last year. But since these figures were compiled we’ve seen yet more rate hikes from all the main lenders, meaning the average rate for someone applying for a mortgage today is closer to 4.5 per cent or 4.75 per cent,” he said.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/08/09/irish-mortgage-rates-shoot-over-4-as-squeeze-on-borrowers-tightens/

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956357#Comment_120956357

What's archaic about conveyancing and the bidding system we have?

Seriously?

I don't want to derail this thread anymore than it is already so would suggest a whole new thread is required.

I am have both been a buyer and a seller and don't believe the structures in place are in anyway for for purpose.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120958592#Comment_120958592

Yip, seriously.

Do you want to deviate from a system where the market sets the price, whomever is willing to pay most gets the property, and transfer of ownership is via a legal instrument?

What have you in mind?

timmyntc

https://www.businesspost.ie/news/average-rent-in-ireland-now-e1800-per-month-after-10-7-rise-in-a-year/

Who could have seen this coming? Who would have known that rent caps do not work? /s

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120958893#Comment_120958893

I presume poster has issue with lack of transparency arounds bids and the large and prolonged (and expensive) legal effort involved in property conveyancing.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120959128#Comment_120959128

I know. What a shocker. Its not like they didnt have l;ots of other examples to look at before they went down that road. And then when it wasnt working they kept making it worse, instead of again looking at what didnt work everywhere else.

But at least now the world has Ireland to look at when they want a lesson in rent controls and market interferance.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120959160#Comment_120959160

When people talk about transparency of bids, what exactly are you looking for? Do you want the names of bidders to be published?

In relation to conveyancing, this is the largest, most important purchase most of us will make in our lifetime, which part do you want left out/streamlined?

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120959943#Comment_120959943

Buying a house shouldn't take 3-6 months, its completely ludicrous.

Brock Turnpike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120959943#Comment_120959943

Nobody is asking for the names of people they are bidding against. You are deliberately avoiding the actual point being made.

EAs should not be handling the bidding imo. It should be handled via an independent, regulated, third party.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/housing-planning/2023/08/10/most-landlords-issuing-notices-to-quit-cite-selling-as-the-reason-rtb/

More landlords offload properties

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120960419#Comment_120960419

Best thing I ever did tbh.

wassie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120959966#Comment_120959966

Conveyancing in this country takes a long time because many aspects are still performed manually. Change is coming albeit very slowly.

Electronic conveyancing, or e-Conveyancing can reduce this time significantly. It refers to settling a conveyancing transaction through an electronic lodgement network operator to which all stakeholders can access (solictors, conveyancers, banks, clients etc). Settlement can all be done virtually and without the need to all be simultaneously present.

Its sounds straightforward, but requires a) legislation and b) an exchange system to be developed, both of which can take years. My understanding this has been under development for many years but we are still waiting for the government to progress.

The other issue is that many tasks performed are administrative in nature and can be done by less qualified people besides solicitors, especially for bog standard residential housing. Other countries allow for this and I believe the Dept of Justice is still reviewing proposals allow for a formal title ‘professional conveyancer’ with the view to cut legal fees and speed up processing times. I don't know how far along this process is - hopefully someone more informed than me can update us.

I recall in Aus they moved an electronic converyancing system over 5 years ago and the average time from sale agreed to settlement is around 1-3 months.

So yes, our system can be significantly improved.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120960391#Comment_120960391

What point are you making?

What third party, and what stops sellers getting confidants to lodge bids with a third party, therefore pushing up prices?

If you want to make a point, at least make it coherently.

Villa05

Heads you loose, tails you loose, such is our current financial system. Could be a very violent end when the populace understands how entrenched it is

https://twitter.com/NorthmanTrader/status/1689624685552504832?t=03TVdjPu3rHqQDEX0q7KLA&s=19

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120960710#Comment_120960710

Right now if an EA were to tell you the current bid is X, you have no way to prove that it is. The entire bidding process is ad hoc and varies massively from agent to agent. As you said yourself this is the largest and most important purchase many of us make in our lives, why wouldnt you want a fair and transparent bidding process to eliminate the potential for fraud from a cowboy agent?

wassie

Again, I remember in one state in Aus that they sold property by a very straight forward Offer & Acceptance process.

It worked that buyer had to make a formal written offer to the vendor or their agent. Typically the EA writes up the offer and it is presented to the sellor/vendor. The vendor can either make a counter offer, reject the offer, or accept it and communicate that acceptance to the buyer.

The agent can present multiple offers and when the seller agrees, they simply sign the offer. This forms a contract and then is binding. It eliminates 'gazumping' or either party withdrawing without reason before and the exchanging of contracts.

The offer is on a standard form with standard T&Cs that the offer is subject to which includes typical requirements such due diligence, inspections, chattels, planning, finance etc. The buyer (and seller with a counter offer) are free to add any non-standard condition that the offer is subject to also.

As it is a contract, it binding and legally enforceable if either party fails to perform under the contract. Although there no fault provisions built in also that prevent the sale progressing allowing the contract to be terminated, such as inability to obtain finance or an adverse title issue that was not known at the time of acceptance.

EAs are legally obliged to present all offers to the vendor. Also, because all bids had to be in writing, if a buyer suspects they are up against dummy bidding, they can simply ask to see a copy of the written offer. If an agent cant produce such, then they are breaking the law. There are occasionally cases of EAs there being fined and losing their registration as a result of producing fake offers.

I find we are so accepting of things being done a certain way in this country. I don't believe dummy bidding is widespread, but the process is opaque and hence open to fraudulent behavior.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120960773#Comment_120960773

What is the fairer way?

For years people have been posting about fake/phantom bids, usually after they missed on on a property, yet to my knowledge no one has ever provided proof it happens.

Regularly people post on boards about their unhappiness with being asked to show proof of funds to support a bid, yet that to me seems entirely reasonable, Also, I suspect buyers regularly bid on more than one property, should that be prevented in order to stop buyers driving up prices on multiple properties at the same time?

I really don’t get why people are so hung up about EAs, if you don’t trust them, don’t trust them, they don’t work for you when you bid on a property. They are engaged to sell for the highest price, their motives are as transparent as it gets.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120960940#Comment_120960940

The fairer way is a centralised system something like Bidx1. You must put up a bidding deposit and if your bid is successful and you pull out you lose that money. If your bid is not highest your deposit is returned.

In this way timewasters and spurious bids from a mate are eliminated, and there is also no obfuscation from EAs about what current bid actually is.

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120960988#Comment_120960988

Yes and a legal SLA on the buying/selling process. Any party in breach liable for damages/costs.

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120960988#Comment_120960988

Pretty sure BidX1 is almost exclusively for cash buyers as you can’t risk being mortgaged a property where your bid is binding?

Doesn’t feel like progress to me whereby if someone loses their job towards the end of sale process, or a bank just decides to pull finance cause they feel like it, or a survey throws up a late unexpected problem that some well intending first time buyer would lose out.

To me all these suggestions, including the introduction of another paid ‘independent 3rd party’ would just add another layer and cost onto an already painful process for potential purchasers.

The vast majority of bids are genuine. The vast majority of sales that fall through do so for genuine reasons. The problem in the Irish housing market are numerous, but sale by private treaty doesn’t seem like a major one to me. It’s generally just disappointed buyers venting at anything they can direct annoyance towards.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120961053#Comment_120961053

Bidx1 also charge an admin fee to bid online which is not refundable, and the deposit on bidding can be a lot. So it costs to bid, and it is very, very costly if you don’t complete. Neither will appeal to buyers if that model became required mode to purchase property.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120961053#Comment_120961053

Wassie had a good post on how the system could be improved. Bidx1 isn't the answer but there are genuine issues with our system, not just buyers venting. It shouldn't take 6 months to complete a purchase

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120961224#Comment_120961224

Agreed on last bit but in my experience it’s not the mechanism of the bidding process which slows things down. It’s the banks and the solicitors that cause things to drag out.

These days from ‘for sale’ to ‘sale agreed’ is usually only a couple of weeks at most.

After that the estate agents are not involved really (it was complaining about estate agents where this all started)

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120961053#Comment_120961053

Any measure that improves transparency in what is typically the largest purchase of one's life is worthwhile.

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120961326#Comment_120961326

At peak bidding madness in COVID, one estate agent (Lisney I think) required all potential bidders to submit detailed proof of funds to ensure all were completely legitimate. Exactly type of transparency people crave

They got absolutely lambasted for invasion of privacy, GDPR issues were raised. It even made its way to the Dail and was commented on by the Minister for Housing. They eventually backed down.