Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

Marius34

Yurt! wrote: »

They are developed and financed by a government owned corporation. That's where the comparison with public housing as we know it ends.

And here is the point its financed/subsidies by government, and that's how they can control the price. In Singapore those pricing rules are not applied on private. So you can't implement similar to Singapore Public pricing model on Irish Private houses.

Balluba

A crash will come.
It is not sustainable for house prices to rise faster than wages.
The only question is WHEN ?

tobsey

Balluba wrote: »

A crash will come.
It is not sustainable for house prices to rise faster than wages.
The only question is WHEN ?

Why would they crash though? Would they not be maintained at the ceiling of affordability?

drogon.

Balluba wrote: »

A crash will come.
It is not sustainable for house prices to rise faster than wages.
The only question is WHEN ?

I honestly think the rental market needs to be fixed first, as long as it is cheaper to pay a mortgage rather than paying rent, people are gonna save/borrow to get on the property ladder.

Mr Hindley

drogon. wrote: »

I honestly think the rental market needs to be fixed first, as long as it is cheaper to pay a mortgage rather than paying rent, people are gonna save/borrow to get on the property ladder.

That's a fair point. As a simple example, I just moved back to Ireland from the UK for family reasons; I might stay for good, I might stay for just another couple of years before going back. In a sane property market, I'd probably rent for another year or two to work out my plans before trying to buy. But with the cost of renting vs mortgaging, and the risk of house prices spiralling even higher, I'm looking at buying, accepting that I might end up selling up again in 2-3 years. So that's another person piling into the market to buy.

keoclassic

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/55ac-residential-farm-at-the-pigeons-to-go-under-the-hammer/

275 in 219

https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/farm-property/55ac-lakeside-farm-in-longford-bounded-on-three-sides-by-a-river-is-guided-at-400000-40585234.html

400 in 2021

Interesting times.....

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

HAP is a long term disaster. Well intentioned I suppose but designed as a short term measure to paper over a housing strategy failure and has created more problems than it has solved if taken as a whole.

Giving HAP government was inflating rent prices also lifting property prices and creating shortage of the property.
Enough to remember how Reit and similar started hoovering property out of the market and rent it after.
Government never was interested in property affordability.
The main target was create inflation on property market asap and reduce banks loses were government got stakes helping them.

drogon.

https://www.thejournal.ie/mortgage-approvals-for-may-2021-5479779-Jun2021/

Looks like good times ahead for sure.

drogon.

drogon. wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/mortgage-approvals-for-may-2021-5479779-Jun2021/

Looks like good times ahead for sure.

Seeing as many buyers are also selling properties, it isn’t all bad news.

Villa05

tobsey wrote:

Why would they crash though? Would they not be maintained at the ceiling of affordability?

Revolution 1917 wrote:

Giving HAP government was inflating rent prices also lifting property prices and creating shortage of the property. Enough to remember how Reit and similar started hoovering property out of the market and rent it after. Government never was interested in property affordability. The main target was create inflation on property market asap and reduce banks loses were government got stakes helping them.

drogon. wrote:

I honestly think the rental market needs to be fixed first, as long as it is cheaper to pay a mortgage rather than paying rent, people are gonna save/borrow to get on the property ladder.

In the past month we have encountered 3 households facing notice to quit all paying rent that was at least double what we were paying in 2014.
We had no idea the stress and worry they were going through, it only came out when 1 sent out an SOS for all their contacts for help including leaving cert students in the household.

All these households have at least 1 income and face homelessness within weeks. All are fully compliant with there current rents and have been advised to dig in and not move out.

You don't realise how big the problem is until it comes to your doorstep and the people you never thought suffering from it.

hometruths

Villa05 wrote: »

In the past month we have encountered 3 households facing notice to quit all paying rent that was at least double what we were paying in 2014.
We had no idea the stress and worry they were going through, it only came out when 1 sent out an SOS for all their contacts for help including leaving cert students in the household.

All these households have at least 1 income and face homelessness within weeks. All are fully compliant with there current rents and have been advised to dig in and not move out.

You don't realise how big the problem is until it comes to your doorstep and the people you never thought suffering from it.

Been advised by who?

Villa05

Villa05 wrote: »

In the past month we have encountered 3 households facing notice to quit all paying rent that was at least double what we were paying in 2014.
We had no idea the stress and worry they were going through, it only came out when 1 sent out an SOS for all their contacts for help including leaving cert students in the household.

All these households have at least 1 income and face homelessness within weeks. All are fully compliant with there current rents and have been advised to dig in and not move out.

You don't realise how big the problem is until it comes to your doorstep and the people you never thought suffering from it.

When landlord will not get money he want he will have bring rent to level people can pay or sell the property to pay mortgage back
That how market rules work
When government support landlords happy are landlord,the bank but not person which has no money to pay
Creating HAP government created bigger problem on market

Amadan Dubh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

When landlord will not get money he want he will have bring rent to level people can pay or sell the property to pay mortgage back
That how market rules work
When government support landlords happy are landlord,the bank but not person which has no money to pay
Creating HAP government created bigger problem on market

With the RPZs, like HAP, it leads to government induced market inflation as 4% is seen as a justifiable increase to rent in a year (as I've said, as a renting worker you need to be getting at least 6/7% and probably 10% wage increases each year to justify your employment with that employer. Otherwise you're left worse off than the year before). Yet apparently inflation has been below 2%. It's a scam, genuinely, and the CPI is manipulated to read that inflation is low meaning continued QE is justified. QE is hampering economic growth by ending up in property and stocks as well as corporate debt markets which is enabling zombie corporations to lumber on. We are living in a socialist market and as a centrist and capitalist, I think it is disgraceful that the market is not allowed to correct by the government and ECB.

wassie

Marius34 wrote: »

And here is the point its financed/subsidies by government, and that's how they can control the price. In Singapore those pricing rules are not applied on private. So you can't implement similar to Singapore Public pricing model on Irish Private houses.

Reading up on HDB I'd would have to agree with this. Curiously first line on the wikipedia page of public housing in Singapore:

"Public housing in Singapore is managed by the Housing and Development Board (HDB) under a 99-year lease."

Villa05

javaboy wrote:

Again it's only a bubble if it pops. I haven't seen anyone explain where the pop is coming from and why it would be sudden? We're already being told that funds/gov are outbidding FTBs and yet the stats say FTBs drawdowns are going ahead in huge numbers:

Its either a bubble or its not. All bubbles pop

If we had an affordability crisis for the last few years, double digit percentage increases don't resolve the issue.

Most assets are in a bubble, housing appears to be the last one to enter this territory. The financial sector appears to have left this till last to allow for people to forget the lessons of the last bust.


Are they buying further and further away from their working base out of desperation to escape gouging rents. Will they be committed to this new area they have been forced to migrate to?

javaboy wrote:

I don't see the relevance. We're miles off oversupply in residential housing. Not even the optimistic predictions say we're going to meet demand any time soon. The commercial sector has entirely different dynamics not to mention the impact of COVID.

First point, it frees up labour to address supply of housing

I'm sure the commercial sector had positive dynamics when they started building. Dynamics change

Has the cost of covid been addressed? Could that change the dynamics of the ftb in the future. I read that 2 billion of the health spend on covid will be recurring every year

javaboy wrote:

Is the bolded part true outside of the public sector? Genuine question as it's not been my experience in the private sector. Not by a long shot.

Will post the full article later if you wish, but here is a quote

"Combined with the fact that earnings have stalled for young people entering the workforce in the past few years, which has left employees in their early 20s earning less in the 2010s than in the 1990s or 2000s, ESRI economist Barra Roantree said the findings “should be a cause for serious concernâ€.

Hubertj

Villa05 wrote: »

In the past month we have encountered 3 households facing notice to quit all paying rent that was at least double what we were paying in 2014.
We had no idea the stress and worry they were going through, it only came out when 1 sent out an SOS for all their contacts for help including leaving cert students in the household.

All these households have at least 1 income and face homelessness within weeks. All are fully compliant with there current rents and have been advised to dig in and not move out.

You don't realise how big the problem is until it comes to your doorstep and the people you never thought suffering from it.

Why were they given notice to quit? Is the landlord selling or other reasons? It is very unfortunate but owners of property have to be able to exercise their rights over it. Can rules be set so banks have to give a mortgage with tenants in situ? Having said that what if the purchaser wants to live in the house/apartment? Can rules be set that a house/apartment can only be rental?

Villa05

schmittel wrote:

Been advised by who?

A state sponsored housing charity to buy time to find a resolution

Hubertj

Couple of interesting discussions on Newstalk breakfast this morning. First there was a discussion on a possible referendum in Berlin which would require the local government purchase units back from funds. Some discussion around if it can be facilitated under the constitution.

Secondly a discussion on planning in Ireland and how judicial reviews for SHDs have overstepped their reach in terms of ruling on more than just procedural issues.

https://www.newstalk.com/shows/breakfast-business-234887?

Timing belt

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

With the RPZs, like HAP, it leads to government induced market inflation as 4% is seen as a justifiable increase to rent in a year (as I've said, as a renting worker you need to be getting at least 6/7% and probably 10% wage increases each year to justify your employment with that employer. Otherwise you're left worse off than the year before). Yet apparently inflation has been below 2%. It's a scam, genuinely, and the CPI is manipulated to read that inflation is low meaning continued QE is justified. QE is hampering economic growth by ending up in property and stocks as well as corporate debt markets which is enabling zombie corporations to lumber on. We are living in a socialist market and as a centrist and capitalist, I think it is disgraceful that the market is not allowed to correct by the government and ECB.

If interest rates were high enough prior to covid the central banks would have cut them and at the same time increased liquidity in the market. QE does exactly the same thing and is not hampering economic growth in fact it is having the opposite effect.

With regards RPZs and HAP yes this issue as it is keeping rents at high levels.

combat14

interesting to see stocks rattled here yesterday with more bad covid news and delayed reopenings really affecting many businesses - all is not rosy out there on the business front and wouldnt take much for many restaurants and pubs that have been holding on for the last 15 months or so to completely fold with the resultant avalanche of job losses .. if that happens the government will have to borrow more or rise taxes here more quickly than expected .. a perfect storm for anyone paying way too much for houses at the moment

Mad_maxx

I predicted a few months back that Limerick house prices would rise by 20% in 2021 , up 9% so far this year according to reports in last few days , only Drogheda up more

the market is absolutely roasting

Villa05

Mad_maxx wrote:

I predicted a few months back that Limerick house prices would rise by 20% in 2021 , up 9% so far this year according to reports in last few days , only Drogheda up more

On income, Limerick should be no different to Cork or Galway

fliball123

It would be interesting to get a take on the next 12 months? How do people see the market going? Maybe a poll?

Balluba

42 St Agnes road, Crumlin is back on the market today renovated and asking €560,000.
Did it sell for €310,000 last year??

Mad_maxx

Villa05 wrote: »

On income, Limerick should be no different to Cork or Galway

Galway has a premium for whatever reason , as recent as 2017 , Limerick was 40% cheaper than Galway city which was absurd

neither have any business being as expensive as Cork

Mad_maxx

fliball123 wrote: »

It would be interesting to get a take on the next 12 months? How do people see the market going? Maybe a poll?

SF winning an election is the only thing that can stop it

Villa05

Hubertj wrote:

Why were they given notice to quit? Is the landlord selling or other reasons? It is very unfortunate but owners of property have to be able to exercise their rights over it. Can rules be set so banks have to give a mortgage with tenants in situ? Having said that what if the purchaser wants to live in the house/apartment? Can rules be set that a house/apartment can only be rental?

In the primary case the rent is roughly 20% below the market. We suspect this is the reason.

Agreed on owners rights but for all our progress citizens are forced to break the law to survive. Are we that much different from when crimes of nesecity were punished with a one way ticket to Australia

The rent consistently paid for 8 years would easily cover with profit a new build a rated House in the area, were the gov/council/ahb to build stock.

The wage earners in the household are working in what would be considered to be essential services. It would be some irony if covid spending indirectly led to them and their children being homeless

All in this together. The hypocrisy

fliball123

Mad_maxx wrote: »

SF winning an election is the only thing that can stop it

Has anyone looking at SF being the savior actually drilled into their numbers , their promises are built on sand. When they get in it will be yet another disaster

Mad_maxx

fliball123 wrote: »

Has anyone looking at SF being the saviour actually drilled into their numbers , their promises are built on sand. When they get in it will be yet another disaster

if SF get in , it doesnt matter what they fail to deliver as they wont relinquish power once they get in

Venezuela here we come

Marius34

fliball123 wrote: »

Has anyone looking at SF being the savior actually drilled into their numbers , their promises are built on sand. When they get in it will be yet another disaster

I'm not an expert on Irish politics. But just looking on their strategies on the tax & housing, there maybe some truth, that with SF residential property prices maybe lower.
Most buyers has household income over 70K. This is likely the people that may have some sort of increase in tax, thus reducing buying power/demands. Where as FG is pushing to decrease the tax on those households over 70K, thus increasing buying power/demands.
SF higher tax may help to subsidies public housing.

fliball123

Mad_maxx wrote: »

if SF get in , it doesnt matter what they fail to deliver as they wont relinquish power once they get in

Venezuela here we come

Well you only have to look at what has happened with FF and FG they broke promises to their voting base and are being decimated (not to mentions fecking up the countries finances). I think we may see an extreme right leaning party coming into play over the next decade. The left is split and fragmented with each having a differing main headline agenda from Greens looking after the planet to SF wanting a United Ireland and then the rest squabbling about how the poor get nothing (which is no where near the truth). The landscape of Irish politics is entering a new phase and I think the sh1t will hit the fan when SF realise that you cannot beat the builders up by trying to put manners on them with penalties and taxes and then during the same conversation they will be asking them to build en-mass a sh1t load of houses. I guess they can try knee capping or kidnapping its worked for them in the past.

Dublin south has a sizeable working class population, polling shows SF well behind the leading candidates. That must surprise some supporters of their policies in relation to housing.

hometruths

fliball123 wrote: »

Has anyone looking at SF being the savior actually drilled into their numbers , their promises are built on sand. When they get in it will be yet another disaster

Which of their housing promises are built on sand?

MacronvFrugals

Mad_maxx wrote: »

if SF get in , it doesnt matter what they fail to deliver as they wont relinquish power once they get in

Venezuela here we come

Is that you Eoghan Harris?

fliball123

schmittel wrote: »

Which of their housing promises are built on sand?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/election-2020-is-sinn-f%C3%A9in-s-housing-policy-credible-1.4163859

cnocbui

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I predicted a few months back that Limerick house prices would rise by 20% in 2021 , up 9% so far this year according to reports in last few days , only Drogheda up more

the market is absolutely roasting

Suits me just fine - music to my ears.

tigger123

Dav010 wrote: »

Dublin south has a sizeable working class population, polling shows SF well behind the leading candidates. That must surprise some supporters of their policies in relation to housing.

Are you referring to the byelection?

Cyrus

Dav010 wrote: »

Dublin south has a sizeable working class population, polling shows SF well behind the leading candidates. That must surprise some supporters of their policies in relation to housing.

that is a surprise, doesnt reflect well to be that far behind a labour candidate, especially bacik.

MacronvFrugals

Cyrus wrote: »

that is a surprise, doesnt reflect well to be that far behind a labour candidate, especially bacik.

David McWiliams made this point on his latest podcast, the most affluent people in Dublin vote Labour and Green, look at how many Labour/Green TDs DBS has returned

Amadan Dubh

Dav010 wrote: »

Dublin south has a sizeable working class population, polling shows SF well behind the leading candidates. That must surprise some supporters of their policies in relation to housing.

I was a bit surprised particularly given her odds with the bookies shortening the past few weeks. But I don't put any faith in these polls. I don't think I've even met someone ever who was polled. Personally, I'm still registered in the constituency and will be voting but almost certainly not for the FF and FG candidates, they won't get a preference even. The rest of the candidates are so uninspiring as well it is so easy to just be passive in the whole thing, but housing is too important so I'll muster the effort to travel up to vote.

hometruths

fliball123 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/election-2020-is-sinn-f%C3%A9in-s-housing-policy-credible-1.4163859

Ok so the first credibility issue is:

Sinn Féin housing spokesman Eoin Ó Broin told The Irish Times that included in the 100,000 figure are 50,000 social homes, which, he says, are already committed to and budgeted for under the National Development Plan. So half of the headline figure is to be achieved before the €6.5 billion budget is touched

Fair enough, that's sharp practice to massage a headline figure. But par for the course in politics. And it's not a claim built on sand, it's a claim built on the National Development Plan.

However, the implication is still that around €6.5 billion will pay for 50,000 new homes.

One of their models is the O'Cualann development, they are claiming they will deliver 30,000 houses this way:

It works because a site is provided by the state, almost free of cost. That site is often also serviced, meaning connected to utilities, at no cost to the builder (but there is an exchequer cost). Development levies are also waived. The remainder of the development cost is provided by loans, redeemed when the homes are sold.

The net result on O’Culann land is that three-bedroom homes retail for around €220,000. Sinn Féin has budgeted a cost to the exchequer for the waived fees, the site and the services of €50,000 per unit.

SFs proposals are based on the exchequer cost not the total cost. You might argue this is somehow misleading, but the cost to the taxpayer is the most important cost in a manifesto.

They might be overly optimistic but given that the people who developed the O'Cualaan properties say it can be scaled up to provide 30k units, it is false to say the claims are built on sand.

The remaining 20,000 houses they say they will deliver for cost of 234,000 each. Is this claim built on sand?

The party has sourced the figure from a parliamentary question answered last year on the average cost of building one, two, three and four bedroom local authority new build units. According to the reply, the average all-in cost submitted by local authorities over the 12 months to April 2019 of a three bed, including VAT and non-construction elements, is €234,571.

They're costing using the Dept of Housing figures. It's worth noting that the construction costs of a 3 bed were actually €184,685

So that claim is not built on sand either. It's "based on the analysis of returned data from tendered social housing schemes over an extended period"

I totally agree it is wise to have a healthy skepticism concerning the costings of political parties' election promises, but to simply dismiss them as utter fantasies is completely misguided, and in many cases, completely disingenuous.

hometruths

Villa05 wrote: »

In the primary case the rent is roughly 20% below the market. We suspect this is the reason.

Agreed on owners rights but for all our progress citizens are forced to break the law to survive. Are we that much different from when crimes of nesecity were punished with a one way ticket to Australia

In this case do you think landlord would be happy for them to remain if they were paying market rent? And would tenants be willing/able to pay market rent?

fliball123

schmittel wrote: »

Ok so the first credibility issue is:



Fair enough, that's sharp practice to massage a headline figure. But par for the course in politics. And it's not a claim built on sand, it's a claim built on the National Development Plan.



One of their models is the O'Cualann development, they are claiming they will deliver 30,000 houses this way:



SFs proposals are based on the exchequer cost not the total cost. You might argue this is somehow misleading, but the cost to the taxpayer is the most important cost in a manifesto.

They might be overly optimistic but given that the people who developed the O'Cualaan properties say it can be scaled up to provide 30k units, it is false to say the claims are built on sand.

The remaining 20,000 houses they say they will deliver for cost of 234,000 each. Is this claim built on sand?



They're costing using the Dept of Housing figures. It's worth noting that the construction costs of a 3 bed were actually €184,685

So that claim is not built on sand either. It's "based on the analysis of returned data from tendered social housing schemes over an extended period"

I totally agree it is wise to have a healthy skepticism concerning the costings of political parties' election promises, but to simply dismiss them as utter fantasies is completely misguided, and in many cases, completely disingenuous.

Look if they do even 50% of what they are promising without phucking over the income tax payer they will have done well in my book. I just dont see there being a change there is absolutely zero accountability and zero punishment when a party get into power shout from the rafters what they will do and then they do nothing and walk away with a nice pension and a handy number making speeches around the different circuits or back into the party on the back bench twiddling and picking up more money from the tax payer.. Until that changes nothing will. I wont be voting in the next election as the deck is stacked in favor of politicians interests and not what they promise. If SF manage 50% of what they promise I will vote for them in the following one. Your statement that we should be skeptical is an understatement. No government in the last 20/25 year has put the people ahead of their own wants , needs and other vested interests. Will SF be any different. A look back at their own history would suggest no and you can also look to the north where they are in power to see this as well. The below links are a small snapshot and not one have to do with any dealing with the IRA.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40077536.html

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/alban-maginness/another-scandal-for-sinn-fein-and-this-one-cant-just-be-disappeared-39703865.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/old-question-of-who-pulls-the-strings-comes-back-to-haunt-sinn-f%C3%A9in-1.4163060

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-pay-scandal-spoils-new-leaders-big-day-36512228.html

https://extra.ie/2020/12/07/news/politics/taoiseach-takes-aim-sinn-fein-intimidation

https://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-td-urged-to-come-clean-over-e50000-use-of-dail-printer-cartridges-367908-Feb2012/

https://www.portadowntimes.co.uk/news/politics/sinn-fein-official-lurgan-caught-support-fund-scandal-3019959

https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/09/07/how-sinn-fein-colluded-with-the-dup-to-keep-rhi-crisis-secret-from-executive-colleagues/

wassie

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the market is absolutely roasting

cnocbui wrote: »

Suits me just fine - music to my ears.

The flip side of the 'affordability' coin.

hometruths

fliball123 wrote: »

Look if they do even 50% of what they are promising without phucking over the income tax payer they will have done well in my book. I just dont see there being a change there is absolutely zero accountability and zero punishment when a party get into power shout from the rafters what they will do and then they do nothing and walk away with a nice pension and a handy number making speeches around the different circuits or back into the party on the back bench twiddling and picking up more money from the tax payer.. Until that changes nothing will. I wont be voting in the next election as the deck is stacked in favor of politicians interests and not what they promise. If SF manage 50% of what they promise I will vote for them in the following one. Your statement that we should be skeptical is an understatement. No government in the last 20/25 year has put the people ahead of their own wants , needs and other vested interests. Will SF be any different. A look back at their own history would suggest no and you can also look to the north where they are in power to see this as well. The below links are a small snapshot and not one have to do with any dealing with the IRA.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40077536.html

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/alban-maginness/another-scandal-for-sinn-fein-and-this-one-cant-just-be-disappeared-39703865.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/old-question-of-who-pulls-the-strings-comes-back-to-haunt-sinn-f%C3%A9in-1.4163060

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-pay-scandal-spoils-new-leaders-big-day-36512228.html

https://extra.ie/2020/12/07/news/politics/taoiseach-takes-aim-sinn-fein-intimidation

https://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-td-urged-to-come-clean-over-e50000-use-of-dail-printer-cartridges-367908-Feb2012/

https://www.portadowntimes.co.uk/news/politics/sinn-fein-official-lurgan-caught-support-fund-scandal-3019959

https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/09/07/how-sinn-fein-colluded-with-the-dup-to-keep-rhi-crisis-secret-from-executive-colleagues/

All of the above has nothing to do with the fact that it is utter nonsense to claim their housing promises are built on sand.

I completely understand why people would not vote for SF, but the idea that the Aengus Ó Snodaigh's use of ink cartridges calls SF's housing costings into question is absurd.

fliball123

schmittel wrote: »

All of the above has nothing to do with the fact that it is utter nonsense to claim their housing promises are built on sand.

I completely understand why people would not vote for SF, but the idea that the Aengus Ó Snodaigh's use of ink cartridges calls SF's housing costings into question is absurd.

The above links go against their credibility I also did not put any of the thousands of links between them and the IRA up. Like I say they will most likely get into power and they are getting in on their housing policy I guess we will just have to wait and see who is right in 6/7/8 years time and just so we are on the same page this is one argument I will be very very happy to lose

Villa05

schmittel wrote:

In this case do you think landlord would be happy for them to remain if they were paying market rent? And would tenants be willing/able to pay market rent?

Bridge too far, many rentals are not advertised anymore hence there plea to try and find something outside the normal channels

hometruths

fliball123 wrote: »

The above links go against their credibility I also did not put any of the thousands of links between them and the IRA up. Like I say they will most likely get into power and they are getting in on their housing policy I guess we will just have to wait and see who is right in 6/7/8 years time and just so we are on the same page this is one argument I will be very very happy to lose

The Sinn Fein IRA thread is in Current Affairs.

We don't need to wait 6/7/8 years to see who is right or wrong regarding your claim their housing policies are built on sand. The IT article you linked proves that right now.

fliball123

schmittel wrote: »

The Sinn Fein IRA thread is in Current Affairs.

We don't need to wait 6/7/8 years to see who is right or wrong regarding your claim their housing policies are built on sand. The IT article you linked proves that right now.

Sorry we do have to wait as Sinn Fein up until now have build zero houses lets see how they do when they get in.

hometruths

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry we do have to wait as Sinn Fein up until now have build zero houses lets see how they do when they get in.

You claimed the promises were built on sand and then linked to an IT article in which to back up that claim.

That article states exactly how their housing promises have been costed - on houses that have already been built.

Your claim was wrong. We can see that right now. Very clearly.