Buying to let an apartment in Dublin Citywest - Carrigmore Crescent

DubCount

As someone who doesn't even live in Ireland, why pick Dublin as the spot to buy a rental property?

Ireland has some very pro-tenant and anti-landlord rules and regulations and a political agenda to make this even worse. Tenants can stay in a property without paying rent for over a year and then can do thousands of Euro in damage while the landlord picks up the bill.

Why not look at UK, USA, France, Italy, Germany...

John1648

DubCount wrote: »

As someone who doesn't even live in Ireland, why pick Dublin as the spot to buy a rental property?

Ireland has some very pro-tenant and anti-landlord rules and regulations and a political agenda to make this even worse. Tenants can stay in a property without paying rent for over a year and then can do thousands of Euro in damage while the landlord picks up the bill.

Why not look at UK, USA, France, Italy, Germany...

Well, in simple terms - France: high taxes, very low yields of 3 % gross, VERY tenant protection laws; italy - low yields, high taxes, no growth in propery prices, Germany - low yields, complex regulations, rent controls, UK - yields lower than Ireland, brexit uncertainty re property prices/appreciation. US- far away, costly to manage from afar ...

John1648

circular flexing wrote: »

You are taking the best case scenario. You have not accounted for

- repairs
- vacant periods
- over holdings
- non-payment of rent

and other things I have not considered. Also don't forget when you sell the apartment, the CGT will be 33% on any gain.

I was an overseas landlord and I would not recommend it to anyone, it's too stressful and the downside is huge. This is particularly true if you are investing your retirement funds.

Agree with these points. But elswhere you have the same issues, but for a net yield of 2 % such as France or 3% in Netherlands.

On the 33% CGT - at least there is a gain be taxed, and you get 66% of it. Take e.g. Italy with no growth, or Spain with very moderate growth etc. I would rather pay such a tax, but have a property which is appreciating over time ...

DubCount

John1648 wrote: »

Well, in simple terms - France: high taxes, very low yields of 3 % gross, VERY tenant protection laws; italy - low yields, high taxes, no growth in propery prices, Germany - low yields, complex regulations, rent controls, UK - yields lower than Ireland, brexit uncertainty re property prices/appreciation. US- far away, costly to manage from afar ...

Maybe the lower yields are reflective of lower risk?

Anyway, it seems you have already decided so good luck with your investment.

James 007

DubCount wrote: »

As someone who doesn't even live in Ireland, why pick Dublin as the spot to buy a rental property?

Ireland has some very pro-tenant and anti-landlord rules and regulations and a political agenda to make this even worse. Tenants can stay in a property without paying rent for over a year and then can do thousands of Euro in damage while the landlord picks up the bill.

Why not look at UK, USA, France, Italy, Germany...

I would have to agree with this poster, probably 18 months before you could get a sitting tenant out. I think you would be mad investing unless you knew of a flow of tenants coming from your own country & you offered rent at a reduced rate for them to maintain it too, even that would have its own risks. Too many tenants here seem to be taking advantage of lack of protection laws for the landlord, too much of a headache really.

John1648

James 007 wrote: »

I would have to agree with this poster, probably 18 months before you could get a sitting tenant out. I think you would be mad investing unless you knew of a flow of tenants coming from your own country & you offered rent at a reduced rate for them to maintain it too, even that would have its own risks. Too many tenants here seem to be taking advantage of lack of protection laws for the landlord, too much of a headache really.

Sad to hear that ... not easy being a landlord in Ireland, it seems ...

John1648

DubCount wrote: »

Maybe the lower yields are reflective of lower risk?

Well, e.g. Italy has a very complex, whimful, unpredictable tax system, plus very low yields...

Ireland has a transparent and efficient governance and property protection system, compared with 95% of Europe

Pawwed Rig

John1648 wrote: »

Well, e.g. Italy has a very complex, whimful, unpredictable tax system, plus very low yields...

Ireland has a transparent and efficient governance and property protection system, compared with 95% of Europe

Italy's task system is nuts. Avoid at all costs

Buddy Bubs

Property investment is all well and good and without mortgage expenses this looks good at the moment, but why anyone would consider throwing what I'm guessing is a sizeable chuck of your overall money at a single asset is madness. What's the yield there if everything goes right? Just over 6%?
Not attractive enough to me to justify not diversifying into other, more liquid investments.

M_Murphy57

All the major parties falling over themselves to "solve" the housing crisis means you couldnt pay me (lol) to become a small time landlord in ireland.

We already have rent caps, long legal processes to get tenants out even when they stop paying and it will only get worse (for landlords). I expect eventually we will be looking at landlords being forced to give lifetime tenancies with rent control. Fine if you are a giant fund with hundreds of tenants, terrible if you are a small timer.

Throw in the fact you are abroad and looking to buy in an area known for anti social behaviour? This has bad idea written all over it.

I have a decent 3 bed duplex key on this estate, which is actively managed by Petra, a good property management company. Lucky to have really great tenants past 15 years who respect the place as if they own it. As they are such reliable tenants, and I was a cash buyer, I can afford to charge a rent below market price, as they are actively maintaining my investment. Even do paintwork themselves. It is in the LUAS, has the shopping centre, access to hospital, schools, mountains nearby etc. An investment I don't regret. Carrigmore is solidly built.

SteM

John1648 wrote: »

So your analysis is that in Dublin, rents will go down 50% over time?

I.e. not increase with the inflation, but on the opposite, will go down?

Would be interesting to hear other views on this.

Not Dublin rents, but €1300 for a 1 bed in Citywest is certainly not sustainable imo.

Pawwed Rig

M_Murphy57 wrote: »

All the major parties falling over themselves to "solve" the housing crisis means you couldnt pay me (lol) to become a small time landlord in ireland.

We already have rent caps, long legal processes to get tenants out even when they stop paying and it will only get worse (for landlords). I expect eventually we will be looking at landlords being forced to give lifetime tenancies with rent control. Fine if you are a giant fund with hundreds of tenants, terrible if you are a small timer.

Throw in the fact you are abroad and looking to buy in an area known for anti social behaviour? This has bad idea written all over it.

The rights of people to remain in a house despite not making any payments towards it is one of the reasons that Ulster and KBC have abandoned the Irish market. The property market here has been a basket case since the late 90s.

AndrewJRenko

John1648 wrote: »

Thank you for this perspective! I am taking it seriously, have researched a lot of other options, looked at 10 different properties, have a solicitor, got tax advice already confirming the above figures.

I am only checking here whether indeed Dublin is such a market where 1 bedroom apt goes for 1400 eur. Nowhere else have I seen this, for apartments costing 160- 190 000 EUR. Yields tend to be very good in Dublin

Did you research any investment options other than residential property? Do you really want to put what appears to be your entire savings into one asset class in one market?

The key to reducing investment risk is diversification - across regions and markets. You are planning on a very narrow focus to your investment. That is a high risk approach.

John1648

An important set of remarks to make:

I have looked at a few other markets too, and Ireland stand out positively pricisely because of:

- average price versus salaries & rents, and vacancy rates: so far Irish prices for real estate have not recovered to pre-2012 levels. Everywhere else they grew abofe and beyond. Apart from Madrid, Rome, Cyprus, Romania. But these are low-yield, stagnant economies, with low salaries. Real estate prices versus salaries are lowest in Ireland, out of the 10 most developed EU countries.

- Rents versus purchase prices, again, expressed in rental yields in Dublin are highest of all EU, the rest hovering at 2 - 4 %, gross, mostly

- Demographics - Ireland's population will grow faster than any other European country - with 30% by 2050, compare with stagnation or decline in Italy, Spain, France. NL come close, but has a very rental market controlled system

- Economy outlook - is bright, with youngish growing population in Ireland, multinationals, liberal open economy, many multinationals, US' interface to EU etc.

So to me this looks like a sound investment.

Certainly better than:

a) e.g. a 180 000 Paris suburbs aprt, with 4% gross yield, where all taxes lead to negative income right away
b) keeping cash for too long, which risks being eaten by approaching rampant inflation
c) a 200 000 aprt in Netherlands, with rent capped at 725 EUR gross, and multiple taxes
d) 4 smaller apartments in a Central European setting, with a minus 20 % demographic outlook

What would you say to the above considerations?

Caranica

This is Ireland tonight. No way the CityWest rent is sustainable

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1394736250930802689?s=19

John1648

Caranica wrote: »

This is Ireland tonight. No way the CityWest rent is sustainable

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1394736250930802689?s=19

Would this then cancel all the points of Ireland's attractiveness I have outlined above?

Would be a sad story if this goes ahead, will kill the real estate prices, drive away capital, lower the investors and banks assets valuation etc etc, lower the sustainability of many Dutch and Irish pension funds who pay hard earned pensions and vacations of many elderly on the Indian Ocean beaches ... sad, sad, sad ...

That would be a different Ireland ...

Mad_maxx

John1648 wrote: »

An important set of remarks to make:

I have looked at a few other markets too, and Ireland stand out positively pricisely because of:

- average price versus salaries & rents, and vacancy rates: so far Irish prices for real estate have not recovered to pre-2012 levels. Everywhere else they grew abofe and beyond. Apart from Madrid, Rome, Cyprus, Romania. But these are low-yield, stagnant economies, with low salaries. Real estate prices versus salaries are lowest in Ireland, out of the 10 most developed EU countries.

- Rents versus purchase prices, again, expressed in rental yields in Dublin are highest of all EU, the rest hovering at 2 - 4 %, gross, mostly

- Demographics - Ireland's population will grow faster than any other European country - with 30% by 2050, compare with stagnation or decline in Italy, Spain, France. NL come close, but has a very rental market controlled system

- Economy outlook - is bright, with youngish growing population in Ireland, multinationals, liberal open economy, many multinationals, US' interface to EU etc.

So to me this looks like a sound investment.

Certainly better than:

a) e.g. a 180 000 Paris suburbs aprt, with 4% gross yield, where all taxes lead to negative income right away
b) keeping cash for too long, which risks being eaten by approaching rampant inflation
c) a 200 000 aprt in Netherlands, with rent capped at 725 EUR gross, and multiple taxes
d) 4 smaller apartments in a Central European setting, with a minus 20 % demographic outlook

What would you say to the above considerations?

we look like electing SF as the largest party after the next election , hard left socialist parties rarely treat buy to let investors with kindness

John1648

M_Murphy57 wrote: »

All the major parties falling over themselves to "solve" the housing crisis means you couldnt pay me (lol) to become a small time landlord in ireland.

We already have rent caps, long legal processes to get tenants out even when they stop paying and it will only get worse (for landlords). I expect eventually we will be looking at landlords being forced to give lifetime tenancies with rent control. Fine if you are a giant fund with hundreds of tenants, terrible if you are a small timer.

Throw in the fact you are abroad and looking to buy in an area known for anti social behaviour? This has bad idea written all over it.

Is Citywest an area with lots of anti social behaviour?

John1648

M_Murphy57 wrote: »

All the major parties falling over themselves to "solve" the housing crisis means you couldnt pay me (lol) to become a small time landlord in ireland.

We already have rent caps, long legal processes to get tenants out even when they stop paying and it will only get worse (for landlords). I expect eventually we will be looking at landlords being forced to give lifetime tenancies with rent control.

Would this then cancel all the points of Ireland's attractiveness I have outlined above?

Would be a sad story if this goes ahead, will kill the real estate prices, drive away capital, lower the investors and banks assets valuation etc etc, lower the sustainability of many Dutch and Irish pension funds who pay hard earned pensions and vacations of many elderly on the Indian Ocean beaches ... sad, sad, sad ...

That would be a different Ireland ...

John1648

Mad_maxx wrote: »

we look like electing SF as the largest party after the next election , hard left socialist parties rarely treat buy to let investors with kindness

Are many people that unhappy to elect socialists to run the country?

If this happens and they implement such policies, this will depreciate the value of real estate, ruin banks, investment and pension funds, including foreign ones, from e.g. US...

On the other hand I must admit that this a tenants' perspective, as on landlords' forums, the mood is very different ... SF is seen as a marginal party with very few chances to run the country. I am actually told that after covid prices and rents will increase, as economy reopens, savings boost purchasing power, pentup demand takes over and sweeps the few available properties. Then qualified foreigners return, paying 2.5 k for one bedroom in average areas. While the tenants would continue expecting SF to come and save the country one day. That is the mood on those other forums, just quoting ...

John1648

Mad_maxx wrote: »

we look like electing SF as the largest party after the next election , hard left socialist parties rarely treat buy to let investors with kindness

P.s this almost sounds like they will confiscate property, take from rich give to poor, execute the ones resisting ...

I understand the tenants' frustration, but the key is to save, spend less, delay today's gratification for future stability

Mad_maxx

John1648 wrote: »

Are many people that unhappy to elect socialists to run the country?

If this happens and they implement such policies, this will depreciate the value of real estate, ruin banks, investment and pension funds, including foreign ones, from e.g. US...

On the other hand I must admit that this a tenants' perspective, as on landlords' forums, the mood is very different ... SF is seen as a marginal party with very few chances to run the country. I am actually told that after covid prices and rents will increase, as economy reopens, savings boost purchasing power, pentup demand takes over and sweeps the few available properties. Then qualified foreigners return, paying 2.5 k for one bedroom in average areas. While the tenants would continue expecting SF to come and save the country one day. That is the mood on those other forums, just quoting ...

the narrative created by the leftist media ( which is all the media in this country ) has been all doom and gloom since 2011 despite the incredible recovery , that eventually sinks in and causes people to vote for parties which espouse destructive policies

The country has moved sharply left , SF coming to power is inevitable , we need to get it out of our system , hopefully when we do SF wont refuse to step down

embraer170

circular flexing wrote: »

You won't get the full 1650, you'll only get a proportion of it.

How is the proportion calculated?

I didn't pick it up from the Taxation of Non-Resident Landlords Revenue guide.

John1648

I have done my share of analysis, and looked at a few other markets in EU, and the Irish property is the most undervalued, compared in yearly salaries vs sale price.

40 k yearly salary, 10 yearly salaries buys you a home in the capital.

Paris, 15 years, London-18 years, Budapest - 20 years, Moscow - 25 years.

So- prices are waaaaay to go up still. Plus, the best rental yields in EU.

That is why I am considering Dublin, Citywest namely.

I would not even consider prices going down naturally in Dublin, unless a majour crash happens like in 2008, but then everyone goes down elsewhere too.

Plus, the best demographic outlook in Europe, + 30% population growth by 2050. Even if a part of youth leaves, demand will stay very strong.

What do you think?

Caranica

You've been told why your idea is unwise multiple times. But if you want to go ahead and invest, fire away.

SteM

John1648 wrote: »

I understand the tenants' frustration, but the key is to save, spend less, delay today's gratification for future stability

What a simplistic view of life you seem to have.

Government buildings

The thing that I see about investment property by private individuals is that I think there will be a gradual takeover of the said property by the state over the next number of years. Landlords will gradually lose control of their property.

JimmyVik

Government buildings wrote: »

The thing that I see about investment property by private individuals is that I think there will be a gradual takeover of the said property by the state over the next number of years. Landlords will gradually lose control of their property.

I agree. And its being going on a few years already

ibarelycare

John1648 wrote: »

Is Citywest an area with lots of anti social behaviour?

Parts of it. I lived in Carrigmore Crescent for a few months up to February this year, and it's a nice quiet estate surrounded by other nice quiet estates. Any noise issues I had came from the Luas/traffic. Lots of youths hanging around the shopping centre, especially at night. Never really saw any trouble from them. Once you go past the shopping centre (Jobstown) it's rough. The Lidl is there that was torn down in the snow by "locals" with a JCB. There's a few halting sites and very rough estates up that way.

I can't really comment on your investment as I was renting a room in a 3-bed apartment (large en-suite, top floor, €750 a month), but my former landlord managed to get someone in to take that room after me for over €800. Since then one of the other girls has moved out (moved 1st May) and her room is still up for rent, price dropped from 650 to 590. As I said not really comparable cos you're looking at 1-beds but just giving some insight!