My dog, my garden and neighbours cat

Call me Al

BobbyBolivia wrote: »

They are not a protected species or animal. It's not really that difficult.

I have attempted to give the OP the best advice in line with the law, not aligned with many here who would just hope for there to be no consequences if the dog killed the cat.

OP, my last comment on this issue because it is descending into farce - it will be hard to argue that the dog is not dangerous or to argue that the dog is under control if the dog is killing protected animals or species. You may be able to argue against paying any vet bills - but the neighbour could create a lot of trouble for you under the Control of Dogs Act 1986.

They are a protected species insofar as the owner has a legal duty of care to them. The cat owner's neighbour has zero responsibility to care for the neighbour's cat.
The poster has a duty of care to his dogs. They're well taken care of and confined to his own garden.
A few more close calls like this and the neighbour's cat will soon learn where he stands in the pecking order. I wouldn't expect there will be too many more incursions.

knucklehead6

BobbyBolivia wrote: »

Hey it's my own garden and the dog can do what he likes there! This line of reasoning is absolute nonsense.

If the dog kills the cat then I don't see how it justifiably won't be classed as dangerous by a warden or judge if needed be.

If the dog somehow managed to get hold of a bat that went onto the property it would be the exact same thing. Or a red squirrel, or a brown or mountain hare. Just because the dog is on your property and another animal enters the property doesn't mean a bloody thing. All of those are protected or endangered species and if I saw a dog killing one of them then the warden would be contacted.

You sound like a bit of ...... naah. I’ll leave it.

Dog in it’s owners garden, secure and not able to escape. If a protected animal enters the property and is hurt then sorry, but that’s nature

If the protected animal is in the wild and attacked by a fox do you report the fox to the warden!?

You’re talking total twaddle

CelticRambler

volchitsa wrote: »

Not subject to sanction for its own actions is one thing, sure - but are you really saying that in France if a cat wanders into a neighbouring garden which has a dog in it (securely fenced in) and the dog attacks the cat, that the dog owners would be responsible for the cat being hurt?

The point being made was that there are different rules for different jurisdictions. The rules relating to dog biting humans are considerably stricter in France, compared to Ireland, for example. So there's no point in me arguing the rights and wrongs of what a French dog can do to a French cat, and - for the purposes of this thread - there is no point in someone picking a random American opinion about dogs in general and trying to apply it to a specific situation in Ireland.

Sparkey84

to the op, i had a very similar situation over 20 years ago my family pet was a jack russel and next door lived a cat. the cat would do two problematic thing

1 come into garden almost appeared to be for the fun of the chase.

2 he would walk over and back the boundary wall at 3am just to annoy the dog and make him bark. not all cats are assh0!es but that particular one most certainly was.

we recieved a phone call at 3am one night from the neighbour complaining about the barking when he realised the root cause of the barking he was very apologetic and made efforts to control the cat

the discussion was had about the cat coming in, nobody was wanting to see the cat get hurt but if that happened all party's involved were of the opinion the cat would be to blame.

whippet

To the op … you’ll be grand .. first of all highly unlikely that a Lab would manage to catch a healthy cat .. but if he did manage to kill the neighbours cat … well you wanted them of the need to control their cat and you can just throw it back over the hedge.

I’ve three dogs and the odd cat may stray in to the garden but rarely will you see them more than a hand full of times … they quickly learn

Stihl waters

If the dog kills the cat, get rid of the remains, don't go telling the neighbours, their fault for letting the cat roam free after you warning them, if the dog injures the cat deny all responsibility and tell them your dogs were indoors at the time, theres only so much you can do and their cat is their responsibility

fullstop

Bruthal. wrote: »

What if the cat is about to kill a protected bird, and the neighbour's dog kills the cat, saving the bird?

Give that dog a medal and a big bowl of Pedigree Chum.

And a belly rub.

jackboy

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

They're a nice couple with a young kid so they're not unapproachable or anything but their reaction was that I shouldn't have dogs that are capable of killing a cat. And they'd look for medical expenses and any other kind of compensation of anything happened.

After this encounter it’s time to stop dealing with them. You have done your part. If anything happens just deny it, they deserve no better.

Timberrrrrrrr

daheff wrote: »

Not under control if it kills the cat.

The dog is under control, the cat is the one not under control as it is entering the dogs territory which it will be entitled to protect

Man Vs ManUre

Stihl waters wrote: »

If the dog kills the cat, get rid of the remains, don't go telling the neighbours, their fault for letting the cat roam free after you warning them, if the dog injures the cat deny all responsibility and tell them your dogs were indoors at the time, theres only so much you can do and their cat is their responsibility

Then the dog will be up for murder or at least manslaughter, and the owners will be up for disposing of a body and interfering with a crime. If I was the owners I would be letting the dog face up to his actions on this one.
If an injured cat comes home then forensics team will certainly prove the dogs teeth marks or even dna presence on cat.

Pandiculation

Seems extremely unlikely anything would ever be a legal issue. We do tie ourselves in knots here. Cats and dogs have been existing like this for millennia.

The cat’s just exploring. They typically just expand and explore their territory and would only be aware of boundaries where it’s marked by another cat. They’re not that bothered hunting most of the time, when well fed. They’re generally extremely lazy and will just hang around enjoying the view. They’re usually very chilled out.

A fence is just a thing to walk on and an angry dog is just a hazard. The cat has no awareness of dog territorial marking or behaviour, nor of human visual territory marking with walls or fences.

Cats are savvy, have excellent senses, they’re very fast and very capable of getting well out of danger as they can move usually much more quickly than a typical dog and can bound, jump and climb at high speed. They’re far more agile than a dog.

It’s rare that they’ll ever get into harm’s way and they’re also not likely to attack anyone or any dog. They just run. They’ll try to frighten something off by hissing and making themselves look big if cornered.

beertons

Sure look. If you moved next door with a cat, and your new neighbour said that they had a pair of dogs, wouldn't you make sure your cat gave it a wide berth. I'd stick a bell on the cat, so everyone would know where it is.

Buddy Bubs

Wow, op here. Was out for a walk for a little while there I see loads of responses. Plenty to read through. Could someone claiming cats are a protected species in irish law send me a link to that if they gave it. I assume they are protected from humans in law if this exists at all.

ZX7R

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

Wow, op here. Was out for a walk for a little while there I see loads of responses. Plenty to read through. Could someone claiming cats are a protected species in irish law send me a link to that if they gave it. I assume they are protected from humans in law if this exists at all.

There not a protected species, they are however protected under law the same as any other pet or livestock.
Even then they are not fully protected as they are not a licensed animal

Pandiculation

OP you simply shouldn’t make statements like “I wouldn’t like if my dog killed your cat.”

That’s what’s opened this discussion with neighbours and by the sounds of it, assuming this happened, you’ve planted the idea that you’re somehow keeping unusually dangerous dogs.

Cats will wander. That’s how cats operate. If you’re in any residential area in Ireland or anywhere in Europe, there will be cats. They’ve been a human companion animal and associated with human settlements, with evidence found as far back as 7500BC.

Humans notions of territorial boundaries don’t apply to other animals and cats do not see fences as anything other than something to walk on / climb. They’re not even a barrier in the cat’s view of the world.

My recommendation would be stop discussing hypotheticals and extremely unlikely dangers of your own pets with neighbours, as you’re bringing complications that nobody ever considered until you brought them up.

Cats can run across roads and be hit by traffic, get into issues with dogs, miscalculate jumps or heights and have accidents (rare but it happens).

Ireland is highly litigious, but the scenario painted here is extremely unlikely. There’s no reasonable expectation that you have to keep your garden (a private space) entirely cat friendly by restricting the dogs that it contains.

There’s also no reasonable expectation that your neighbours are going to restrict a cat from moving around an area.

So the normal way that things have always been is people just accept that they coexist.

99nsr125

BobbyBolivia wrote: »

Sure, the owner has a legal responsibility toward the care and welfare of the cat.

However (and I don't know of any relevant case law) it is no secret that cats need outdoor time to protect from certain issues and ailments. They are natural outdoor animals. The neighbour could feasibly argue that it was in the best interest in the cats welfare to allow the cat access to the outdoors.

Don't get me wrong, I think all cat owners should have a mandatory catio type structure before owning a cat. An enclosed space where the cat has access to the outdoors without accessing other areas where they might be a nuisance.

However, there are a myriad of situations where a protected animal (not just cats, but hares and squirrels and more) can wander into a dogs property and I cannot see how the dog can be classified as under control if it is killing those animals. From my experience with wardens, I don't expect the warden would either.

In my experience with wardens the animal invading another animals territory and private property is deemed to be at fault.

A stray dog comes onto your land, your dog kills said stray. Warden is called, trespassing animal is deemed to be at fault and you can seek compensation from owner of stray for your losses / medical costs related to your animal.

ForestFire

We have always had cats growing up, living on a country road, outside a small town.

The cats would be outdoor cats and free to roam, and they where also used as rodent control, especially in the older days, when my grandfather kept a working horse and there would be the attraction of food for rodents. Cats outside will keep mice and rats away from the house.

We took in an abandoned kitten on our doorstep about 10 years ago (to be honest I would say a person left it there, as no sign of mother anywhere near us). We have taken care of the cat since, indoors initial, but outside once ready.

The cat is well looked after, diet, medical etc, but will always be an outdoor cat.

Unfortunately as much as cats need to be free (Mostly), this does mean there are risks associated with this.

I think a cat would normally be able for one dog, most of the time. Our cats growing up were well able to "warn" off the next door Labrador, that was never controlled itself back in them days, and the dog often ended up on our property, so the cats where actually protecting us as kids.

But even still if our cat was killed by a dog, on the dogs property, I would in no way blame the dog owner (or dog), and this would just be an unfortunate sad fact of life....just like when the cat brings dead mice and sometimes birds to the doorstep.

We also have a small Bichon, and most of the time the dog and cat will get on fine (Even sleep together in the outdoor kennel, during the day), but there is some "play" chasing that will happen from time to time, but they both have learned each others limits and warnings since the start.

We have also had rabbits (Before the cat arrived) and again our cat would get on with our rabbits, when the rabbits were out in the back garden. Eventually when one passed the cat even slept in the rabbit shed with our remain rabbit, until she passed also about a year later.

This story was brought to you by Susie (The elder ruler of the roast), Lucy (The young hyper Dog) and RIP to Slippy and Hazel (our two lop eared rabbits).

Hobby farmer

BobbyBolivia wrote: »

The dog is clearly not under control if it is potentially killing protected animals.

Are you for real or just trolling? The dogs are 100% under control in the op’s back garden. If the neighbours cat is wandering into his/her backyard and the dog chase’s/ hurts / kills it then that’s not his problem.

If the neighbours are going to be looking to claim vets bills etc the O.P should make it clear they need to control the cat and keep it out of his property.

fullstop

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

Wow, op here. Was out for a walk for a little while there I see loads of responses. Plenty to read through. Could someone claiming cats are a protected species in irish law send me a link to that if they gave it. I assume they are protected from humans in law if this exists at all.

I think he’s out looking to catch a dog killing a squirrel so he can call the warden.

Buddy Bubs

OK OP here, I'll provide some clarification as to what's going on. The neighbours house is 4 doors away. Also, behind our houses is an enclosed shared garden where all the kids play. The dogs are local celebrities, the kids love them and they come visit the dogs all the time and rub them. I've no issue with this and any comparisons to a dog attacking cats and attacking children is in this case equivalent to a cat killing a mouse likely to kill a child. It won't happen. These dogs are typical labs and love children. Give them toys and sticks for the children to throw for them. All day long if they could. Some of the older kids walk them.

Maybe this is a cat person v dog person debate that will never be resolved. The problem is the cat repeatedly comes in. Thought it would have learned like the other cats to keep a respectful distance. Won't come in when dogs are there but the dogs cop it fairly quickly and and free to come and go when weather is warm and doors open.

micah537

I'd be inclined to correct the dogs behaviour first. Yes I know it's your garden and all at that but it's not worth the hassle of having your dog kill or injure the cat. Bad/unstable neighbours could attempt to poison your dog as well as making life needlessly stressful. While it's instinct to catch smaller prey, it can certainly be trained out of him, labs aren't stupid.

Is he actually trying to catch the cat or just scaring it off. I've a GSD who has 5 cats annoying her. She will just walk out the door and 3 run off, that's it, she'll walk back inside, 1 cat needs 1 bark and the other cat is stubborn, she will trot out to get rid of him. There is absolutely to desire to kill them as you can tell by the lack of speed and her stance. The younger lab may just need to be called back so he knows it's wrong.

The other option is to catch the cat. Leave him at a vets somewhere and say he's lost. You talked to the owners and they don't respect your property, so why care about their cat? If they are responsible owners the cat will be microchipped and they'll get him back. If he's not it may take longer to get him back, either way they should be more inclined to keep an eye on him.

Alternatively, if you can identify the spot where it enters your property and its always the same spot, leave a tub of water there for him to fall into (not a barrel that it'll drown in, something a couple of inches deep that will soak it), that should stop it coming into your garden.

You could also tell them your kids are allergic to cats, scared of cats or the cat is pooping where the kids play.

Pandiculation

Again, you’re talking about the cat as “it should have learned respect for” etc

This is a human or dog trainer mentality. A cat is a cat. It’ll learn about is environment in the way cats do.

You can’t teach a cat to “respect” or sit down and have a chat with it about boundaries.

From the cat’s perspective the boundaries aren’t the ones you or your dogs see. It can walk along walls, rooftops, bounce over a fence or a hedge as easily as you’d walk across your kitchen. So the world would look very different to a cat.

It also may not see your dogs as a threat. It’s making its own risk assessments and that’ll be based on speed, agility and ability to get to safety.

BorneTobyWilde

Cats chase dogs in real life. You've been watching too many cartoons. No chance whatsoever of your dog catching that cat, or killing it, if cornered it will be the dog getting attacked.
Nothing to worry about, just ignore the problem.

begbysback

The Continental Op wrote: »

If someone was to open a book my money would be on the cat.

I really have seen some nasty scars on dogs after they have pushed their luck with a cat.

Now not all cats defend themselves against a dog but those that do normally win.

I’ll take a bit of this action, because it depends how committed the Labrador is to hurting the cat, if he is fully committed then he wins, if he is in any way half arsed, or doesn’t know what he’s going to do when he catches the cat, then the cat wins. Sounds to me there is enough commitment in the lab that he will win.

Pandiculation

This is starting to look like one of these “I’m annoyed by a cat in my garden” threads.

The reality is you’ll have cats, foxes, hedgehogs, birds, rats, mice etc all crossing your garden.

A domestic cat, wormed and well maintained isn’t a threat to your health at all. Wild animal poo may well be though.

That’s why you cover sandpits for kids and wash your hands if you’ve been working with soil before eating etc etc.

Tell me how

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

OK OP here, I'll provide some clarification as to what's going on. The neighbours house is 4 doors away. Also, behind our houses is an enclosed shared garden where all the kids play. The dogs are local celebrities, the kids love them and they come visit the dogs all the time and rub them. I've no issue with this and any comparisons to a dog attacking cats and attacking children is in this case equivalent to a cat killing a mouse likely to kill a child. It won't happen. These dogs are typical labs and love children. Give them toys and sticks for the children to throw for them. All day long if they could. Some of the older kids walk them.

Maybe this is a cat person v dog person debate that will never be resolved. The problem is the cat repeatedly comes in. Thought it would have learned like the other cats to keep a respectful distance. Won't come in when dogs are there but the dogs cop it fairly quickly and and free to come and go when weather is warm and doors open.

Can you block off any gaps in your fence which a cat may wander through? I'm well aware of a cats ability to climb and so doing this is no guarantee they won't be back but maybe it might help in showing that you did what was reasonable.

Other than that, I'd carry on as normal with one caveat, that the dogs aren't in a situation playing with the neighbouring kids and the cat makes an appearance. Should that happen and the dogs catch the cat, the kids might try to intervene which would not be ideal.

Outside of these considerations I don't think you need to do anything differently

Buddy Bubs

micah537 wrote: »

I'd be inclined to correct the dogs behaviour first. Yes I know it's your garden and all at that but it's not worth the hassle of having your dog kill or injure the cat. Bad/unstable neighbours could attempt to poison your dog as well as making life needlessly stressful. While it's instinct to catch smaller prey, it can certainly be trained out of him, labs aren't stupid.

Is he actually trying to catch the cat or just scaring it off. I've a GSD who has 5 cats annoying her. She will just walk out the door and 3 run off, that's it, she'll walk back inside, 1 cat needs 1 bark and the other cat is stubborn, she will trot out to get rid of him. There is absolutely to desire to kill them as you can tell by the lack of speed and her stance. The younger lab may just need to be called back so he knows it's wrong.

The other option is to catch the cat. Leave him at a vets somewhere and say he's lost. You talked to the owners and they don't respect your property, so why care about their cat? If they are responsible owners the cat will be microchipped and they'll get him back. If he's not it may take longer to get him back, either way they should be more inclined to keep an eye on him.

Alternatively, if you can identify the spot where it enters your property and its always the same spot, leave a tub of water there for him to fall into (not a barrel that it'll drown in, something a couple of inches deep that will soak it), that should stop it coming into your garden.

You could also tell them your kids are allergic to cats, scared of cats or the cat is pooping where the kids play.

I'm not kidnapping a cat or setting traps for it. Just want it kept out

Buddy Bubs

Tell me how wrote: »

Can you block off any gaps in your fence which a cat may wander through? I'm well aware of a cats ability to climb and so doing this is no guarantee they won't be back but maybe it might help in showing that you did what was reasonable.

Other than that, I'd carry on as normal with one caveat, that the dogs aren't in a situation playing with the neighbouring kids and the cat makes an appearance. Should that happen and the dogs catch the cat, the kids might try to intervene which would not be ideal.

Outside of these considerations I don't think you need to do anything differently

No, wouldn't be able to alter anything to keep it out.

Pandiculation

It generally is a good idea to train your dogs not to go after cats or small animals though. We had a collie who was an absolute nightmare when out for walks as she would go totally nuts, nearly pulling you over when she saw a cat or a small dog.

She actually knocked a family member over by pulling the lead so hard.

It took a lot of ignoring her and continuing on walk totally pretending the cat wasn’t there before she eventually copped on a bit.

BobbyBolivia

As OP requested. This is the legislation which will be relevant to your issue in the worst case scenario:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/15/enacted/en/print#sec11

Also relevant will be this:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1986/act/32/enacted/en/html

Buddy Bubs

Pandiculation wrote: »

This is starting to look like one of these “I’m annoyed by a cat in my garden” threads.

The reality is you’ll have cats, foxes, hedgehogs, birds, rats, mice etc all crossing your garden.

A domestic cat, wormed and well maintained isn’t a threat to your health at all. Wild animal poo may well be though.

That’s why you cover sandpits for kids and wash your hands if you’ve been working with soil before eating etc etc.

I don't mind cats in my garden to be honest, before I had either of the dogs I had cats wander into the house a couple of times and apart from just moving them back outside, it didn't bother me. Just don't want the cat hurt. Maybe the dog won't kill it, the older one certainly won't but the younger one is enraged by it, but remember this is a 35kg labrador against at a guess a 3kg juvenile cat.

BobbyBolivia

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

No, wouldn't be able to alter anything to keep it out.

In my first response I suggested to squirt it with a spray bottle full of water or lightly try and spray it with the hose on low intensity.


It will definitely get the message then, without much need for alterations.

mrcheez

OP... get some of these ultra sonic cat scarers and place them aiming at where the cat may come in (such as along the wall)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/PestBye-Ultrasonic-Operated-Activated-Repellent/dp/B00FXSU2WK/

I have 4 of these around my garden and they are unbelievably effective. No more damn cats spraying my shed (I love cats btw, but the damned spray... yick)

pinktoe

BobbyBolivia wrote: »

In my first response I suggested to squirt it with a spray bottle full of water or lightly try and spray it with the hose on low intensity.


It will definitely get the message then, without much need for alterations.

It will learn to run when it sees you. It won't stop him entering the property.

Buddy Buds you can't not stop a cat from entering your property. Train your dog not to chase the cat, it's really not a difficult thing to do.

pinktoe

mrcheez wrote: »

OP... get some of these ultra sonic cat scarers and place them aiming at where the cat may come in (such as along the wall)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/PestBye-Ultrasonic-Operated-Activated-Repellent/dp/B00FXSU2WK/

I have 4 of these around my garden and they are unbelievably effective. No more damn cats spraying my shed (I love cats btw, but the damned spray... yick)

Copied from the ad:
The safe/humane way to keep cats and other unwanted pests (Dogs, Foxes, Squirrels, Rodents, some insects) out of your garden with fully adjustable sensitivity and frequency

He has dogs

mrcheez

pinktoe wrote: »

Copied from the ad:
The safe/humane way to keep cats and other unwanted pests (Dogs, Foxes, Squirrels, Rodents, some insects) out of your garden with fully adjustable sensitivity and frequency

He has dogs

Hence why I said place them wherever the cat may come in ... away from the dogs.

i.e. along the top of a wall.

Having been both a cat owner, and a dog owner, (and sometimes both at the same time....)

If I let my cat out and she was attacked and killed by a dog while roaming into a neighbour's garden - I would not place any responsibility on the dog owner's shoulders for that.

I would accept the responsiblity and risk as mine, for allowing my cat to roam.

(Which I did, all my cats have been outdoor cats).

Pandiculation

Just give it a few weeks and the cat will avoid the dogs.

Unless you’re putting out roast chicken, the cat will have no interest in dealing with dogs for the sake of it.

Buddy Bubs

Read the statute there, I doubt I've anything to worry about. I've spoken to them so I suppose whatever will be will be now. Stupidest cat I've ever come across, I think it might be a bit simple, the rest around the place are grand

The most likely scenario in this situation:

Cat roams into dog's territory.

Dog captures cat.

Dog kills cat.

Dog owner buries / disposes of cat's body.

A few days later, Cat owner knocks and queries if dog owner has seen their missing cat around.

Dog owner "nope".


Im not advocating that this is what the dog owner should do. But cats disappear all the time. No one ends up in court over missing cats that have been allowed to roam.

If the neighbors cat comes onto your property then there is no legal comeback if your dogs killed or injured it.

If they however chased the cat off your property into either your neighbors or a public area then you would be legally responsible.

Buddy Bubs

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

Read the statute there, I doubt I've anything to worry about. I've spoken to them so I suppose whatever will be will be now. Stupidest cat I've ever come across, I think it might be a bit simple, the rest around the place are grand

They learn quickly. If its a young cat, it may just take a bit longer to cop on!

I used to have cats sitting on my wall looking down in utter contempt at my cocker as she barked herself into a frenzy.

Then my own cat would come along and would immediately chase of the other cats - if anything, she was a much bigger threat to any other cats coming into my garden, then my dog was.

Buddy Bubs

DubInMeath wrote: »

If the neighbors cat comes onto your property then there is no legal comeback if your dogs killed or injured it.

If they however chased the cat off your property into either your neighbors or a public area then you would be legally responsible.

Go away with that kind of nonsense. What would I be legally responsible for? Trespassing??

volchitsa

DubInMeath wrote: »

If the neighbors cat comes onto your property then there is no legal comeback if your dogs killed or injured it.

If they however chased the cat off your property into either your neighbors or a public area then you would be legally responsible.

How on earth would that work? They're responsible for the cat running away instead of sitting there waiting to be killed?

Buddy Bubs

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

Go away with that kind of nonsense. What would I be legally responsible for? Trespassing??

Because your dogs are no longer under effective control.
That's where the control of dogs act comes into play.

volchitsa

volchitsa wrote: »

How on earth would that work? They're responsible for the cat running away instead of sitting there waiting to be killed?

They are responsible if their dogs leave their property.

Buddy Bubs

DubInMeath wrote: »

Because your dogs are no longer under effective control.
That's where the control of dogs act comes into play.

The dogs are in a back garden. They can't get out.

Buddy Bubs

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

The dogs are in a back garden. They can't get out.

Then your grand as I said, as long as they don't leave your property.

BobbyBolivia

BobbyBolivia wrote: »

As OP requested. This is the legislation which will be relevant to your issue in the worst case scenario:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/15/enacted/en/print#sec11

Also relevant will be this:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1986/act/32/enacted/en/html

So basically the person who fails to fence in their animal is guilty of the offence when it escapes control

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So basically the person who fails to fence in their animal is guilty of the offence when it escapes control

Correct in relation to dogs.