Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178621#Comment_122178621

It’s not simply a new platform. Anything but.

There has been significant demolition works of existing structures, the avoiding line has to be relaid in a new alignment and then re-signalled to passenger standard.

None of that is cheap.

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179258#Comment_122179258

And if the substation/charging infrastructure can't be located within IE lands then you need a railway order.

They managed to get the substation into the car park at Drogheda so only needed planning permission.

Hopefully the stations with charging infrastructure are next to developable lands so a land deal could be considered. Get the LDA to do some TOD would be the ideal and avoid railway orders.

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179192#Comment_122179192

The question will be how many extra BEMU trains will be needed to (1) fulfil the same service pattern (2) increase the service to 10min frequencies and (3) allow time for charging if you go Battery.

They could end up in a situation where the capital and operating cost of BEMU is higher than just EMU if lots of OHLE charging infrastructure and energy storage systems are needed. Big study for TYPSA to carry out, presume they'll get Alstom on board to de-risk it for themselves.

The 2nd fleet order announcement is political anyway, the same fleet was announced for DART to Wicklow a few weeks back (not directly but can't be delivered without it).

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179258#Comment_122179258

Having read the engineering doc for the Drogheda charging infrastructure from cover to cover, I'm well aware of what is involved!

Fortunately, given that such infrastructure is all within the existing station, the planning is relatively straight forward and fast and most importantly can be done at the local council level and doesn't need to go to ABP for a railway order.

It is absolutely trivial compared to building a massive new depot. Unfortunately given the amount of land a big new depot takes, you are more likely to run into local objections and thus more likely to end up in ABP and then in judicial review, etc.

As an aside, funnily enough, Irish Rail will be "just plugging them in somewhere", at Inchicore. That is how they plan to charge them there during the initial testing phase in Inchicore, which doesn't have special charging infrastructure, they will just plug them in! Obviously that won't be very fast charging, but should be sufficient for the testing, etc.

DylanQuestion

They need to do Blackpool ASAP as it's so easy. I imagine it would aid in taking cars off the N20 and Watercourse Road, especially if the Redforge Road apartments go ahead. It needs to be as accessible from as many areas as possible too. A bridge over Redforge Road to the shopping centre, steps down to Redforge Road and steps up to Dublin Hill

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179372#Comment_122179372

Those are interesting questions, but I feel they aren't the driving deciding factor here. It is all about derisking these projects.

It isn't BEMU versus EMU. It is BEMU versus having no new trains for years because electrification is stuck in ABP/court challenges.

I do think they want to electrify and go EMU as quickly as possible, but they are worried about planning and funding and this is a convenient work around.

BTW The planned frequency in Cork seems to be 30 minutes, not 10mins!

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179376#Comment_122179376

I'll be stunned if there are electric trains of any kind operating services on the Cork suburban lines in 2026. But looking forward to being proven wrong.

Bsharp

Its 10minute frequency for Cork, 5min between Kent and Glounthaune. Was only yesterday AJ Cronin had it up on slides at the PWI seminar.

Maybe they'll have an interim frequency to account for battery operations.

The points I noted are not the driving factor politically, technically they should be. IE engineers are fairly panicked about the idea of running a commuter network on battery. Merseyside rail is one of the BEMU frontrunners for a small enough, low risk service, and its been mixed thus far. I hope it all works itself out and doesn't cost a fortune in the long run.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179505#Comment_122179505

That frequency is the end goal, once a new depot is built and full electrification. Obviously that isn't happening by 2026!

I just mean they can replace the existing fleet, with the existing frequency/schedule which is 30 minutes, with BEMU's before any of the above is done.

Same is happening in Drogheda, initially replace existing trains with BEMU's, increased frequency will only come with electrification and new depot.

BTW The DART+ trains use a much larger batteries then the Class 777, 840kWh versus 320kWh.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179336#Comment_122179336

I don't doubt but that it's complicated, and with Iarnrod Eireann involved it's no doubt at least twice as complicate as it needs to be. I'm just aghast at the caption below ……..

THREE HUNDRED MILLION EURO ???

Hibernicis

It isn't BEMU versus EMU. It is BEMU versus having no new trains for years because electrification is stuck in ABP/court challenges.

@bk

Jut wondering, are you saying this in anticipation or are there any electrification projects ABP at present ?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179825#Comment_122179825

The platform project is costing EUR 23m.

The quoted EUR 300m cost is the combined cost of the double tracking to Midleton project, the re-signalling of the Cork area network project, and the platform project all lumped together.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179840#Comment_122179840

DART+ West and DART+ South West

namloc1980

In the reports it seems that 5 of the 8 new stations will be delivered first with the other 3 depending on more development in their immediate vicinity.

I'd say the 3 that will be deferred pending more local development would be Monard, Water-rock and Tivoli.

A1ACo

For CART / CATS - regards - BEMUs, Electrification, & 8no. new Cork train stations –

Does a future - Electrified, frequent, city/ suburban commuter service for Cork City area (CART/ CAT) – deserve its own new Topic thread (maybe not)?

It seems (Electrified) CART / CAT questions being/ to ask:

Realistically? - BEMU &/ or, cascaded DMU’s operation first?

… or use of re-refurbished old LHB DARTs as EMU service first?

Train & platform lengths?

If BEMU – charging locations?

EMU line voltage – 1.5kV DC / 3kV DC, or 25 kV AC?

A few previous/ current topic threads below relevant/ helpful.

Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway] - Page 18 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

Re: Consultants to oversee construction of new Cork stations (rte.ie)

First Dublin DART+ battery-electric multiple-unit (youtube.com)

Mention above after minute 6:50 as ‘CART ‘ ….

Cork suburban rail expansion proposal — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

(CMATS etc. Cork Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy)

Cork Commuter Stations — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

Railway electrification — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

25 kV AC power supplies — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

DART+ (DART Expansion) - Page 336 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin' https://www.irishrail.ie/ga-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/cork-area-commuter-rail/glounthaune-to-midleton-twin-track-project https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2023/8/alstom-chosen-provide-smartlock-interlocking-and-etcs-irish-rails-cork-area-commuter-rail

A1ACo

Similarly, I thought that I’d start threads – for even more (highly) optimistically (!) Electrified, commuter services – but for the three remaining Rep. of Ireland cities: –

Limerick (LART), Galway (GART), Waterford (WART)

………….

Athlone (AART) (Athlone works — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin' ) would be the next logical electrification commuter area line choice I think, then Kilkenny, Wexford, Sligo,.. maybe in that order.

Sam Russell

I think DART is a recognized brand. It is not good marketing to confuse the issue.

Sam Russell

Mod: I do not think a host of threads which just take the DART name and transpose it is of use.

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178692#Comment_122178692

Nationwide, we averaged 7 level crossing incidents per month in 2023. Presumably, most of these will cause some at least some delay to services on the line. So I think it stands to reason that removing level crossings will reduce the number of delays.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122183382#Comment_122183382

That's probably it but not something I'd agree with. Proper planning for large scale new developments should require the station to be in place first, then the developments.

But we could get stuck in a loop here, with the stations waiting for the development and the development waiting for the stations.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122186361#Comment_122186361

Is there any actual plans for Monard new town?

Tivoli might be decades away yet.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179840#Comment_122179840

L1011 already answered the DART+ projects currently slowly making their way through ABP. But to add some context.

Irish Rail are extremely concerned that electrification won't happen or get seriously delayed, either because the government won't fund it or gets delayed in ABP/courts.

The issue is that the existing fleets are ageing and desperately need replacing, but obviously the electric infrastructure isn't there yet and might not be for years or even a decade to come. The last thing you want is to be forced into a situation where you have no choice to buy new DMU's, but then end up being stuck with them for the next 40 years when you are legally supposed to be de-carbonising.

In a recent video about the new DART+ fleet, a senior person from IR mentions that they are concerned about the new Maynooth depot going to judicial review. I'm sure the same worry will exist for Cork.

There is also an interesting FOI request of a NTA board meeting where some one senior for IR (maybe the CEO, I don't remember), mentions that even if the DART+ infrastructure projects don't get the go ahead, they still have to go ahead with fleet replacement.

It is these concerns that have pushed IR towards BEMU's.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122186361#Comment_122186361

I agree to an extent. However development at Water-rock, Tivoli and Monard, sufficient to support a train station, are a long long long way off.

orangerhyme

Does anyone know exactly the Blackpool station will be?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187199#Comment_122187199

From previous plans it was up Dublin Hill, directly behind Woodies and the car park above it, with a pedestrian bridge connecting the train station to that Woodies building in the retail park.

questionmark?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187104#Comment_122187104

Regarding Waterock, I would like to see that station go ahead. They have already put in the roads/cycle lanes/bus stops plus the water/sewage infrastructure to service Waterock. With planning granted for many of the sites in the area having the infrastructure which includes the train station makes it more attractive. We may see government intervention to build the apartments like we have seen elsewhere so getting that station built in the next two or three years would be prudent. Tivoli and Monard I agree are longer term prospects.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122183382#Comment_122183382

You could be wrong on Water-rock yet: there's a lot of ground work done there. I was thinking maybe the Cobh one?

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187858#Comment_122187858

Sorry I just saw your post. Yep, I think Waterrock stands a chance of coming in the first tranche. Regarding the chicken-and-egg "station first" or "development first", what's happened there is that Phase 1 of Waterrock is allowed to start without the train being in place

marno21

Given Water Rock seems to be fairly advanced in relative terms with the afforementioned road and cycle lanes in, would the 3 stations that are development dependent more likely to be Monard, Tivoli and Ballynoe?

Are the development plans for Ballynoe area in any way publicised?

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188719#Comment_122188719

That was what I had in mind yep, those three. Ballynoe is well discussed between people in Cobh but I've never seen anything formal outside of the local development plan. Waterrock would seem to be well ahead, from my view of it. Online council documentation gives that impression too:

https://www.corkcoco.ie/en/resident/planning-and-development/urban-expansion-areas

Local people tell me specific development is approved in Waterrock and things are currently ramping up for construction, not sure of actual timelines.