Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097373#Comment_120097373

What I would love is if they had co-loacted the bus station there, when they had the chance, so that people are not getting the train, dragging baggage to a shuttle, then dragging baggage to onward bus.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097569#Comment_120097569

Totally agree on all this but there's no reason that Cork should not be running a Luas to suburbs alongside commuter DART to Tivoli.

Either that or literally subsidise massive high rise private builds in the City centre

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097324#Comment_120097324

I agree that something should be done for those commuters. However...

Glanmire-Watergrasshill is not really viable for rail. I know the geography of the area very well: the cost would be enormous. You an get rail to Glanmire from the Midleton/Cobh line alright (at high cost) but North of Glanmire the elevation rises dramatically, and Watergrasshill is one of the highest pieces of the national motorway network (if not THE highest). It's probably something like 180m climb in 9km and it's undulating. So fairly constant climbing for the train, and still a need for tunnels/bridges. It would be extremely expensive for such a small number of end users.

Thus, for Watergrasshill commuters, a bus P&R north of Glanmire, and also a P&R or full "transit hub" at Dunkettle/Tivoli for the train are probably the best options. I would actually be in favour of these, particularly because there's a plan to build/upgrade the hospital at Sallybrook, and an N40 North ring road. Killylough interchange should likely be a major interchange on the road network. It seems logical to me to plan a transit hub there (P&R) right by the Hospital, with high quality mass transit connectivity to the city. It could include rail, though the cost would be very high. More viable would be high frequency buses.

Rathcormac by rail would more realistically need to come via the Mallow line. Fermoy would almost certainly need to come via the Mallow line. That would still be difficult/expensive.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097638#Comment_120097638

You could still co-locate the bus station, as the space is available to the East of Kent. But it's not without its own issues: see the situation of the Galway bus/coach transit hub.

The historical issue in Cork is that the rail station is owned by IÉ, and the bus station is owned by BÉ. If BÉ were to move all operations, IÉ would need to charge them rent. And they were traditionally mandated (since the break-up of CIÉ) to compete for passengers. So IÉ would have effectively been mandated to charge BÉ a fairly high price.

That's a negative result of privatisation, basically. The ideal scenario would have been to separate the rail "network management" and "rolling stock" into two companies, with the state owning the network side. Rail transport outside of Dublin likely wouldn't have survived such a separation.

So a possible solution still available would be for the state to build and manage a new rail/bus/tram transit hub to the East of Kent (and one in Blarney and one in Dunkettle/Tivoli). Whether IÉ and BÉ would move operations would be complex though: they already have their own city stations and such a hub would be desirable/beneficial for the other independent competitor coach operators: so why would IÉ or BÉ move? And the Horgan's Quay land is already probably more valuable to IÉ as property on which to build density (this appears to be the strategy they're following).

Privatisation is difficult, shocker!

Sorry, I hope this is all still on-topic. I find it an interesting problem at least :D

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097638#Comment_120097638

Realistically there are relatively very few people who are dragging baggage from the train and then immediately taking an onwards journey from the bus station. I use Kent most days from East Cork as well as the Dublin train for work occasionally and the vast majority of passengers are commuters going to work/education who certainly aren't dragging baggage.

There's relatively very few dragging baggage from Kent to the bus station. And if there is, they have multiple options to get from the train station to the bus station. Frequent buses as mentioned, taxis or even the short 8-10 minute walk over.

Markcheese

Bus eireann and Irish rail aren't private ,

They're both still owned by CIE, ( I think)

Moving the bus station from Parnell place to Kent, would be a bit bonkers , it's relatively central , it'd be better if there was space for private coaches next to it ,or near by,at least all the coach travel would be centralized,

It's bonkers that there isn't a park and ride transport hub at dunkettle , and south ring orbital / northern distributor (when it's built) orbital , dunkettle is already the main transport hub for cork ..

munchkin_utd

bus eireann and irish rail are still part of the same group (but artificially set up as sworn enemies of each other lest a private bus operator sue someone for being a monopoly) and seemingly the property is all managed by CIE. Maybe CIE is petrified of getting sued if they built a joint bus and rail station ? https://www.cie.ie/en-ie/

The current bus station in Cork is far from a modern facility AND its location is obiously not such a draw factor seeing as the private coaches managed to startup a booming business the "wrong" side of the river nearer the rail station. If CIE were copped on they'd close the current bus station, redevelop it and make a killing on new apartments and offices, and with those millions provide a proper public transport hub by the station.

The benefit of a bus only hub, remote from the rail station, is also massively eroded by the cancelling of through ticketing of Expressway to regional and local services, so people now are going to have to buy 2x tickets to travel via Cork city to beyond

And all that aside.... a whole swathe of Cork bus services stop on the south side of the city anyhow on their way through and the likes of Ballincollig buses are now essentially city buses so they dont serve the bus station any more. The more you dig, the less reason there is to keep that bus station.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098332#Comment_120098332

The two stations are about 700m apart. The word remote seems a bit of reach here. It's about an 8 minute walk with frequent buses also (205 and 214).

I would also say those using the bus arriving from west Cork for example, would not be happy having to stay on the bus through the city centre only to be dropped off further away from the centre than they currently are.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098332#Comment_120098332

Well, CIE or IrishRail/Bus Eireann is currently building a new bus station alongside the rail station in Limerick. I know it replaces another adjacent bus facility. I should think that that Cork has insufficient space for a bus station near the train station: they were so focussed on commercial property development that they neglected their primary role - public transport

getoutadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096368#Comment_120096368

Precisely. Focus on the main intercity and urban lines.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098269#Comment_120098269

Not quite 100% right. They're semi-state and are tasked with behaving as though they were private, as "munchkin_utd" laid out, precisely in case a private bus operator should sue them for behaving as a monopoly. It's what cause this "problem" unfortunately.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099173#Comment_120099173

and reopen lines, both can be done in one of the world's richest countries.

reopening lines does not stop focusing on the main lines and the urban and suburban services that run along part of those main lines.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099509#Comment_120099509

i wonder who are the other shareholders in the semi-states?

if the state is the only shareholder, which i believe it is in the case of CIE, then realistically it's just a semi-state in name only so he would actually be correct really.

but maybe there are other shareholders.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099784#Comment_120099784

Yep I believe the owners of CIÉ are either just the minister and department, or a number of government bodies, but all government. So what makes them semi-state definitely isn't the ownership, as you rightly say!

But their model of semi-state tasks them with autonomy, competition and profit-making (!). Again, munchkin_utd has it spot-on, the whole thing is to keep private coach operators happy. There's almost no chance of CIÉ just telling them both to cooperate, because of privatisation.

As an aside, I think most or all of the old guard are gone now, but the CIÉ personnel from BÉ and IÉ who were close colleagues and used to sit side-by-side in the same offices were effectively told overnight to compete with each other. I've lots of stories about this, where neither of the two was happy about it and resented being told not to cooperate. But they did what they were told.

I guess all I'm saying is that the blame definitely doesn't lie with BÉ and IÉ. And the blame probably doesn't even with CIÉ, from what little I know.

Markcheese

Semi-state doesn't mean part privatized, it means owned by the state but run at arms length ..

Yeah, the term 'semi-state company' is a bit of a weird piece of Irish public sector jargon. 'State owned enterprise' would be a more accurate and less confusing term.

Economics101

If we want a good integrated public transport system (especially for long-distance journeys), then the current competitive setup between IE and BE is to a large extent, nonsense. The role of the NTA should be to have competition for franchises to operate routes. Artguably urban bus services should be the responsiblity of local authorities in conjunction with the NTA. All of this might lead to Bus Eireann losing its raison d'etre.

The small scale of the Irish Rail system means that there is no room for competition: it's basically a natural monopoly, and as such a fairly comprehensive regulatory regime by the NTA is warranted

Basically, there has been little or no thought given to the overall governance and regulatory structure for public transport, just a series of ad hoc decisions on the roles of the NTA, TII, etc.

LXFlyer

Most of Bus Éireann’s commercial Expressway services don’t really compete with IE anymore as they have cut some routes and serve different markets on others.

The NTA set all of the PSO service levels nowadays, so the notion of BE and IE competing on this level is not valid anymore.

I really don’t see the need to move the bus station from Parnell Place. It’s in a good city centre location, and is directly connected from the railway station by the 214 bus, the 205 close by and even more routes under BusConnects which will have a zero penalty LEAP transfer fare.

The 225 and 226 buses to the Airport, Carrigaline, Ringaskiddy and Kinsale already start at the station.

You could perhaps start the West Cork PSO routes 233/236/237/238/239 at the railway station, but that’s really about all that would be necessary.

Economics101

How frequent, quick and reliable are bus links from Kent Station to Parnell place? Is there provision for a free transfer for long-distance rail or bus passengers? Maybe these thing should get sorted out, as well as the possibility of buying a through ticket from Dublin to West Cork. (East Cork is OK as it has rail links)

They’re 750m walk away from each other (less if you use the new entrance on the rear). While it would be handy with luggage it’s not that big a distance - basically 1 tram stop distance.

LXFlyer

The 205 is every 15 mins (starting at the station) and the 214 every 20, but as I say there are far more services planned to serve the railway station under the new BusConnects network - https://busconnects.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Cork-New-Network-Central.pdf

It’s only a 650m walk between the two using the southern exit at Kent Station.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104347#Comment_120104347

The 214 and 205 both go from Kent to the bus station. Very frequent, about every 8-10 minutes, throughout most of the day. A little less frequent in the evening after rush hour.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096368#Comment_120096368

The extension to Youghal is a different kettle of fish than the one from Middleton to Cork. Of course, stations in Castlemartyr and Killeagh there would increase the numbers of daily commuters a little, but this is not the main point.

For me, the difference between Youghal and any other line being re-opened in Co. Cork is the fact that this would be a connection from a good-sized city to a seaside resort. This adds a completely new dimension that would be available to few other places in Ireland (Derry to Buncrana and Belfast to Donaghdee come to mind; as does Waterford to Tramore - this last one is the only one that comes within the remit of CIÉ.

One other thing that I wonder about is why lines like this have to be broad-gauge railway - wouldn't a narrow-gauge light railway do the trick here? Particularly as we are not talking about huge numbers.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120108509#Comment_120108509

having them narrow gauge would mean either different rolling stock that could only serve those parts of the railway, or gauge changing stock which would be doable but would be more expensive to buy and add more complexity.

now if the reopened lines were to be part of a network designed to ultimately serve new places instead rather then be added back into the existing network then you could have them as light rail or something but that won't happen.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120108566#Comment_120108566

I'm not sure that's a major problem. In the past, multiple companies ran narrow-gauge railways around Ireland, most of them unconnected to any other.

Here's one from Co Cork - the Cork and Muskerry Light Railway.

And in fact, doesn't the Luas already run on a different gauge to the rest of our rail network, and this isn't considered too problematic?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120108711#Comment_120108711

the luas is light rail, so it makes sense to operate it as it is as it's a tram system rather then a train which would be heavy rail and ultimately it will grow as it's own network going forward as more lines will be added at some stage.

it's not that it isn't possible to operate reopened heavy rail lines as narrow gauge, it is just that it doesn't make sense as it means extra complexity and removes the ability to operate more direct services.

FrankLeeSpeaking

A meter gauge connection to get the kiddies to the sea side? Sorry but this incredibly bizarre suggestion. Am I actually reading this or are you having a laugh?

I think the reasons for no extension to Youghal is the demand isn't there for a commuter rail service. Simple as that. I am a firm believer in the 'build it and they will come' approach with railways, but not in every case. Youghal would not be viable. Also there is basically wilderness between Middletown and Youghal and that is a long distance for a commuter line.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104347#Comment_120104347

In Belfast, Translink offer free connections into the city centre from Lanyon Place for alighting railway passengers and the distance into town is less than 1km

Whatever we're doing with trams and trains we should be aiming to go with absolute standardisation to reduce costs.

The problem with running light rail trams on the Cork commuter rail networks are fairly obviously.

1. High platforms make it impossible for modern trams to use stations. There are solutions to this - you could for example just fill in the platforms and use long, low incline ramped rails at either side, but that's also not that cheap to do, but we only have a handful of existing stations and it means any intermediate stops become a lot cheaper to do as they're just flat.
2. 1600mm gauge is used on the heavy rail network, which would mean you'd have to either replace the lines on the railways or build the tramways to an odd spec, which means custom trams and puts the costs up.
3. You can't safely mix light rail trams and heavy rail trains. So it would render the Cork-Mallow commuter links basically impossible on those lines.

In general trains and trams tend to stay on one route anyway and don't swap around much. So, it all becomes a bit pointless. Easy interchange between trains and busses now and future trams is more relevant.

ricimaki

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112950#Comment_120112950

Starting with a standard gauge tram system, and opening commuter rail services is exactly what's needed. It's taking a long time to get the basics in place, but hopefully people (and importantly politicians) will see the benefits, and start pushing for extensions to services. Unfortunately it all takes a long time to get going.

Just to elaborate on tram-trains though, as they would be ideal for Cork.

The model for tram-train systems was developed in a city the same size as Cork; Karlsruhe, Germany. They solved points 1 and 3 nearly 30 years ago. The system is very extensive, and has impressive ridership numbers for a relatively small city. Gauge change isn't ideal, but has been solved before. Australia ran dual-gauge track from 1600mm-1435mm. Gauge change trains are an option too (probably not gauge change trams though...).

Not going to happen for many decades - if at all...

Yeah, a proper tram system would be ideal for Cork and it could be grown out over time.

Unfortunately, I think Irish policy makers attitudes to public transport technologies is that they belong in other countries and that electrification outside of Dublin is unimaginably advanced for 'down the country'.

We've a mindset that keeps us decades behind the rest of Europe on this stuff. It's almost like we've a public transport philosophy from 1950s small town America.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104347#Comment_120104347

In my opinion, integrated ticketing and integrated ticket pricing will go a lot further than any new services, to join up the Cork public transport system.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112950#Comment_120112950

But I didn't suggest it for Cork-Mallow, only for the Youghal line. Many countries have different gauges for trams and heavy railway. It isn't a huge issue - and in fact we do too, Luas runs on a standard gauge, while our rail network runs on a broader gauge.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120115726#Comment_120115726

The Luas is completely separate to the rest of the railway network, whereas your proposed narrow gauge extension to Youghal would be part of the same network as the rest of the Cork Suburban railway. A narrow gauge extension to Youghal is a complete non-runner.

Markcheese

I think a midleton Ballincolig tram would be amazing - an east west transport spine ,

That'll allow a couple of tram stops in Tivoli , new stations will be much cheaper , and the level crossing in midleton can be traffic lights ,or simpler causing less issues at rush hour , ( extra trains will mean the gates are closed almost permanently ) as well as allowing midleton station to become disabled access.

Keep mallow to Cobh as standard rail ..

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120115726#Comment_120115726

we know, but unless you are going to connect youghal to a different, new network that is standard gauge then you are either increasing cost and complexity to connect it to the existing heavy rail network or you are changing people off trains at midleton which makes no sense and won't be tolerated quite rightly.

that is why reopening it as standard gauge won't work if it was to reopen.

again yes luas does operate to standard gauge but it is a tram system and couldn't interoperate with the heavy rail network anyway even if it was the same gauge.

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104347#Comment_120104347

According to TfL, there are 10 interconnects on the London Underground system where the walking distance between platforms is at least 7 minutes. When I worked at an Intel facility in Oregon, it used to take 10+ minutes at lunch time just to walk to the canteen in the next building. Google Maps estimates 8 minutes to walk between Kent and Parnell Place. Call me crazy but…

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118203#Comment_120118203

With development at Tivoli and further east, the Midleton line would likely be over-capacity for a tram system which would be constrained by the situation west of Kent. Light rail being cheaper is a false economy in this case, the cost of adding new heavy rail stations would be a lot less than rebuilding all stations for light rail. You'd also need to buy and whole new light rail fleet. Leaving as heavy rail would be better value and higher capacity.

Light rail for the proposed east/west route makes sense. I think in future they should also look at a tram using half the South Link Road then splitting after Black Ash, one branch to the airport and another over towards Douglas.

pigtown

Is there any talk of rebranding the network in the same way the Dart was?

Markcheese

I doubt theres any chance of a hypothetical mideton bcollig light rail being over capacity ( comparing it to the luas )

Although there is a strong chance that it would have far higher usership than electrified midleton- Kent and Kent to b'colig combined ,

Just from sheer ease of use , I'd be more likely to use through transport for a short than transfer . And people don't like more than 2 transfers..

marno21

Given the long list of rail projects well overdue in Cork, ripping up perfectly good railway tracks to put down tram tracks seems like a desperate waste of money.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118597#Comment_120118597

I think the Cobh line used to be "Arrow" (or maybe it just had "Arrow" rolling stock!) but I've never heard of any other branding effort.

Unless you're just joking, in which case CART would indeed be a great name for the mass transit system.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118532#Comment_120118532

Yep that South Link Road used to be the train and it would be great if it was possible to revert it to some kind of train or tram use use but obviously a very big engineering project unfortunately. A tram to the airport would be well used: the business park alone generates many commuters.

pigtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119051#Comment_120119051

Not joking. A branded service has a much stronger appeal.

Hopefully not Cart😅

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118879#Comment_120118879

Who said rip them up ? This is a pie in the sky discussion 😀😀😀

Dual guaging to Cobh cross , and there'll be all sorts of changes made in the hundred years before it'd be done ,

And that's assuming that a city b'collig tram gets done before that hundred years , it's likely to start life as a bus route ..

Economics101

The talk of putting light rail on existing heavy rail routes and even of mixed gauges is just a total load of nonsense. I'm sure there are routes in the Cork area quite suitable for light rail, but almost certainly these are in areas totally devoid of any rail services at present.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118597#Comment_120118597

If it's left to CIE to brand it, you can expect some confusing mess - "InterCity Local" or something utterly daft.

The whole Cork urban bus and rail network should be a single, Cork specific brand. It also gets away from the nonsense that they're all distinct from each other and not part of a single unified system. There's a lot of psychology communicated in the way we do branding.

end of the road

@hans aus dtschl

the stock that currently operates the cork suburban is the original arrow stock.

the arrow brand was removed in the 2000s and replaced with the commuter brand.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119051#Comment_120119051

Honestly , C.A.R.T. is too good an opportunity to pass up ..

Or CLUAS in an little ear logo if they do a tram ..

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120158#Comment_120120158

light rail on the midleton line would be pointless - unless it was to link through to a Kent -balincollig rail .. ( so don't hold your breath,

Having a single east - west transport spine would increase journey numbers ,

And a through mallow- Cobh with new stations in blarney and blackpool , and possibly a new station at rushbrook meeting the cross river ferry ..

cgcsb

On branding, the light rail will like be luas same as Dublin but no doubt locals will make some cluas quips, when the first line is built I don't think the second will be far behind, perhaps a north-south route.

I myself don't see what's wrong with CART? I would also be happy to see Belfast commuter services rebounded as BART. Why is it a problem?