Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

marno21

Consultants to be appointed this month for the Cork Suburban Rail project. Here's what was proposed in CMATS:

8 new stations at Blarney, Monard, Kilbarry, Tivoli, Dunkettle (P&R), Carrigtwohill West, Water Rock & Ballynoe.
10km of double tracking between Glounthane & Midleton
Electrification of the network
10 min frequency Glounthane-Midleton/Cobh, 5 min frequency Kent-Glounthane, 10 min frequency Kent-Blarney
22 new 2 car train sets required
62km of overall network

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40290341.html

MyLove4Satan

marno21 wrote: »

Consultants to be appointed this month for the Cork Suburban Rail project. Here's what was proposed in CMATS:

8 new stations at Blarney, Monard, Kilbarry, Tivoli, Dunkettle (P&R), Carrigtwohill West, Water Rock & Ballynoe.
10km of double tracking between Glounthane & Midleton
Electrification of the network
10 min frequency Glounthane-Midleton/Cobh, 5 min frequency Kent-Glounthane, 10 min frequency Kent-Blarney
22 new 2 car train sets required
62km of overall network

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40290341.html

Wow that would be fantastic! Surprised the electrification was even suggested.

Peregrine

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Wow that would be fantastic! Surprised the electrification was even suggested.

Yes, electrification by 2040.

Some improvements are planned to be finished by 2031 and the remaining by 2040. Absolute joke.

Corkonians should be calling for the CART to be finished by 2030!

MyLove4Satan

Peregrine wrote: »

Yes, electrification by 2040.

Some improvements are planned to be finished by 2031 and the remaining by 2040. Absolute joke.

Corkonians should be calling for the CART to be finished by 2030!

Ah, like the 1973 Dublin Rail Plan... Even so, folks in Cork can't complain about being left behind for Dublin anymore as they'll be just as lied to.

IE 222

I presume the €274 is new stations and the double track sections and use 2900s.

namloc1980

marno21 wrote: »

Consultants to be appointed this month for the Cork Suburban Rail project. Here's what was proposed in CMATS:

8 new stations at Blarney, Monard, Kilbarry, Tivoli, Dunkettle (P&R), Carrigtwohill West, Water Rock & Ballynoe.
10km of double tracking between Glounthane & Midleton
Electrification of the network
10 min frequency Glounthane-Midleton/Cobh, 5 min frequency Kent-Glounthane, 10 min frequency Kent-Blarney
22 new 2 car train sets required
62km of overall network

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40290341.html

2040 is such an unambitious timeline to deliver network improvements - it's actually embarrassingly slow given the wider context and need to drive sustainable solutions now. Anyway I don't think those things will actually be delivered even by 2040. In reality I would expect the following to actually happen by then:

New stations in Blarney, Kilbarry and Water Rock,
No double tracking to Midleton,
No electrification,
Maybe 20 minute frequency - no chance of 5/10 minute frequency,
Some new sets.

Pete_Cavan

They should push ahead with Blarney station and Dunkettle P&R as individual projects, not as part of the large project which is going to take years to advance. They should be straightforward and have the existing passing trains stop at them. Maybe I am wrong in this assumption but I would have thought they'd be easy from signalling, etc pov as trains previously stopped in these locations.

Dunkettle P&R really should be opening with the completion of the interchange works, once people start using the freeflow interchange it will be much harder to win them over to pt, even if it is faster.

Chris_5339762

20 years to basically electrify and SLOW DOWN trains from Cobh. Marvelous.

Now granted, you can see why, as they are adding extra stations, but its still a bit nuts really. Increased line speeds please.

AngryLips

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

20 years to basically electrify and SLOW DOWN trains from Cobh. Marvelous.

Now granted, you can see why, as they are adding extra stations, but its still a bit nuts really. Increased line speeds please.

Would speed be a priority? This is a suburban service where frequency and reliability would be higher priority, you're not talking Dublin-Belfast here.

namloc1980

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

They should push ahead with Blarney station and Dunkettle P&R as individual projects, not as part of the large project which is going to take years to advance. They should be straightforward and have the existing passing trains stop at them. Maybe I am wrong in this assumption but I would have thought they'd be easy from signalling, etc pov as trains previously stopped in these locations.

Dunkettle P&R really should be opening with the completion of the interchange works, once people start using the freeflow interchange it will be much harder to win them over to pt, even if it is faster.

They should but they probably won't. This article from 2006 says the Dunkettle P&R would open in 2008. :pac: It's this sort of stuff that makes me very pessimistic about what will be delivered under CMATS. So many promises go undelivered.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20013741.html

"The park-and-ride facility — which is set to become operational in conjunction with the reopening of the commuter rail line in 2008"

cgcsb

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

20 years to basically electrify and SLOW DOWN trains from Cobh. Marvelous.

Now granted, you can see why, as they are adding extra stations, but its still a bit nuts really. Increased line speeds please.

How exactly will trains from Cobh be slowed down? 3 additional stations between Cobh and Kent are proposed with electrification the journey time would be about the same but the frequency of service will be improved.

cgcsb

Agreed, the time line is a pure humiliation. Commuter rail was electrified across Europe by the 1950s, this will put Cork about 90 years behind the continent in this regard. The plan it's self is also unambitous. No plans for new commuter lines in the next 20 years? Somehow, according to government policy, we're supposed to get near carbon neutrality by 2050 without a single new rail line in the whole country? how could that be?

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

Agreed, the time line is a pure humiliation. Commuter rail was electrified across Europe by the 1950s, this will put Cork about 90 years behind the continent in this regard. The plan it's self is also unambitous. No plans for new commuter lines in the next 20 years? Somehow, according to government policy, we're supposed to get near carbon neutrality by 2050 without a single new rail line in the whole country? how could that be?

Electric Vehicles, given Irelands very rural and dispersed population, it will be the primary way to decarbonise our transport sector. Rail will play it's part of course, along with Electric/Hyrdrogen buses and coaches, but it isn't realistic to think that we could build rail to every corner of Ireland and replace cars, given our population dispersion.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

Electric Vehicles, given Irelands very rural and dispersed population, it will be the primary way to decarbonise our transport sector. Rail will play it's part of course, along with Electric/Hyrdrogen buses and coaches, but it isn't realistic to think that we could build rail to every corner of Ireland and replace cars, given our population dispersion.

Ireland 2040 sets out a strategy of urbanising the population over the next 20 years, something which is happening anyway although currently in an unplanned way. The proportion of people living in rural areas will continue to decline.

Nobody is advocating for rail 'to every corner of Ireland'. But the exact opposite of that, no new rail is hardly conducive to a low carbon society/economy. In this context suburban rail in a metropolitan area is hardly 'every corner of Ireland'.

Electrification of transport has a role to play but the vast bulk of heavy lifting in reducing emissions from transport is by reducing the need for transport and making that transport as sustainable as possible, i.e. having more people live closer to work and amenities. At the end of the day not every family will be able to afford an electric car and that wouldn't be desireable from a planning or environmental perspective anyway.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

Ireland 2040 sets out a strategy of urbanising the population over the next 20 years, something which is happening anyway although currently in an unplanned way. The proportion of people living in rural areas will continue to decline.

Nobody is advocating for rail 'to every corner of Ireland'. But the exact opposite of that, no new rail is hardly conducive to a low carbon society/economy. In this context suburban rail in a metropolitan area is hardly 'every corner of Ireland'.

Electrification of transport has a role to play but the vast bulk of heavy lifting in reducing emissions from transport is by reducing the need for transport and making that transport as sustainable as possible, i.e. having more people live closer to work and amenities. At the end of the day not every family will be able to afford an electric car and that wouldn't be desireable from a planning or environmental perspective anyway.

First of all EV's won't be any more expensive then petrol/diesel cars are today. In fact in the next 10 years, they are expected to become cheaper. If a family can afford a car today, they can afford an EV in future.

For those who can't afford a car, they will continue to walk/cycle and take buses, trams and trains just like they do today, though hopefully all will be electric/hydorgen buses or trains.

I agree that we will continue to see our cities grow, but realistically we will also see the population in rural Ireland continue to grow too.

Working From Home has become big under Covid and will continue, National Broadband Scheme and just how unaffordable housing in our cities has become will unfortunately all force people out into dispersed one off rural homes.

It sucks and is a complete failure of our planning process and political leadership. But unfortunately I don't expect it to radically change any time soon.

Don't get me wrong, I mostly agree with you. But just that realistically the main focus on de-carbonising our transport will be EV's.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

First of all EV's won't be any more expensive then petrol/diesel cars are today. In fact in the next 10 years, they are expected to become cheaper. If a family can afford a car today, they can afford an EV in future.

For those who can't afford a car, they will continue to walk/cycle and take buses, trams and trains just like they do today, though hopefully all will be electric/hydorgen buses or trains.

I agree that we will continue to see our cities grow, but realistically we will also see the population in rural Ireland continue to grow too.

Working From Home has become big under Covid and will continue, National Broadband Scheme and just how unaffordable housing in our cities has become will unfortunately all force people out into dispersed one off rural homes.

It sucks and is a complete failure of our planning process and political leadership. But unfortunately I don't expect it to radically change any time soon.

Don't get me wrong, I mostly agree with you. But just that realistically the main focus on de-carbonising our transport will be EV's.

I don't think it's realistic for every western world family to have at least one EV. given the scarcity of the elements needed to build the batteries required. Also owning a fossil fuel car is becoming increasingly unafordable, particularly for young people. The number of people aged 17 to 24 with a drivers license has been declining steadily. I could forsee communities sharing cars as an affordable method of rural mobility.

Also rural Ireland is not growing it's shrinking and that's likely to continue, some councils are now very strict (although not enough of them) on rural house building, not to mention the shrinking employment opportunities in rural areas. Remote working is great and all but post pandemic, I can't see it being a permanent solution, maybe most will do a half and half.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

I don't think it's realistic for every western world family to have at least one EV. given the scarcity of the elements needed to build the batteries required. Also owning a fossil fuel car is becoming increasingly unafordable, particularly for young people. The number of people aged 17 to 24 with a drivers license has been declining steadily. I could forsee communities sharing cars as an affordable method of rural mobility.

First of all, the idea that EV's require scare resources is a pretty bull**** one largely pushed by the oil industry (ironically).

Most of the elements that make up batteries are incredibly abundant. Lithium is the 25th most common element on Earth. Cobalt is troublesome due to terrible conditions related to mining it, but most battery companies are moving away from it. For instance BYD batteries contain no Cobalt.

There are over 2 million cars in Ireland. That is almost 1 for every 2 people. That isn't going to radically change in future.

I say all this as some one who doesn't own a car (out of choice, not because I can't afford it) and I'm living the dream you are talking about, live in an apartment, walk/cycle/bus to places and very happy doing so.

But I'm not so naive to think most Irish people will give up their cars. Instead the focus needs to be on decarbonising them, while simultaneously making walking/cycling/public transport more attractive.

namloc1980

In a Cork context if the focus will be on EVs, it will just leave us in the same position we are today. Swapping ICE vehicles for EVs means similar levels of traffic with the same number or even more cars on the roads. Sure we'll be "carbon neutral" but at what cost - same old same traffic on the roads. Kind of depressing really.

The proposals for Cork suburban rail are utterly unambitious and the timelines are, frankly, embarrassing.

hans aus dtschl

bk wrote: »

But I'm not so naive to think most Irish people will give up their cars. Instead the focus needs to be on decarbonising them, while simultaneously making walking/cycling/public transport more attractive.

We also urgently need to incentivise people to leave their cars outside of the central urban areas. I know a lot of people who currently commute via the city centre because the N40 and Dunkettle are too congested. This must end, it's not a viable medium-term or long-term transport solution.

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

We also urgently need to incentivise people to leave their cars outside of the central urban areas. I know a lot of people who currently commute via the city centre because the N40 and Dunkettle are too congested. This must end, it's not a viable medium-term or long-term transport solution.

Perhaps it’s time for the London approach.

Turn both bores of the JLT into a 4 lane one direction route and build a 4 lane bridge for the other direction. Lane drops at Bloomfield and Mahon and down to 2 lanes for the Douglas flyover.

(I joke but it’s also time to consider the North Ring Road for network redundancy. There’s far too much traffic, especially freight, for the city centre to be the main alternative route).

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

Perhaps it’s time for the London approach.

Turn both bores of the JLT into a 4 lane one direction route and build a 4 lane bridge for the other direction. Lane drops at Bloomfield and Mahon and down to 2 lanes for the Douglas flyover.

(I joke but it’s also time to consider the North Ring Road for network redundancy. There’s far too much traffic, especially freight, for the city centre to be the main alternative route).

Yeah there needs to be a NRR.
Northern Distributor can wait for a nice while yet. But the N40 South is a lost cause. They need to forget about upgrading it and start thinking about how they're going to get short distance commuters off it.

With regards suburban rail:
A commute between Mahon/Blackrock/Douglas and Little Island/Glanmire/Carrigtohill is single-option transport system right now. It's cars only. There is no joined-up transport solution other than cars. If there was a tram to Mahon, connecting with Kent, a new Dunkettle P&R and an actual way for people to get to Carrigtohill train station that didn't involve jumping into a ditch it would make a dent. Good news though: for now we have prioritised....more cars on the N40. A few more sticking plasters should cure it!

namloc1980

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Yeah there needs to be a NRR.
Northern Distributor can wait for a nice while yet. But the N40 South is a lost cause. They need to forget about upgrading it and start thinking about how they're going to get short distance commuters off it.

With regards suburban rail:
A commute between Mahon/Blackrock/Douglas and Little Island/Glanmire/Carrigtohill is single-option transport system right now. It's cars only. There is no joined-up transport solution other than cars. If there was a tram to Mahon, connecting with Kent, a new Dunkettle P&R and an actual way for people to get to Carrigtohill train station that didn't involve jumping into a ditch it would make a dent. Good news though: for now we have prioritised....more cars on the N40. A few more sticking plasters should cure it!

CMATS and BusConnects "should" allow for a connection from Carrigtwohill to Douglas via the proposed Dunkettle P&R and a Bus corridor from Dunkettle via the JLT to Mahon, Douglas. The pedestrian/cycle access to Carrigtwohill train station seriously needs to be sorted out but I believe that is planned for once the road through Castlelake is completed and the schools are up and running (still a few years away though).

marno21

Funding for electrification and new stations included in the Government’s National Recovery and Resilience Plan today to our surprise

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40303445.html

cgcsb

Does this mean it'll happen sooner than 2040?

marno21

cgcsb wrote: »

Does this mean it'll happen sooner than 2040?

Should happen fairly soon if they are announcing it now.

Not a whole lot of design involved here

loyatemu

does that definitely include electrification?

namloc1980

Great news, the devil will be in the detail. The blurb on the gov.ie has more info but doesn't include electrification just that this will enable future electrification. Includes through platform in Kent, double tracking Midleton and resignaling:

Future Electrification Through Targeted Investment in Cork commuter Rail, providing significant capacity increases on the Cork Area Commuter Rail network, including construction of a through platform at Kent Station, line doubling between Glounthaune and Midleton, and re-signalling, with a view to future electrification.

Seems like a lot to be getting for €185m: 3 new stations, double tracking from Glounthanue to Midleton, resignaling and a new through platform at Kent.

Peregrine

marno21 wrote: »

Funding for electrification and new stations included in the Government’s National Recovery and Resilience Plan today to our surprise

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40303445.html

They did a Kylemore again. There won't be any new stations built now and electrification is still many years away.

"The money will be spent in upgrading the lines on the north of Kent Station, allowing for the construction of long-mooted stations at Blackpool, Tivoli and Blarney."

"This is big money that will enable commuter rail all the way from Mallow to Midleton and Cobh, laying the groundwork for new stops at Blarney, Blackpool and Tivoli."

This looks like what the money is going towards but this is significantly different to what the Examiner says about upgrading lines north of Kent.

"providing significant capacity increases on the Cork Area Commuter Rail network, including construction of a through platform at Kent Station, line doubling between Glounthaune and Midleton, and re-signalling, with a view to future electrification"

cgcsb wrote: »

Does this mean it'll happen sooner than 2040?

Some elements were supposed to finish before that. Here's the timeline from CMATS. This is a funding commitment to the Kent station upgrade which was supposed to be completed in 2026. Probably still on track to the completed by 2026. Double tracking to Midleton was only supposed to be completed by 2040. If this is being brought forward then that's a big win. Perhaps the passing loops north of Kent that were to be built by 2031 is included in this as well.

loyatemu wrote: »

does that definitely include electrification?

Absolutely not!

namloc1980

This is what it appears it actually includes:

- construction of a through platform at Kent Station,
- line doubling between Glounthaune and Midleton,
- re-signalling,

It doesn't appear to include electrification or any new stations. Examiner jumping the gun.

1huge1

Could someone explain to me how Kent is not already a "through station".

Or is this just the construction of a platform designated for through traffic, whereas at present they all terminate at Kent. Presumably due to intercity and commuter traffic going on the same line?

namloc1980

1huge1 wrote: »

Could someone explain to me how Kent is not already a "through station".

Or is this just the construction of a platform designated for through traffic, whereas at present they all terminate at Kent. Presumably due to intercity and commuter traffic going on the same line?

Yeah I think it's to have a 3rd through platform to avoid issues with Intercity trains.

This image from CMATS gives you an idea of where it'll be - on the outside of the main station where the commuter train in the second image is running on the left of the picture.