Landlord passed away, tenant can't contact anyone?

cormie

Hey,
I'm posting on behalf of a friend who is in a bit of an odd spot. They have been renting the same place for at least the last 7 years from what I remember. They were trying to get in touch with the landlord at one stage but weren't having any luck. About a month went by with still no luck. They had no other form of contact for anyone related to the property or the landlord. They checked RIP.ie as the landlord did have some health issues and they actually saw that he had passed away.

I believe the only family the landlord had, was his father. I think the father actually rang my friend a while after and asked her to just pay into the same account. The father hasn't been contactable since and there's some things that needed doing in the place like the heating and water had issues over winter etc. I think a payment bounced too but my friend has since stopped paying the rent and is just keeping it aside if it is at some stage requested and if there's any maintenance she might need it for too or if anything happens where she can't get her deposit back etc.

It's been a few months now and she's contacted PRTB and another crowd I think to see if there's any contacts they can give, but privacy laws mean they wouldn't be able to anyway. She hasn't gotten anywhere since.

She's also having issues with some neighbours who moved in recently who are being very loud so she had been considering leaving if the money is eventually going to be demanded off her. She'd of course put up with it if she's under no obligation to pay rent as it's only a few nights a week that they are being noisy.

I told her I'd post here to see if there's any advice for her on what to do. If it continued on like this for another few months where she isn't paying rent but is saving it, what can happen? If the landlord had not willed the property to anyone, what will happen in that case? Can she be kicked out? Would she have any claim over it?

Any feedback on this would be great

antoinolachtnai

She doesn’t have a claim over the property. If there is no heir the property goes to the State.

If she wants to leave she can and should give notice.

If she can’t make contact with the family any other way she could try the undertaker.

If there is essential work that needs to be done she can do it and deduct the fair costs from the rent.

cormie

Thanks for the reply!

She was actually thinking the undertaker might have details, but then we were thinking they may not be able to give out any details due to privacy laws again?

What if things just continue as they are I wonder? As in, she just puts the rent into her own savings account rather than paying it, and just paid maintenance herself on anything she needed? If that continued for the next 10 years, or how long could it continue for, what could eventually happen? Could she be forced to pay over 100K in unpaid rent or would she just be evicted by executors of the state if they eventually take ownership and how long could that process take I wonder?

covidcustomer

How long ago did the LL die?

catrionanic

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the reply!

She was actually thinking the undertaker might have details, but then we were thinking they may not be able to give out any details due to privacy laws again?

What if things just continue as they are I wonder? As in, she just puts the rent into her own savings account rather than paying it, and just paid maintenance herself on anything she needed? If that continued for the next 10 years, or how long could it continue for, what could eventually happen? Could she be forced to pay over 100K in unpaid rent or would she just be evicted by executors of the state if they eventually take ownership and how long could that process take I wonder?

By not paying the rent, she is in breach of her tenancy agreement and is forfeiting her right to a notice period etc. She could be kicked out tomorrow if the landlord so decides.

The landlord can also come after her for the unpaid rent and likely will do if it amasses to a significant amount. She would also be liable for court costs and legal fees in addition to the unpaid rent.

If it is not in her tenancy agreement that she can deduct money from the rent for maintence then she shouldn't, as she would also be in breach of her agreement for paying less than the agreed monthly amount..

Basically your friend needs to continue to lodge the money each month even it bounces, so she has a paper trail of attempted rent payments. She also should continue to try to get in contact with the New landlord and keep evidence of these attempts.

She is only digging a very big and potentially very costly hole for herself otherwise. A ticket to rent-free living this is not.

If she was paying rent into the bank it should be pretty easy to find out which branch it is. Write to the bank explaining who she is and that she has attempted to transfer money into the account but it’s bounced back and ask them to forward her details to the executor of the estate.

Meeoow

Is there an address on rip.ie?
He may have reposed at his father house.
Really bad form to not pay rent under the circumstances. The father probably doesn't have access to the sons bank account and isn't aware there is a problem. The death certs can take over a year to arrive.

BorneTobyWilde

She should just put the money away, and wait for someone to contact her. Or give notice that she's leaving, and waiting for her deposit back. Then its LL's problem if he doesn't respond and doesn't give her deposit back.

Meeoow

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

She should just put the money away, and wait for someone to contact her. Or give notice that she's leaving, and waiting for her deposit back. Then its LL's problem if he doesn't respond and doesn't give her deposit back.

Who is going to contact her?
The ll is dead. The father may not be able to access his sons bank account until he gets the death certificate, which can take ages.
The bank aren't going to contact her about arrears if there is a mortgage, as they have no contract with her.
When you say the last payment she made bounced, do you mean from her side or his bank?

liam7831

Why is your "friend" so worried about the LL family situation. Just pay the rent and keep any receipts of anything that need doing urgently.

dennyk

catrionanic wrote: »

By not paying the rent, she is in breach of her tenancy agreement and is forfeiting her right to a notice period etc. She could be kicked out tomorrow if the landlord so decides.

That's not how that works. The landlord (whoever that actually is at this point) can issue them a 28-day notice of rent arrears (yes, 28 days, not the 14 it used to be; it changed recently...), and if the arrears is not paid within those 28 days, then the landlord can issue a further 28-day notice of termination. If the arrears is paid within the first 28-day period, the landlord cannot serve a termination notice on the grounds of rent arrears.

There are no circumstances in which a tenant "could be kicked out tomorrow" having not been served any notice of termination previously. Even in severe cases of anti-social behaviour and such, a seven-day notice is required.

catrionanic wrote: »

The landlord can also come after her for the unpaid rent and likely will do if it amasses to a significant amount. She would also be liable for court costs and legal fees in addition to the unpaid rent.

This is true, though the latter is only the case if it actually goes to court (which would only happen if she ignored the notice of arrears and then ignored the subsequent termination order and failed to either pay rent or vacate, or if she did vacate but failed to pay the arrears).

catrionanic wrote: »

If it is not in her tenancy agreement that she can deduct money from the rent for maintence then she shouldn't, as she would also be in breach of her agreement for paying less than the agreed monthly amount..

This is also true; the right to deduct the cost of repairs from the rent isn't recognised here. She can pay out of pocket for necessary repairs if the landlord doesn't fix them within a reasonable period of time (Threshold, though obviously not a primary nor an unbiased source, have suggested time periods for various repairs) and can then pursue the landlord for reasonable costs herself via the RTB or the court, but deducting those costs from her rent payments will put her in arrears and put her tenancy at risk regardless of the landlord's breach of obligations.

catrionanic wrote: »

Basically your friend needs to continue to lodge the money each month even it bounces, so she has a paper trail of attempted rent payments. She also should continue to try to get in contact with the New landlord and keep evidence of these attempts.

She is only digging a very big and potentially very costly hole for herself otherwise. A ticket to rent-free living this is not.

Yep, that's the best path to follow for anyone in this situation. Continue paying the rent on the due date into the last bank account provided. Often it can take a fair bit of time to probate an estate, and the deceased's bank account may remain active for accepting payments during the probate period. If the payments are eventually returned because the account is closed or frozen, though, then the best thing to do would actually be to start putting that rent money aside as the OP's friend has been doing, but keep it there rather than using it to pay for maintenance (and don't even think of running off with it, or the estate or heirs will likely chase you down for the arrears eventually).

Eventually the estate will be sorted and someone will end up with the property (whether that's a bank or one of the heirs) and will eventually make contact with the tenant. Or the executor of the estate might get in touch to serve notice to the tenant if the property needs to be sold in order to settle the estate. At that point (after doing your due diligence and properly vetting and verifying whoever contacts you, of course), you can settle up any arrears and get information about where to start paying your rent from then on. (Even if you are given notice by the new owner or the executor, you must of course continue paying your rent until you actually vacate...)

cormie

Thanks for all the replies! I don't think it's bad form to not pay the rent in her situation at all, she has needed to pay for plumbers and other maintenance out of her own pocket. She's keeping the rent money aside and using it for any maintenance. She's also now in a position where she wants to apply for rent relief as the industry she works has been badly affected with covid. She's saying she can't apply for this without the LL's info.

She has told me the LL's dad did contact her and say he'd be in touch within a week but her phone broke and she didn't have his number saved to her sim so she lost it. She's kept the same number the whole time, but he hasn't been back in touch and she hasn't yet found a way to contact him or anyone else with any say.

She also confirmed she has been there since 2009 and that's when she got her only ever tenancy agreement while living there.

She's asking if she wanted to leave tomorrow, how and who could she give notice to?

Any more input would be great

Mr. Incognito

She has told me the LL's dad did contact her and say he'd be in touch within a week but her phone broke and she didn't have his number saved to her sim so she lost it.



Yeah.......

I don't believe you/her.

In short you will get away with it for about a year. There's a reason all the banks left. It's nearly impossible to evict people in arrears.

But eventually if she doesn't pay her rent they will.

Graham

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies! I don't think it's bad form to not pay the rent in her situation at all, she has needed to pay for plumbers and other maintenance out of her own pocket. She's keeping the rent money aside and using it for any maintenance.

That's some amount of plumbing and maintenance that it warrants retaining the entire rent for a few months.

There's nothing in any of your posts that suggests that's appropriate or justified.

JustAThought

Phone broken, number lost, think ll might be dead, not bothering to pay rent and planning to freeload for years it seems. How convenient.

Well they can persued through the courts for breech of contract by the solicitor representing the estate - if indeed the LL is even dead.

Hopefully they’ll be crucified in the courts - too many opportunistic freeloaders out there.

No doubt the family solicitor will be delighted to do it. Should stop them trying something like this on again - particularly from an elderly, sick man.

If everything you say is true.

How did people become such freeloaders and at whose knee did they learn to have such sewer values.

catrionanic

catrionanic wrote: »

The landlord can also come after her for the unpaid rent and likely will do if it amasses to a significant amount.

As part of a zombie invasion?

JustAThought

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As part of a zombie invasion?

Through their executors and probate solicitor - no doubt the family will be particularly happy to see someone cheating an elderly and terminally ill man being f’ed over and crimanlised. And rightly so. And a solicitor will hardly let the opportunity pass by - more earnings for them and they can’t have their professionalism called into question by closing their eyes to a debt due to the estate.

cormie

Thanks for the replies. I'm posting this on her behalf to try and get some relevant info so if we can focus on that and less of the jumping to conclusions that would be great. I appreciate the helpful input so far. I'm doing this as a favour to her so not interested in getting into any back and forth's

Would anyone know, given that her income has been slashed, how can she apply for rent relief in the current situation with a deceased landlord and without knowing the actual status of the property whether it has actually been given in a will, whether it's mortgage free (she suspects so as she said the LL owned several properties) etc?

Also if she does prefer to move out, who can she give notice to, what should her steps be with that?

An Ri rua

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As part of a zombie invasion?

Whoever owns the house is the landlord. As long as there's a tenant, there will always be a landlord. So your joke fails.
This tenant is a sitting tenant whose rights, and responsibilities, remain.

cormie

JustAThought wrote: »

cheating an elderly and terminally ill

I'm sorry, but where have you gotten this from? You've said it twice now and it's inaccurate and is throwing the discussion off kilter.

An Ri rua

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. I'm posting this on her behalf to try and get some relevant info so if we can focus on that and less of the jumping to conclusions that would be great. I appreciate the helpful input so far. I'm doing this as a favour to her so not interested in getting into any back and forth's

Would anyone know, given that her income has been slashed, how can she apply for rent relief in the current situation with a deceased landlord and without knowing the actual status of the property whether it has actually been given in a will, whether it's mortgage free (she suspects so as she said the LL owned several properties) etc?

Also if she does prefer to move out, who can she give notice to, what should her steps be with that?

'Owning' several properties is a colloquial way of saying has a number of mortgages. Often.

Use the Property Registration Authority and find the owner of the house, and potentially the original mortgage lender, for €5.
Contact that bank, contact the solicitor on the original lease.
Search Google and Facebook for family contacts mentioned in RIP.ie.
If she's serious about fulfilling her obligations.

...Ghost...

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies! I don't think it's bad form to not pay the rent in her situation at all, she has needed to pay for plumbers and other maintenance out of her own pocket. She's keeping the rent money aside and using it for any maintenance. She's also now in a position where she wants to apply for rent relief as the industry she works has been badly affected with covid. She's saying she can't apply for this without the LL's info.

She has told me the LL's dad did contact her and say he'd be in touch within a week but her phone broke and she didn't have his number saved to her sim so she lost it. She's kept the same number the whole time, but he hasn't been back in touch and she hasn't yet found a way to contact him or anyone else with any say.

She also confirmed she has been there since 2009 and that's when she got her only ever tenancy agreement while living there.

She's asking if she wanted to leave tomorrow, how and who could she give notice to?

Any more input would be great

Are you testing the waters for a crime novel you are planning to write? Only there can these facts be truth and such conveniences become plot twists.

If your "friend" really wanted to contact the LL, she could easily do this by requesting the bank pass her details to the LL as a matter of urgency. She could also check her call history online or on her bill and find the fathers number.

Your "friends" employment issues are separate to the rent due on the property and are no justification for free-loading. She makes for a good villain in the novel.

Caranica

There is no such thing as rent relief any more. If she's looking to apply for HAP the landlord has to complete part of the form.

JeffKenna

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. I'm posting this on her behalf to try and get some relevant info so if we can focus on that and less of the jumping to conclusions that would be great. I appreciate the helpful input so far. I'm doing this as a favour to her so not interested in getting into any back and forth's

Would anyone know, given that her income has been slashed, how can she apply for rent relief in the current situation with a deceased landlord and without knowing the actual status of the property whether it has actually been given in a will, whether it's mortgage free (she suspects so as she said the LL owned several properties) etc?

Also if she does prefer to move out, who can she give notice to, what should her steps be with that?

I think your friend should just go the full hog at this stage and go around to the LL's other properties giving them "updated" bank details.

...Ghost...

JeffKenna wrote: »

I think your friend should just go the full hog at this stage and go around to the LL's other properties giving them "updated" bank details.

PM already sent with "updated" bank details

cormie

...Ghost... wrote: »

Are you testing the waters for a crime novel you are planning to write? Only there can these facts be truth and such conveniences become plot twists.

If your "friend" really wanted to contact the LL, she could easily do this by requesting the bank pass her details to the LL as a matter of urgency. She could also check her call history online or on her bill and find the fathers number.

Your "friends" employment issues are separate to the rent due on the property and are no justification for free-loading. She makes for a good villain in the novel.

Are you attempting to imply that I'm posting this for myself by putting "friend" in inverted commas?

How would the bank passing on her details to the deceased landlord be an option? Even if they were to end up with the father, the father already has her details as he called her, she doesn't have his... and call history on bills is for outgoing calls, not incoming.

Caranica wrote: »

There is no such thing as rent relief any more. If she's looking to apply for HAP the landlord has to complete part of the form.

She just referred to it as rent relief probably meaning HAP. Would you have any idea what she could do in her situation given the LL needs to complete part of the form?




Folks, if we can please have less of the posts jumping to conclusion and judging that would be great. She's been paying rent every month since 2009 up until February this year, 8 months after the LL died. She's been unable to apply for HAP. I'm looking for helpful posts as she's unsure what she should do and considering moving out but wouldn't even know what to do if she decides on that with regards notice etc too.

Thanks for the helpful posts and suggestions so far to those who have contributed!

Contacting the bank is the best way forward. They will have been notified of the death by either the Father or executor/solicitor of the deceased landlords estate and would happily oblige in passing a letter from the tenant on.

If it’s an executor or solicitor that is now handling the affairs, they probably have an alternative account where payments can be made into. They’d also be able to advise the tenant on whether they’d consider HAP. The property may not qualify for HAP.

Based on the dates you have given, the tenant is obliged to give 112 days notice of leaving the property but this can be reduced if agreed by all parties.

Also, the father has lost his son. He may not be in the right frame of mind yet to deal with all this. Get her to write to the bank. They probably deal with matters like this more often than we think.

cormie

Thanks a lot for that

The tone of your posts is quite one of trying to get one over on the estate of the deceased (if the rent was subsequently 'demanded' etc.) which is quite low, regardless of your friend's personal circumstances. Whether the LL owned one or twenty properties or the neighbours are noisy or they aren't is really immaterial. The estate will eventually be wound up and the rent for the intervening period will be sought. Your friend can try contacting the undertaker asking if they could forward her details (or a letter from her) to the family, or if she lives in a smallish place she could also try contacting local solicitors asking that they would forward on her details if they are involved in the administration of the estate.

As your friend seems to have a gazillion scenarios aimed at capitalising on this stroke of luck to the very best of their capabilities I would say if they want to move out then move out now. This 'oh my goodness but who on earth would I give notice to' concern really ceases to be an issue and as you say she has amassed a few months of rent from which the deposit can be deducted.

If your friend wants to apply for HAP then she can explain the situation and if her claim is subsequently rejected because the LL is deceased she can keep that documented so that when the estate is wound up she can illustrate that she only has x% of the rent owed as she couldn't claim HAP due to the death of the LL. That would be taken into account and she can pay over the difference.

I appreciate this situation has caused some uncertainty for your friend but she does have options that don't involve trying to profit from someone's death in the way your post suggests.

Calahonda52

A new low in the land of pi$$ing on graves

dennyk

cormie wrote: »

Would anyone know, given that her income has been slashed, how can she apply for rent relief in the current situation with a deceased landlord and without knowing the actual status of the property whether it has actually been given in a will, whether it's mortgage free (she suspects so as she said the LL owned several properties) etc?

Also if she does prefer to move out, who can she give notice to, what should her steps be with that?

Unfortunately getting HAP will most likely not be possible without the cooperation of whoever actually owns the property at this point, and it may take a long time for the estate to be settled to the point where that will be doable. It's a difficult situation for her and not really fair, but there may not be anything that can be done about it.

The status of the property itself doesn't affect HAP eligibility, other than the issue of actually getting the current legal owner of the property to complete the required documentation for her HAP application.

One thing to keep in mind as well is that the property may well end up being sold (either by the new owner or by the estate in order to settle), or occupied by the new owner, so they might not be willing to go through the HAP process at all, since it'd be pointless if they're just going to give your friend notice anyway.

If she does want to move out, she'd be better off putting in proper effort to discover who currently owns the property and/or who is managing the estate of her deceased landlord. If she's been in contact with the landlord's father, that is a good starting point; surely she knows his name, so it shouldn't be too difficult to track him down even if she's lost his number. She also found the obituary on rip.ie, so she should have some other names of family members from that, and possibly an address which might be linked to someone in the family. If probate has been granted or an administrator appointed, she might be able to find the details at the Probate Register. Once she finds who owns the place, she can then give notice to end her tenancy.

Simply up and moving out without notice should be a last resort; it is an option, but she might find herself responsible for a significant amount of rent arrears (both what she already owes and possibly future rent as well), and the estate or the new owner could choose to pursue her for it in court, which would be a massive hassle at best and an expensive judgement against her at worst. If she is serious about wanting to leave, she needs to put the work in to find the current owner.