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Ireland - just as Viking, Anglo-Saxon and Frankish as Celt?

  • #2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭ IRISHSPORTSGUY


    P1ELUyE.png

    The Normans invaded England in 1066, they were descendants of Viking from Northern France. But the Normans had intermarried with the French for a good 100 years before their conquest of England. They converted to Christianity, learned French customs and spoke French. The Duke of Normandy swore fealty to the French crown.

    Normans conquered Ireland in 1169. By that time they, again, had intermarried with the English for a good 100 years before the invasion. There are many English surnames in Ireland (especially around Dublin) - Smith, Wilson, Miller etc.

    Some of our main population centers are Dublin, Cork and Limerick.

    Thoughts?


Comments

  • #2


    Thoughts are that what you're saying is pretty uncontroversial.

    Dublin, Cork, Limerick and other towns are Viking settlements, and they are today among our major centres of population, but this doesn't mean that the urban population has predominantly Viking ancestry. The cities got to be major centres of population through substantial inward migration from rural areas where the population was predominantly Gaelic and/or Norman. So while lots of us have some degree of Viking ancestry, it's mostly a fairly modest degree, even in the cities.


  • #2


    P1ELUyE.png

    The Normans invaded England in 1066, they were descendants of Viking from Northern France. ........

    In the castle in Caen, there is a notice stating that the Vikings came from various Viking centres including Dublin. So the Normans could be seen as returning Dublin Vikings.


  • #2


    That map is a 'lordship map' it doesn't reflect the actual ethnic map of the late middle ages/early modern period. The bulk of the population in Norman lordships were either 'Gaelic Irish' or mixed, thence by the 16th century the situation where Irish language was even quite heavily spoken within the 'Pale'.

    Leaving that aside here's list of top 20 surnames in Dublin:
    1. Murphy
    2. Ryan
    3. Kelly
    4. Walsh
    5. Byrne
    6. O'Connor
    7. O'Neill
    8. Quinn
    9. O'Brien
    10. Kavanagh
    11. Smith
    12. O'Sullivan
    13. Doyle
    14. O'Reilly
    15. McLoughlin
    16. Doherty
    17. Connolly
    18. Kennedy
    19. Dunne
    20. Moore

    Of these 'Walsh' and 'Smith' are obviously of non-Irish language origin. Though in case of Smith most Irish Smith's are probably of Mac Gabhainn origin (via direct angliscation). Moore can also be of english origin, though given that the Irish language name Ó Mordha is a leinster name, it's probable origin of nearly all the Dublin Moore's

    Useful book (though expensive)
    4-Obedient-Shires.jpg
    https://www.historyireland.com/book-reviews/cultural-exchange-and-identity-in-late-medieval-ireland-the-english-and-irish-of-the-four-obedient-shires/

    https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/124/5/1939/5672982

    parts of it can be read here:
    https://books.google.ie/books?id=wDRNDwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false


  • #2


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Thoughts are that what you're saying is pretty uncontroversial.

    Dublin, Cork, Limerick and other towns are Viking settlements, and they are today among our major centres of population, but this doesn't mean that the urban population has predominantly Viking ancestry. The cities got to be major centres of population through substantial inward migration from rural areas where the population was predominantly Gaelic and/or Norman. So while lots of us have some degree of Viking ancestry, it's mostly a fairly modest degree, even in the cities.

    I did one of the DNA test kits and came back with 2% being Norway so a little bit Viking there but almost all Irish otherwise with 7% Scottish thrown in.


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