A, B or C: you die anyway

starkid

here's an old video i was watching yesterday. touches upon alot of what we are talking about. David Simon talking about his worldview in the context of Baltimore. 7 years old, but is scarily getting more correct in 2021.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYXNdELqCe4&fbclid=IwAR0_64LwR7Is0EDyf6rHrglwv-NCJmtaYIArXCFrUiyK2Uxl_jRGaB8muxs

Tony EH

Man Vs ManUre wrote: »

Electric chair seems too painful to me. I’d choose being shot. At least it’s a more normal way to go!!

Well, the theory is that the first jolt will destroy the CNS. So the jolts afterward aren't felt by the victim.

But I don't know whether the theory stacks up after hearing stories of executed people writhing in agony, going up in flames and having their eyeballs fly out of their head.

I'd imagine that with electricity, you'd have a number of variables involved that would create different scenarios of death for the person in the chair.

osarusan

starkid wrote: »

what about in the cases of multiple murders and violent rape?

I mean im against the death penalty for the most part, but in really serious crimes i'm unsure.

If there are any crimes for which you think the death penalty is appropriate/acceptable, then you're not against it in principle, just think it should be limited in its application.

I'm against it in all and every situation. It is a right or a power I think a state should not have.

The 'what about if something unspeakably gruesome happened to your family' argument is always brought out. In such a case, I'd be massively angry, stressed, and emotional, and I'd probably want to do gruesome things to them myself.

But an actual punishment system shouldn't be dictated to by people who are massively angry, stressed, and emotional.

starkid

osarusan wrote: »

If there are any crimes for which you think the death penalty is appropriate/acceptable, then you're not against it in principle, just think it should be limited in its application.

I'm against it in all and every situation. It is a right or a power I think a state should not have.

The 'what about if something unspeakably gruesome happened to your family' argument is always brought out. In such a case, I'd be massively angry, stressed, and emotional, and I'd probably want to do gruesome things to them myself.

But an actual punishment system shouldn't be dictated to by people who are massively angry, stressed, and emotional.

Yeah i'm not against it in principle i accept that. I think if a person commits a murder, then they forfeit alot of their humanity. In multiple murders, or child murders i think it gets very tricky, particularly in societys that don't have life sentences. A Brevik situation. He killed what 70 people? **** him, let him rot for life. and in my system, yeah he would be shot. But i agree its a power the state shouldn't have. Its open to miscarriages of justice. It doesn't deter anybody. It costs alot of money. The long waits are dehumanizing. In the USA its completely open to abuse and its a reflection of the total lie of the American dream. I'm coming from a moral standpoint, some of which i don't believe in. I'm just talking about the actual act of it, not the system. Some of the moral question, imo, is contrived and meaningless. Much like good and evil (which i'm aware is used by proponents of the system), a creation of humanity. Society had executions for much of its timespan and we're still here, morality and order didn't collapse. Like there was order and peace, and morality before organised religion. There's alot of complete bull**** involved imo. Mental gymnastics by NGO's, the law, politicians and so on, justifying their existence. But of course you can't have one with the other. So the system that capital punishment has created of course is the terrible cost.

But of course, i completely understand its non use. It will never be a factor so theres no point discussing it. But its in a country where no other deterrents are considered or accepted, thats where i completely differ. In Ireland we seem to have taken that to an extreme. An Irish exceptionalism where we have the answer. We can somehow do it different, and be fair to all the sons of erin no matter how bad an egg they are. Brings a tear to my eye, the humanity of it all. All living in harmony and equality. Nobody has the answer. Some people can be rehabilitated, some can't. Some are born into poor families, turn good or vice versa. There's no right way.

Its a valid argument, because unfortunately theres alot of people in ivory towers living completely hypocrticial lives etc. Look at the middle east, and all the wars etc. The UK doesn't have death row, but can bomb Iraq and its civilians at will etc. championed by people who would find death row horrific, whats the difference? Israel assinateed a hamas leader with a bomb that has 6 knives that shoot out, no explosion. Whats the difference between that and death row? Obama was cheerleaded into the most drone strikes of any president but was a follower of the principles people like you espouse. Its pure and utter hypocrisy.

Theres a tonne of hypocrisy. It shouldn't be dictated to by people in ivory towers either. The law is a complete ass at the best of times and judicial discretion etc is a farce at times, with judges living a completely disconnected life as well as most likely being in the same circles and same gravy train with previous defendants. martin Nolan, for example was an ex garda. Lawyers of serious criminals keeping a straight face in the principles of equality before the face of the law. Its like the lad in Dubai, in fairness maybe he's right? is he not presumed innocent? hypocrisy again.

My point really isn't in isolation. It has to be taken in context of Ireland or the USA. In the former we have **** all deterrents and multiple convictions and in the US they have a broken system. But one that if it didn't exist, i would reckon in its current incarnation, the USA would be a purge like state or mega city one from the Dredd series. Ireland has to find that middle ground before its too late imo, as we are matching up with them in alot of the other societal issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYXN...Uxl_jRGaB8muxs

this talk sums up alot of my viewpoints much better. I like the way he sums up - people thinking they can change the world by summing it up in one paragraph.

TLDR - i get the reason capital punishment isn't viable, nor something a just society would want. But a small part of me believes if an extreme murder that is proved beyond reasonable doubt, well then an eye for an eye is just as much in the magical ether of doing something than locking him up for life. If the victims family wanted or accepted his forgiveness well thats enough for me. Neither has any true consequences in the end in reality. Bear in mind, as an aethiest i sometimes can't believe the World is still guided by religion and dogmatic morality in certain institutions etc and is part of where i'm coming at this from. There's alot of magical, mystical, theroetical, bull**** around in the World today. Alot of it completey torn by hypocricy, greed, and the non black and white, grey nature of life.

Galwayguy35

iffandonlyif wrote: »

Good lord, that really is barbaric. 'Closure and justice' shouldn't mean eye-for-an-eye.

Probably not as barbaric as the deaths their victims got.

corner of hells

stoneill wrote: »

And that is why it is called Hawaii 50.

And Alaska is really called Alaska 49.

begbysback

It’s Hawaii five oh people, not Hawaii fifty

namloc1980

The most revealing part of this thread is that at least one poster thinks there are 52 states in the US.

Jerry Attrick

TheValeyard wrote: »

I believe there must be a way to rehabilitate the person to make them a productive member of society. That does not nessessarly involve release in the short or long term.

They could become a very productive member of society simply by signing an organ donor card immediately before they are executed.

begbysback

namloc1980 wrote: »

The most revealing part of this thread is that at least one poster thinks there are 52 states in the US.

Idiots, everybody knows there’s only 51

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2hvZQHt9_K0

starkid

namloc1980 wrote: »

The most revealing part of this thread is that at least one poster thinks there are 52 states in the US.

give over ffs, i accepted the error. i was thinking of costa rica and typing in work. its actually a common error because of the setup of it - i.e There are 48 contiguous states plus 2. funny thats the point you took rather than the complexity of the US. Alaska in itself is part of this complexity and timeline only becoming a state in 1959. Maybe rather than be a troll, add you own views to the debate.

Vestiapx

Whatever is given for euthanasia is what should be offered.

Fann Linn

Getting back on topic I believe in Uzbekistan they boil people to death or freeze them.

osarusan

starkid wrote: »

Its a valid argument, because unfortunately theres alot of people in ivory towers living completely hypocrticial lives etc. Look at the middle east, and all the wars etc. The UK doesn't have death row, but can bomb Iraq and its civilians at will etc. championed by people who would find death row horrific, whats the difference? Israel assinateed a hamas leader with a bomb that has 6 knives that shoot out, no explosion. Whats the difference between that and death row? Obama was cheerleaded into the most drone strikes of any president but was a follower of the principles people like you espouse. Its pure and utter hypocrisy.

Who are 'people like me' and what principles and hypocrisy to they (and apparently, myself also) display?

kildare lad

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Probably not as barbaric as the deaths their victims got.

I think if you murder , rape or molest someone you should have your human rights forfeited. A dog gets put down when he bites a person , the same should apply to murders rapists and pedophiles.

ohnonotgmail

Fann Linn wrote: »

Getting back on topic I believe in Uzbekistan they boil people to death or freeze them.

Uzbekistan doesn't have the death penalty.

starkid

osarusan wrote: »

Who are 'people like me' and what principles and hypocrisy to they (and apparently, myself also) display?

People that outright dismiss capital punishment and even prisons, police, state deterrents, without offering any arguments against it. Its just wrong they will say, while backing so many other positions that are hypocritical. People that would be against all sorts of deterrents. Prisons, police, punishments. I suppose if we are going to use US terminology, a democratic liberal. many of whom are happy to bomb an Iraqi or whomever...but no tut tut capital punishment is wrong...but lets not fix the actual issues which drive that like poverty and healthcare. Complete and utter hypocrites, white knighting away and pontificating from ivory towers. In Ireland obviously its slightly different, i suppose i'd proffer a Richard Boy Barrett type. Who is totally different to the above. He doesn't back anything really, a polemic, a contrariarn. Earnest, populist, well intentioned but often wrong.

Maybe you're not any of those things, sorry, but i'm weary of some of the viewpoints on this thread.

Look capital punishment is , in the 21st century, mostly wrong, has too many poor people in its grasp, isn't a deterrent and will be got rid of in most jurisdictions. There's no argument to be had, i've already lost in a sense as modern civilisation is turning away from it. I'll just argue thre's alot of hypocrisy in that, as well giving too much ground to the RBB"s of the WOrld, which the unintented consequence could be the idea perhaps, that prison in itself is now wrong and why should the state be the arbitrater of imprionment etc etc. I mean if you had told people 100 years ago executions were immoral they would have laughed at you. In 100 years time whos to say the arguments aren't the same around police, prisons, punishment. And people will just say "they are". I mean its already happening. And imo thats giving human kind far too much credit. We can't ever stop crime, violence etc. it will always be a factor. Anyway i think it will be circular. I think humanity will get worse as the inequality gap widens , the hypocrisy and virtue signalling continue, and in 100 years time we will be back to having capital punishment. Unless we find a warp drive, infinite energy, or the like its probably inevitable imo.

apologies for judging you. it wasn't meant as a criticism in a sense. I respect people's views. Its just you are so certain of your position, and you haven't really offered an explanaiton for it. Its a right the state shouldn't have you say. And i ask why? And in a few decades what stops the same being said about police or prisons? Many left leaning parties here would consider the latter as the private army of the state, imposing their will on the people.

Fann Linn

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Uzbekistan doesn't have the death penalty.

Read an article about their human rights status a few years back, I'll try and find it later.

ohnonotgmail

Fann Linn wrote: »

Read an article about their human rights status a few years back, I'll try and find it later.

they certainly torture people, including the use of boiling water, but they don't have the death penalty.

biko

If I had to choose between the chair and firing squad then being shot is preferable.

Mike Murdock

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

It's a wingnut's wet dream, making condemned prisoners choose the manner of their own death. All that's missing is charging their families for the bullets or the electricity used.

Maybe the poor cratur's shouldn't go about murdering people then, right?

osarusan

starkid wrote: »

Maybe you're not any of those things, sorry, but i'm weary of some of the viewpoints on this thread.

I'm all for more police, more prison spaces, and longer sentences. I'm as sick as anybody else of people walking around with hundreds of convictions, and people out there with no respect for anybody or anything else, including the law.

When I saw the footage of the girl being knocked under the train last week, my first thought was that hopefully somebody will give that lad a proper battering. Even though a battering would likely achieve no long-term positives, I'd still like him to suffer just for the sake of it.

But I can see that I need to separate that kind of emotive thought from what 'should' happen. We can agree that there are problems with law and justice and punishment in this country which need to be resolved, but even though at some primitive level we'd like to see some skangers battered or terminated, it's not actually the way we want to go as a country.

starkid

osarusan wrote: »

I'm all for more police, more prison spaces, and longer sentences. I'm as sick as anybody else of people walking around with hundreds of convictions, and people out there with no respect for anybody or anything else, including the law.

When I saw the footage of the girl being knocked under the train last week, my first thought was that hopefully somebody will give that lad a proper battering. Even though a battering would likely achieve no long-term positives, I'd still like him to suffer just for the sake of it.

But I can see that I need to separate that kind of emotive thought from what 'should' happen. We can agree that there are problems with law and justice and punishment in this country which need to be resolved, but even though at some primitive level we'd like to see some skangers battered or terminated, it's not actually the way we want to go as a country.

Ok fair enough. Sorry sometimes people with your viewpoint don't share the above. I respect that. For me its all about balance.

Amirani

starkid wrote: »

give over ffs, i accepted the error. i was thinking of costa rica and typing in work. its actually a common error because of the setup of it - i.e There are 48 contiguous states plus 2. funny thats the point you took rather than the complexity of the US. Alaska in itself is part of this complexity and timeline only becoming a state in 1959. Maybe rather than be a troll, add you own views to the debate.

What were you thinking about Costa Rica for?

starkid

Amirani wrote: »

What were you thinking about Costa Rica for?

In terms of the complexity of the USA. I mean Costa Rica is an example of the whole thing. US would shout loud its not a coloniser when it in fact houses 13 terrotories outside of states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statehood_movement_in_Puerto_Rico

Its a massively complex society and country. its easy to sit in some smaller, homogenous nations and judge. that was the main point. Nitpicking over the number of states is trivial.