F1 2021 Round 5 : Monaco GP

KevRossi

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

Will Hamilton have a say on that though I wonder.

Very doubtful. Hamilton has considered retiring, so Mercedes have to think of the team post-Hamilton. It would make sense to get a driver in now who they want to lock in long term to ease the transition.

Getting rid of two long term drivers and bringing in two completely new ones in the same season would be too much of a break in the system.

pjohnson

Mercedes will never allow a challenger to Hamilton take the second seat. Not after the Rosberg situation.

Toto explicitly said that last year.

quokula

People have zero perspective on Hamilton because of the endless propaganda from the UK media and the stupidly dominant car he's had, so I always look at it from the point of view "would this driver beat Rosberg", because it's a fact that the last time anyone other than Bottas was in that car it was Nico and he did beat Lewis to the title. And nobody thinks Rosberg is anything other than an average driver.

So by that criteria, yes, there's a lot of drivers that could win the title in the Merc, including Kimi. But Mercedes have said repeatedly that they don't want a repeat of Rosberg, because it was bad publicity having Hamilton throwing tantrums and thrashing the team, so there's no chance they're putting a good driver in the second car until Lewis retires, unless they start to have concerns that their car doesn't have enough of a margin over the field to make up for the drivers.

As of right now, despite some heroics from Max in wet weather and around Monaco, the Merc is still pretty dominant on a standard race track in dry conditions, so I don't think they'll be making such consideration yet. Next year has some regulation changes though so any moves will likely be a signal of how confident they are in next year's chassis development.

ctrl-alt-delete

namloc1980 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ukLvgrCkUc

Mazepin's engineer deserves a pay-rise. :pac:

In fairness to him I've smashed it into the wall at Monaco in the F1 game trying to change a setting:pac:

flazio

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

From the race weekend thread

Why on earth would you want to see Kimi in a Mercedes? I'd love to see a fast driver, who could hopefully challenge Lewis, in the second Mercedes. Putting Kimi in the second Mercedes would be a step backwards from Bottas.

What happens to Bottas will be interesting to see. There aren't many seats available in F1 at the moment. Williams would have to pay him and I'm not sure Williams pays drivers these days. Maybe they will have budget to pay Bottas since the takeover.

My feeling is, if Vettel decides to bow out at the end of this year. Bottas is the favourite for the Aston Martin seat.

Faugheen

KevRossi wrote: »

Hamilton has always been like that. If he's doing badly it's the car and teams fault, if he does well, it's because he's so good. That's his opinion of himself.

This is just absolute bollocks really. Hamilton is always first to commend the team when he wins especially when a risky strategy call works in his favour.

Seriously, I know it's really cool to actively dislike Hamilton here but there is no need to make up blatant bullsh*t.

EDIT: In fact it's such bollocks that I've gone back to every team radio from the end of all the races so far this year. Hamilton commends the team in all of them and at Imola even apologises for a mistake.

Hamilton is already unlikeable enough but it's actually desperately sad that people have to make up sh*t about him to make him sound more unlikeable. Baffling really.

klose

flazio wrote: »

My feeling is, if Vettel decides to bow out at the end of this year. Bottas is the favourite for the Aston Martin seat.

I think vettel (and all drivers for that case) will want another crack at it next season with the new regs coming and a potential shake up of things.

Any drivers out of contracts at the end of this season?

MadYaker

Perez surely?

Harika

Raikonnen, Giovanazzi, Russell also
I would assume if Kimi retires that Schumacher gets moved there. Some Ferrari junior into Haas.
Tsunoda needs to pull himself up, else he might be replaced by a red bull junior.

El_Duderino 09

Harika wrote: »

Raikonnen, Giovanazzi, Russell also
I would assume if Kimi retires that Schumacher gets moved there. Some Ferrari junior into Haas.
Tsunoda needs to pull himself up, else he might be replaced by a red bull junior.

I agree he needs to pull his socks up.
I presume there's politics in Tsunoda's appointment as the deal came back when red bull was trying to get a good deal from Honda on the engine. That might not be relevant now that the deal is done.

But I'd give Tsunoda more time. He's a rookie and a very inexperienced and very young rookie. Well need to give him time to adapt. He's not like an established driver moving between teams. He's so inexperienced that he might benefit from a year back in F2 and then get another crack at F1 if it goes well. I know that's not really the way it works.

chicorytip

klose wrote: »

I think vettel (and all drivers for that case) will want another crack at it next season with the new regs coming and a potential shake up of things.

Any drivers out of contracts at the end of this season?

Vettel could end up at Mercedes if the gig at Aston Martin goes well and Hamilton decides to retire. Kimi simply has to go. He is the F1 dinosaur and is being trounced by his own team mate. As for Bottas, America could be the best destination for him.

Faugheen

chicorytip wrote: »

Vettel could end up at Mercedes if the gig at Aston Martin goes well and Hamilton decides to retire. Kimi simply has to go. He is the F1 dinosaur and is being trounced by his own team mate. As for Bottas, America could be the best destination for him.

While I understand your point, you had a completely different view of Kubica when he was being beaten out of the gate by his rookie team-mate..

Joeface

Ocon is still a Toto driver right ,if his year continues as it is , and The Bottas story is true it will probably be him that gets the second seat in Mercedes beside Lewis for one year (2022). The Move Russell in year 2. (2023) so Ocon Russell is the line up from then on.

Alonso if his season stays at the level it is at currently , I cannot see him staying so that is 2 free seats at Alpine . Zhou will probably be promoted to one , Do Alpine go after Gasly ,French team an all or do the use Kyvatt as he is familiar with the car.

Kimi will Retire as well so that is another Free seat more than likely taken by MickS , as the Russians will have HAAS no idea who takes the second seat there.

very early to be playing musical Driving seats , This what happens in the gap between races.

BrentMused

I would definitely give Tsunoda more time.

In reality, he needs this season as a bedding in season and then expectations should rise for next season. He's so inexperienced that his only experience of driving the Monaco track he said was via the F1 2020 game!

I feel there's promise there, as he showed in F2 and on his F1 debut, but there are a few things that may ensure he's one and done.

1) Firstly, he's not doing himself any favours. After qualifying in Spain when he went out on Q1, he did a fairly scathing interview in which he criticised the car and said that his and Gasly's car wasn't the same. That will not go down well and he should know better, especially when he is admittedly under-performing.

2) Gasly is such a good driver and outperforming the car by so much that it will make Tsunoda look worse than he perhaps may seem come the end of the season.

3) The driver program he is on is hardly known for giving people time.

El_Duderino 09

chicorytip wrote: »

Vettel could end up at Mercedes if the gig at Aston Martin goes well and Hamilton decides to retire. Kimi simply has to go. He is the F1 dinosaur and is being trounced by his own team mate. As for Bottas, America could be the best destination for him.

If Mercedes want a driver who is no challenge to Hamilton then they will stick with Bottas. He rarely crashes and does as much as possible for the constructors without seriously challenging Hamilton over the season.

Vettel is almost certainly slower than Bottas, less consistent and more prone to terrible mistakes and probably more expensive as he was once a top driver.

What are the arguments in favour of Vettel to Mercedes?

flazio

Joeface wrote: »

Ocon is still a Toto driver right ,

No. Cut ties once he signed to, then, Renault.

Joeface

I had to look that up ,was sure I heard some say he was still Toto driver and from this Auto sport article (13 May 2021) , he appears to be.


"Esteban Ocon finds himself in the unusual situation of being an Alpine works driver, racing a car powered by a Renault power unit… and yet still having his career guided by Mercedes Team Principal Toto Wolff."

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.wolff-says-ocon-growing-at-alpine-but-admits-weird-situation-complicates.4P6jcohdFBPy8qB3T4KoPC.html#:~:text=Esteban%20Ocon%20finds%20himself%20in%20the%20unusual%20situation,career%20guided%20by%20Mercedes%20Team%20Principal%20Toto%20Wolff.

Charlie-Bravo

Yes, Ocon is no longer a Merc driver...and he's under contract until the end of this year. I'd expect he will have his contract renewed as he is sort of improving and not making a mess of things at the team. I wouldn't see Alonso staying on for much longer than his current contract. Gasly seems like he'd be happy to stay at AT (I know there's talk about having him at Apline becuase he's French). So maybe an opening for Alonso's seat when the time comes, and possibly that could be for the likes of Zhou or Luungard.

El_Duderino 09

flazio wrote: »

No. Cut ties once he signed to, then, Renault.

He did and he didn't. He cut ties with Mercedes officially but he is still under Toto's management and left on very good terms with both Mercedes and Toto. He's in with a shout of being offered a Mercedes deal at some point just by virtue of being part of the wider mercedes/Toto stable.

Faugheen

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

He did and he didn't. He cut ties with Mercedes officially but he is still under Toto's management and left on very good terms with both Mercedes and Toto. He's in with a shout of being offered a Mercedes deal at some point just by virtue of being part of the wider mercedes/Toto stable.

You would imagine Russell has jumped the queue at this stage.

There is no reason why Mercedes would look and see what Russell did in a car he could barely fit in and decide a driver no longer on their books would be ahead of him.

With Russell out of contract I would be very surprised if the deal isn’t already done to bring him to Mercedes.

ednwireland

lando was very non commital in the interview at the weekend as to whether he had an opt out clause if one of the bigger (than mclaren !) teams comes knocking

El_Duderino 09

Faugheen wrote: »

You would imagine Russell has jumped the queue at this stage.

There is no reason why Mercedes would look and see what Russell did in a car he could barely fit in and decide a driver no longer on their books would be ahead of him.

With Russell out of contract I would be very surprised if the deal isn’t already done to bring him to Mercedes.

Yeah I'd agree with that. I'd say ocon is on a short list of candidates but behind Russell.

the_pen_turner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah I'd agree with that. I'd say ocon is on a short list of candidates but behind Russell.

I can see both of them at merc in 2023

El_Duderino 09

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I can see both of them at merc in 2023

Yeah that's the kind of thing I'm thinking. He did everything perfectly. He nearly matched Perez at FI. When he was diddles out of a drive, he kept his head. Then went to Renault and matched Ricciardo in the second half of their time together and is now trouncing Alonso.

He never made enemies along the way, apart from Perez.

AMKC

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

From the race weekend thread

Why on earth would you want to see Kimi in a Mercedes? I'd love to see a fast driver, who could hopefully challenge Lewis, in the second Mercedes. Putting Kimi in the second Mercedes would be a step backwards from Bottas.

What happens to Bottas will be interesting to see. There aren't many seats available in F1 at the moment. Williams would have to pay him and I'm not sure Williams pays drivers these days. Maybe they will have budget to pay Bottas since the takeover.

I think Kimi in the Mercedes could win. He won in the Ferrari not so long ago in America. A great race that was. Kimi would not take any of Lewis mind games either. He is after all the ice man. He got into Q2 at the weekend and Alonso did not.

Frank Bullitt

https://the-race.com/formula-1/did-world-falling-on-our-heads-justify-hamilton-frustration/

And post-race there was one particular TV interview with Dutch broadcaster Ziggo that seemed to get a few social media users riled up, when Hamilton was asked if he had lessons to learn from this weekend and said no, then was asked if the team did, and said yes.

Oh how I would love to be a fly on the wall in Merc this week for the debriefs.

AMKC

The Formula e Monaco race from 2 weeks ago. This is how a Monoca race should go,

https://youtu.be/BbquyUh3Lg8

El_Duderino 09

AMKC wrote: »

I think Kimi in the Mercedes could win. He won in the Ferrari not so long ago in America. A great race that was. Kimi would not take any of Lewis mind games either. He is after all the ice man. He got into Q2 at the weekend and Alonso did not.

Ah come on. He's past it. He's not beating Gio this year or last year and I don't think anyone rates Giovanazzi any better than poor-average.

Kimi is poor these days. Mercedes want a decent driver who can be good, consistent (kimi hasn't been consistent for a decade) but not good enough to challenge Hamilton. Kimi isn't any of those things (well, he's not good enough to challenge Hamilton. But he's not fast or consistent enough)

chicorytip

Faugheen wrote: »

While I understand your point, you had a completely different view of Kubica when he was being beaten out of the gate by his rookie team-mate..

Kubica did o.k. at Williams far from embarrassing himself as many were predicting. Has Latifi been a significant upgrade? No. He's miles off the qualifying pace and race performance of Russell.

chicorytip

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If Mercedes want a driver who is no challenge to Hamilton then they will stick with Bottas. He rarely crashes and does as much as possible for the constructors without seriously challenging Hamilton over the season.

Vettel is almost certainly slower than Bottas, less consistent and more prone to terrible mistakes and probably more expensive as he was once a top driver.

What are the arguments in favour of Vettel to Mercedes?

Well, he is German for starters. That could be a significant point in his favour. I think he still has the ambition of winning another title after failing with Ferrari. Arguably, he still retains the necessary pace and ability. It all depends on how he performs for Aston Martin, whether he can amass a good haul of points and a few podium finishes - more than Perez did.

the_pen_turner

chicorytip wrote: »

Well, he is German for starters. That could be a significant point in his favour. I think he still has the ambition of winning another title after failing with Ferrari. Arguably, he still retains the necessary pace and ability. It all depends on how he performs for Aston Martin, whether he can amass a good haul of points and a few podium finishes - more than Perez did.

For Vettel to be even considered for such a seat he would need to obliterate his teammate, and finish every race high in the points and be on the podium based on skill not just luck. Even then he would still be an outsider on the list

El_Duderino 09

chicorytip wrote: »

Kubica did o.k. at Williams far from embarrassing himself as many were predicting. Has Latifi been a significant upgrade? No. He's miles off the qualifying pace and race performance of Russell.

Total double standards. Kubica was about half a second off Russell's pace in quali and the race. That counts as embarrassing. Lattiffi is miles off Russell's quali pace but has been about Russell's race pace this season. How you could defend one and not the other is baffling.

Here's a super cool graphic of the teammate head to heads on race pace in 2019
. Russell has the biggest margin of "winning laps" over teammates of everyone except Verstappen - and Verstappen's teammates have been fired since then.

https://f1bythenumbers.com/2019-f1-season-all-the-laps-part-3/

and here you can see that Kubica's median lap so far behind Russell. Further behind his teammate than any driver, except Galsey and Albon - who were both fired from RB.
https://f1bythenumbers.com/2019-f1-season-all-the-laps-part-2/

El_Duderino 09

chicorytip wrote: »

Well, he is German for starters. That could be a significant point in his favour. I think he still has the ambition of winning another title after failing with Ferrari. Arguably, he still retains the necessary pace and ability. It all depends on how he performs for Aston Martin, whether he can amass a good haul of points and a few podium finishes - more than Perez did.

If he still has the necessary pace and ability, why has he been so poor over the last few years? If it's because he was cross with ferrari for not giving him a new contract, then has he the temperament that Mercedes wants? I don't think he's showing the speed, consistency or temperament to make Mercedes even remotely interested in him.

I wonder about the German aspect. Presumably the German market is pretty saturated. I think i remember that they regretted having to German drivers when they had Rosberg and Schumacher. It sounds good but actually a fast Chinese or American driver would be the golden ticket.

Maybe being German is in has favour. His recent form certainly isn't.

namloc1980

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z_cr__lsc4

:pac:

Joeface

namloc1980 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z_cr__lsc4

:pac:

That's just going Ruin stroll , if and when ever he wins a race they will cut away to that .

Faugheen

chicorytip wrote: »

Kubica did o.k. at Williams far from embarrassing himself as many were predicting. Has Latifi been a significant upgrade? No. He's miles off the qualifying pace and race performance of Russell.

Come off it. Russell smoked Kubica as a rookie.

Giovanazzi is getting the better of Kimi as Gio gets more experience and Kimi gets older. Russell had literally never raced an F1 car before he destroyed Kubica and is naturally beating his inferior team-mate as he gets more experience but Latifi is much closer to Russell on race pace than Kubica ever was.

kksaints

namloc1980 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z_cr__lsc4

:pac:

My personal favourite.

Frank Bullitt

Faugheen wrote: »

Come off it. Russell smoked Kubica as a rookie.

Giovanazzi is getting the better of Kimi as Gio gets more experience and Kimi gets older. Russell had literally never raced an F1 car before he destroyed Kubica and is naturally beating his inferior team-mate as he gets more experience but Latifi is much closer to Russell on race pace than Kubica ever was.

Add in his first, and only, race in the Merc last year and how he performed. He is the only choice for Merc.

Busi_Girl08

Thoughts on this? Toto shifting a bit of the blame of the tyre fiasco on to Bottas? Can't see how him being a tiny bit off mark could make a difference. Surely that happens all the time when drivers are pulling into the pit stop?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolff-valtteri-bottas-wheel-nut/

El_Duderino 09

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

Thoughts on this? Toto shifting a bit of the blame of the tyre fiasco on to Bottas? Can't see how him being a tiny bit off mark could make a difference. Surely that happens all the time when drivers are pulling into the pit stop?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolff-valtteri-bottas-wheel-nut/

Depends if it's true or not. We all talk about how Mercedes are as good as they are because they hunt down the source of problems and address them. If there were 5 things that combined to cause the problem (like the wheel gunner having to readjust and going at the wheel nut from a different angle) then that's the story.

namloc1980

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

Thoughts on this? Toto shifting a bit of the blame of the tyre fiasco on to Bottas? Can't see how him being a tiny bit off mark could make a difference. Surely that happens all the time when drivers are pulling into the pit stop?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolff-valtteri-bottas-wheel-nut/

.

Putting blame for this on Bottas is ridiculous. Drivers miss there marks in every race. It's up to the gunner to adjust for any variance - and the picture of the stop shows him pretty much bang on the mark ^^^. There is zero chance that if this happened to Hamilton that Toto would shift the blame onto Hamilton. I actually feel sorry Bottas at Mercedes - it seems they have no respect for him

the_pen_turner

Has anyone got a video of the whole pit stop. Surely there was the usual guy telling him where to stop usually it's a hand out to align with the halo or a lollipop to the top of the wheel.
But Bottas is off the mark in front of the gun . It's not a lot
Either way the other 3 guns worked perfectly despite the slight misalignment.


To me it looks like the gun was started to early and it couldn't engage enough to turn the nut

namloc1980

the_pen_turner wrote: »

Has anyone got a video of the whole pit stop. Surely there was the usual guy telling him where to stop usually it's a hand out to align with the halo or a lollipop to the top of the wheel.
But Bottas is off the mark in front of the gun . It's not a lot
Either way the other 3 guns worked perfectly despite the slight misalignment.


To me it looks like the gun was started to early and it couldn't engage enough to turn the nut

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Xvu2pbYx0

He's probably a few centimetres short but this is hardly the first time in the history of F1 a driver was short (or long) of their marks. Shifting the blame to Bottas smacks of disrespect and it simply wouldn't happen to Hamilton.

Frank Bullitt

namloc1980 wrote: »

.

Putting blame for this on Bottas is ridiculous. Drivers miss there marks in every race. It's up to the gunner to adjust for any variance - and the picture of the stop shows him pretty much bang on the mark ^^^. There is zero chance that if this happened to Hamilton that Toto would shift the blame onto Hamilton. I actually feel sorry Bottas at Mercedes - it seems they have no respect for him

If Bottas is off (and to be fair it does not look like that), and the nut was stripped because of that...there is a serious quality issue with the part.

Bottas was literally a passenger in this whole thing though.

Gaoth Laidir

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

Thoughts on this? Toto shifting a bit of the blame of the tyre fiasco on to Bottas? Can't see how him being a tiny bit off mark could make a difference. Surely that happens all the time when drivers are pulling into the pit stop?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolff-valtteri-bottas-wheel-nut/

Bull****. Wolff is a dick. Every driver stops a little short or long at some stage but we never see this cock-up. No blame at all on the mechanic when the other three had no problem at all?

“Valtteri stopped a little too early,” said Wolff, quoted by Auto Motor und Sport, indicating he had pulled up slightly short of his marks.

“This meant the mechanic had to apply the impact wrench at an angle. The awkward angle damaged the wheel nut and we couldn’t bring it down.”

“And as a matter of fact, the mechanic that did that is one of the best, and one of the fittest in terms of pit-stop speed, that the team has.

Busi_Girl08

I mean surely if what Toto is saying is true, this would be happening every 2nd race? And as mentioned by El Duderino, if they are suggesting that it is down to a combination of factors, then it really has to ultimately come down to the manufacturing/engineering, not the driver?

klose

Lance stroll literally knocked down a guy last season when he overshot his stop on cold brakes /tyres and they carried on, I can't see how that's bottas fault for the nut sticking.

Jesus that's such a dick move from Toto.

El_Duderino 09

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

I mean surely if what Toto is saying is true, this would be happening every 2nd race? And as mentioned by El Duderino, if they are suggesting that it is down to a combination of factors, then it really has to ultimately come down to the manufacturing/engineering, not the driver?

If it's a combination of factors then the driver could easily be one of those factors. If the mechanic having to reposition the gun increases the chances of this kind of thing happening then of course it likely partly down to Bottas pulling up short of the spot. It doesn't mean it will happen every time they pull up short of the pit spot. It just means that pulling up short of the pit spot increases the chances of it happening as the mechanic has to reposition.

Toto didn't say it was any one individual's fault. He was pretty explicit about it being a combination of factors. From the article “So there are always things coming together. It’s never someone’s fault, it’s always multi-faceted."

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolff-valtteri-bottas-wheel-nut/

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus that's such a dick move from Toto.

Nah. He's not blaming Bottas, he says it's no one person's fault.
Totally blown out of proportion.