Not Guilty by reason of Insanity READ OP FIRST

The Black Oil

Looking at the kids on the RTE article they've such lovely smiles. It's so, so sad.

Taeholic

py2006 wrote: »

So her attempts to kill herself were to avoid a jail sentence and not out of guilt for multiple murders?

It certainly reads that way to me. Her own children. I guess only she can answer that

Purple is a Fruit

joe40 wrote: »

I can understand that up to a point but in this particular case the medical experts for both sides and both legal teams accepted the insanity case.
I can't believe those experts were hoodwinked or overly influenced by emotion as opposed to psychiatric medicine.
Even the husband can accept the verdict.
Each case is different, in this case there seems to be a clear medical consensus.
As a non medical person I can accept that.

Emotion, gender all kinds of things can come into wider debate but in that courthouse the only factors were medical and legal.
Comparisons with other cases is moot. No two are the same.

Absolutely. And any posts filled with vile language and violence and warped fantasies regarding her are disgusting.

But emotion outside the court-room is still valid IMO. Criticism of her actions without violent talk is perfectly reasonable.

jk23

Taeholic wrote: »

Apologies, maybe I should have put a warning on the post. It made me sick to my stomach to read too

No you are grand, it's part of what went on and to know how the situation unfolded, thanks for uploading it.

jackboy

It’s hard to get any sort of accurate picture based on what is portrayed in the media but she comes across as controlling and manipulative. She doesn’t come across as empathetic.

Probably only the husband really knows the truth.

SeaFields

As a grown man it's rare if ever that listening to media reports of a crime would upset me. This was one of them. Horrifying events emerged from that trial. Absolutely horrifying.

JP Liz V1

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

The public have a right to know what she did.
When a man kills his kids he is a murdering scumbag but when a woman does it its a tragedy.
When articles on this case appeared on FB over the last few days quite a few women in the comments section blamed the husband for his wife murdering their kids.

I don't care the gender but I am sorry I cannot feel any sympathy for her and the more of the case I read and see the kids pictures, the angrier I get, how could a mother, a nurse do that :mad:

py2006

Imagine the neighbours of that family. Imagine the parents of the kids who played with these poor children. How do they explain this to them.
Imagine their cousins too. I know its not on the same level as the father.

Wow, the sadness extends the more you think about it.

newuser99999

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

Isn't everything you've claimed about Alan Hawe hearsay, revisionism and gossip though? Before the funerals there was this:
"Clodagh Hawe’s sister Jacqueline posted a Facebook link to an article on Alan’s mental state and added: ‘A bit of truth at last!’ She also paid a heartfelt tribute to the entire Hawe family, adding: ‘RIP our wonderful Alan, Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan we love you all our angels xxxxxxxx.’"

"‘Alan and Clodagh were a happy and loving couple and what happened was completely out of character."
https://evoke.ie/2016/09/02/news/irish-news/clodagh-hawes-sister-explains-pressure-on-father-of-three

Contents of the suicide letters were withheld by gardai as they were too upsetting. He’s been exhumed since too. Talk about suiting your own narrative posting that.

monkeybutter

starkid wrote: »

thanks look its not the case to be getting angry over. I'm more pressed by the Cortes case, but getting worked up over things we can't change, sometimes whats the point.

I accept your viewpoint.

The Cortes case is hardly in the same league as this

Taeholic

jk23 wrote: »

No you are grand, it's part of what went on and to know how the situation unfolded, thanks for uploading it.

I regretted reading it to be honest that's why I didn't post the link to the full article. Heart breaking read, those poor children

starkid

monkeybutter wrote: »

The Cortes case is hardly in the same league as this

yeah of course not. I mean pressed in terms of the justice of a particular case, in my own mind. and in relation to another thread on here where this debate has been playing out.

Its all hugely complex.

Faugheen

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

I don't care the gender but I am sorry I cannot feel any sympathy for her and the more of the case I read and see the kids pictures, the angrier I get, how could a mother, a nurse do that :mad:

I'm sorry but if you're reading it more and more and then coming to this conclusion then you're clearly not reading it properly at all.

pjohnson

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

I don't care the gender but I am sorry I cannot feel any sympathy for her and the more of the case I read and see the kids pictures, the angrier I get, how could a mother, a nurse do that :mad:

When she "recovers" this time she will hardly be let go back to work this time?

Any parents who had her "treat" their kids must have shivered when they realised who she was.

Sickening case.

Strumms

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

If you are insane you don't know right from wrong.

Mental illness is not the same as insanity.

It's the reason why one person gets committed for murder and another gets sent to prison for life.

Mental illness and insanity are basically different manifestations and levels of the same problem... a problem that requires treating and as a greater priority one which people need protecting from.... if that means instatutionalizing individuals to protect society and treat people if thats possible.. we do it...

People stiĺl need to be held to account and punished for crimes.

Samsonsmasher

It's quite clear that several people commenting on this thread should be excused from jury service.

The psychiatric evidence is the basis on which we judge this lady guilty and culpable or guilty but insane.

The nature of the crime - a parent who suffers from mental illness with a history of psychiatric treatment killing her children and attempting suicide - requires a pdychiatric evaluation.

The psychiatrist believed the lady was incapable of knowing right from wrong.

By definition she was insane and it's open and shut. She wasn't responsible for her actions.

She needs to be treated until such time as she is well again. If she recovers she can get on with normal life.

That's the law and how psychiatric patients judged to be insane are treated.

The deaths of the children is tragedy as if they were killed by a flood or an escaped lion. The flood or the lion are not evil and neither is an insane person who takes a life.

MoonUnit75

newuser99999 wrote: »

Contents of the suicide letters were withheld by gardai as they were too upsetting. He’s been exhumed since too. Talk about suiting your own narrative posting that.

My point is that the stories about Hawe being extremely domineering, controlling, and abusive were publicly refuted in the days after the killings by Clodagh's own sister. She also later said in a radio interview that had he been abusive they would have known about it.

Are you arguing that the suicide letter was him recounting being abusive, controlling and not letting Clodagh go anywhere alone? My understanding is that all these claims were made before anyone except the Gardai were aware of what was in the letter. It suited the ideological PR bonanza that his crime presented.

pjohnson

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

It's quite clear that several people commenting on this thread should be excused from jury service.

The psychiatric evidence is the basis on which we judge this lady guilty and culpable or guilty but insane.

The nature of the crime - a parent who suffers from mental illness with a history of psychiatric treatment killing her children and attempting suicide - requires a pdychiatric evaluation.

The psychiatrist believed the lady was incapable of knowing right from wrong.

By definition she was insane and it's open and shut. She wasn't responsible for her actions.

She needs to be treated until such time as she is well again. If she recovers she can get on with normal life.

That's the law and how psychiatric patients judged to be insane are treated.

The deaths of the children is tragedy as if they were killed by a flood or an escaped lion. The flood or the lion are not evil and neither is an insane person who takes a life.

So shes supposed to be allowed back working as a paediatric nurse after what she did to children?

I cant see any parents happy at that idea.

py2006

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

The deaths of the children is tragedy as if they were killed by a flood or an escaped lion. The flood or the lion are not evil and neither is an insane person who takes a life.

As opposed to the sane people who normally kill.

FYI, Lions kill for food
floods don't have a conscience

monkeybutter

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

It's quite clear that several people commenting on this thread should be excused from jury service.

The psychiatric evidence is the basis on which we judge this lady guilty and culpable or guilty but insane.

The nature of the crime - a parent who suffers from mental illness with a history of psychiatric treatment killing her children and attempting suicide - requires a pdychiatric evaluation.

The psychiatrist believed the lady was incapable of knowing right from wrong.

By definition she was insane and it's open and shut. She wasn't responsible for her actions.

She needs to be treated until such time as she is well again. If she recovers she can get on with normal life.

That's the law and how psychiatric patients judged to be insane are treated.

The deaths of the children is tragedy as if they were killed by a flood or an escaped lion. The flood or the lion are not evil and neither is an insane person who takes a life.

Is this the psychiatric profession who failed so spectacularly to stop this in the first place

Your comparison is actually sickening

littlevillage

She needs to be treated until such time as she is well again. If she recovers she can get on with normal life.


Normal life in prison for the rest of her life....hopefully. Which is what would have happened from the get-go if she was a man.

corner of hells

pjohnson wrote: »

So shes supposed to be allowed back working as a paediatric nurse after what she did to children?

I cant see any parents happy at that idea.

Nurses have to be registered with An Bord Altranas , do you seriously think she'd be allowed work as a nurse again.

boardise

jmayo wrote: »

What else is he going to say ?
Fry her?

I can't ever see them together again.

How many guys here would ever ever forgive their partner if they did this?

How could anyone live together in any form of normality with this hanging over them.

Of course there are some here who will probably brand a guy something or other because he would not support his wife. :rolleyes:

Wouldn't fancy sleeping in the same house as this lady . It seems to be the case that insanity can come and go -so not really cast iron certain it couldn't break out again in some other unpredictable form.

Samsonsmasher

Strumms wrote: »

Mental illness and insanity are basically different manifestations and levels of the same problem... a problem that requires treating and as a greater priority one which people need protecting from.... if that means instatutionalizing individuals to protect society and treat people if thats possible.. we do it...

People stiĺl need to be held to account and punished for crimes.

A person who is insane is not responsible for their actions by definition. They can't be punished. They are patients and they need treatment. Once they are cured and no longer a threat they are released.

Many years ago a young man suffering from mental illness killed his girlfriend and her mother with a rifle. He was insane and committed. He later absconded and crossed the border and lived in the UK where I understand he got a job married and had children. He was returned to Ireland years after. He was insane at the time of the killings was found to have recovered and was declared a free man. And rightly so.

If he had mental illness but knew right from wrong at the time of the killing after being assessed by a psychiatrist he would not be insane but guilty of murder and would have got life in prison and deserved his punishment.

You are missing the whole point completely.

JackTC

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

It's quite clear that several people commenting on this thread should be excused from jury service.

The psychiatric evidence is the basis on which we judge this lady guilty and culpable or guilty but insane.

The nature of the crime - a parent who suffers from mental illness with a history of psychiatric treatment killing her children and attempting suicide - requires a pdychiatric evaluation.

The psychiatrist believed the lady was incapable of knowing right from wrong.

By definition she was insane and it's open and shut. She wasn't responsible for her actions.

She needs to be treated until such time as she is well again. If she recovers she can get on with normal life.

That's the law and how psychiatric patients judged to be insane are treated.

The deaths of the children is tragedy as if they were killed by a flood or an escaped lion. The flood or the lion are not evil and neither is an insane person who takes a life.

But she did know it was wrong, she left a note acknowledging that it was wrong. She stated in psychiatric interviews that she knew it was wrong.

Ellie2008

monkeybutter wrote: »

Is this the psychiatric profession who failed so spectacularly to stop this in the first place

Your comparison is actually sickening

I don’t think the comparison is sickening tbh but neither do I accept the opinion of the psychiatrist is infallible Because that’s what it is - an opinion, an expert opinion but still an opinion. It’s not like a physical disease where the diagnoses can be verified based on blood tests, scans etc.

The case technically seems to have centred on whether she knew what she was doing was wrong. I just don’t know. I find it hard not to sympathise with a woman who was suffering, who was by all accounts a good mother, a great one even. But her own words around her oldest son’s death, I assume that that’s why the jury asked to consider the killings separately. It seems in that moment she did know what she was doing was wrong.

pjohnson

corner of hells wrote: »

Nurses have to be registered with An Bord Altranas , do you seriously think she'd be allowed work as a nurse again.

Hopefully not, but I didnt think she'd be found not guilty.

Samsonsmasher

JackTC wrote: »

But she did know it was wrong, she left a note acknowledging that it was wrong. She stated in psychiatric interviews that she knew it was wrong.

There's more to it than that. A psychiatrist assessed her and found she didn't know right from wrong. Her note and her claims are not enough. The psychiatric assessment gives a full picture and revealed her mental illness caused her insanity.

Faugheen

pjohnson wrote: »

So shes supposed to be allowed back working as a paediatric nurse after what she did to children?

I cant see any parents happy at that idea.

If she is deemed well enough to no longer need treatment at the CMH.

She'll probably never work as a nurse again, but at the end of the day the verdict reads as, by reason of insanity, not guilty.

Faugheen

JackTC wrote: »

But she did know it was wrong, she left a note acknowledging that it was wrong. She stated in psychiatric interviews that she knew it was wrong.

Both the prosecution and defence had experts who say she didn't.