Not Guilty by reason of Insanity READ OP FIRST

Feisar

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

It's quite clear that several people commenting on this thread should be excused from jury service.

An interesting point, and then there is the sentiment, "judged by a jury of your peers".

I have struggled to then understand instructions from the judge to the jury. In that why does a judge have a right to sway a juries leaning?

Anyway, hopefully she does the decent thing and commits Seppuku.

Samsonsmasher

Ellie2008 wrote: »

I don’t think the comparison is sickening tbh but neither do I accept the opinion of the psychiatrist is infallible Because that’s what it is - an opinion, an expert opinion but still an opinion. It’s not like a physical disease where the diagnoses can be verified based on blood tests, scans etc.

The case technically seems to have centred on whether she knew what she was doing was wrong. I just don’t know. I find it hard not to sympathise with a woman who was suffering, who was by all accounts a good mother, a great one even. But her own words around her oldest son’s death, I assume that that’s why the jury asked to consider the killings separately. It seems in that moment she did know what she was doing was wrong.

Yet you aren't a psychiatrist who's job it is to assess whether someone is insane or not?

A professional assessment was done and the psychiatrist testified to the jury of twelve people.
She was found guilty but insane.

Open and shut

Faugheen

Feisar wrote: »

An interesting point, and then there is the sentiment, "judged by a jury of your peers".

I have struggled to then understand instructions from the judge to the jury. In that why does a judge have a right to sway a juries leaning?

So the jury knows what the evidence means in law, and not what it means in emotion or prejudice.

I cut out your last line because it's horrific

monkeybutter

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

Yet you aren't a psychiatrist who's job it is to assess whether someone is insane or not?

A professional assessment was done and the psychiatrist testified to the jury of twelve people.
She was found guilty but insane.

Open and shut

What sane person strangles their 3 young children

Samsonsmasher

Feisar wrote: »

An interesting point, and then there is the sentiment, "judged by a jury of your peers".

I have struggled to then understand instructions from the judge to the jury. In that why does a judge have a right to sway a juries leaning?

Anyway, hopefully she does the decent thing and commits Seppuku.

A judge gives directions to juries all the time. A judge can order a jury to disregard inadmissible evidence or testimony or negative press coverage for example.

The lady is not responsible for her actions. She is insane. She is ill.

Not only are some posters on this thread not fit to sit on a jury but not fit to have ill vulnerable people in their care.

CoBo55

Feisar wrote: »

An interesting point, and then there is the sentiment, "judged by a jury of your peers".

I have struggled to then understand instructions from the judge to the jury. In that why does a judge have a right to sway a juries leaning?

Anyway, hopefully she does the decent thing and commits Seppuku.

That last line is shocking you should be ashamed of yourself.

monkeybutter

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

A person who is insane is not responsible for their actions by definition. They can't be punished. They are patients and they need treatment. Once they are cured and no longer a threat they are released.

Many years ago a young man suffering from mental illness killed his girlfriend and her mother with a rifle. He was insane and committed. He later absconded and crossed the border and lived in the UK where I understand he got a job married and had children. He was returned to Ireland years after. He was insane at the time of the killings was found to have recovered and was declared a free man. And rightly so.

If he had mental illness but knew right from wrong at the time of the killing after being assessed by a psychiatrist he would not be insane but guilty of murder and would have got life in prison and deserved his punishment.

You are missing the whole point completely.

He was sane enough to jump ship anyway

I mean this is a classic case if someone who wasn't insane played the system and got away with it

lrushe

I've tried so hard to see things from her point of view, to try have compassion for a woman not in her right mind but all I can feel is the fear and confusion her poor children must have felt when the person they trusted most in the world slowly ebbed their lives away and I just can't get beyond that.
My nine year old is sitting here beside me and I just can't imagine how my mind could get to the point where I would do him harm.

Samsonsmasher

monkeybutter wrote: »

What sane person strangles their 3 young children

Sane persons are convicted of killing all the time including killing children. If a person kills and knows it is wrong they are guilty if a psychiatrist assesses them and finds they did know right from wrong.

Casati

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

She was found guilty but insane.

Open and shut

Sorry but she wasn’t found guilty of anything. She pleaded not guilty to murder and was found not guilty. You have stated that she was found guilty but insane a number of times, where are you getting this from?

Ellie2008

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

Yet you aren't a psychiatrist who's job it is to assess whether someone is insane or not?

A professional assessment was done and the psychiatrist testified to the jury of twelve people.
She was found guilty but insane.

Open and shut

No nor did I say I was. I simply said the evidence of a psychiatrist is a matter of opinion that cannot be verified by machine testing.

I disagree that any case involving an opinion on the brain even an expert one is open & shut.

Samsonsmasher

monkeybutter wrote: »

He was sane enough to jump ship anyway

I mean this is a classic case if someone who wasn't insane played the system and got away with it

He had recovered his sanity and was no longer mentally ill by the time he absconded. When he returned to Ireland he was assessed and was judged to be no longer mentally ill or insanity so he walked.

TP_CM

It's such a strange case. How do you reach that level of insanity so far on in life? They keep talking about stress and anxiety throughout her adult life, and self doubting her ability to parent. But every person I've ever met has suffered from that. This is a woman who did well in school and college, became a professional, had a wedding day, celebrated baby showers, built a career and a family for years. I mean you can't keep 3 young kids alive for so long unless you have a certain ability to plan, solve problems, and tolerate difficult situations. But suddenly within what seems like 12 months she became completely detached.

I'd say talking to her, she's not schizophrenic or bi-polar, she's probably fairly coherent and rational and just had a complete breakdown that day because rearing three kids was overly stressful. But what happens now that all that's gone? When she goes to the mental hospital? She's probably more coherent and rational than some of the workers there now. In 5 years or 10 years does she just hang around, reading the newspaper and watching tv or what? She's not exactly someone who's going to stare into a corner for the rest of her life.

Faugheen

Ellie2008 wrote: »

No nor did I say I was. I simply said the evidence of a psychiatrist is a matter of opinion that cannot be verified by machine testing.

I disagree that any case involving an opinion on the brain even an expert one is open & shut.

What about two opinions?

pjohnson

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

A judge gives directions to juries all the time. A judge can order a jury to disregard inadmissible evidence or testimony or negative press coverage for example.

The lady is not responsible for her actions. She is insane. She is ill.

Not only are some posters on this thread not fit to sit on a jury but not fit to have ill vulnerable people in their care.

Unless they get found "not guilty" then they can carry on happily right?

Jeremy Sproket

bubblypop wrote: »

Why?
In your expert opinion?

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Given that the experts from both sides agreed, this was the likely verdict.

Car99 wrote: »

Good job you weren't on the jury or any jury for that matter.

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Three psychiatrists for the defence and prosecution disagree with you .

If it was a psychotic man (ie, Alan Hawe) no one would feel an ounce of sympahty (and rightly so).

If it were the father who did this I doubt the judge would be guiding the jury towards a not guilty verdict.

This is yet another situation where women get leniency in the Irish justice system. It will be a travety of justice if she is deemed fit to reenter society only after a few short years.

I hope for her husbands sake he divorces her and he gets all of the money and marital assets, because you can be damned sure that would happen it it was the other way around.

Her murders were not spur of the moment, they were premeditated and planned. She had tried to poison them before.

Lets hope nurse ratchet NEVER gets a job caring for anyone ever again. I'd rather die in a sewer than risk being cared for by her.

RIP to the Kids and condolonces to Mr. McGinley.

Samsonsmasher

Ellie2008 wrote: »

No nor did I say I was. I simply said the evidence of a psychiatrist is a matter of opinion that cannot be verified by machine testing.

I disagree that any case involving an opinion on the brain even an expert one is open & shut.

Guilt or insanity is not assessed by machine testing. It is assessed by a jury of 12.

monkeybutter

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

Sane persons are convicted of killing all the time including killing children. If a person kills and knows it is wrong they are guilty if a psychiatrist assesses them and finds they did know right from wrong.

No one who is of sound mind would do this, sorry

Faugheen

pjohnson wrote: »

Unless they get found "not guilty" then they can carry on happily right?

This is overly black and white

Tilden Katz

py2006 wrote: »

Oh leave the feminist nonsense out of this.

In a thread chockablock with “If this was a man, the verdict would be way different!” type comments (that conveniently ignored examples where men received the not guilty by insanity verdict), I can’t believe you had the gall to write this.

Jeremy Sproket

Certain people are master manipulators as well.

I think she is guilty as sin.

Swindled

The whole thing smacks of Double standards, especially with regard to the media's reporting of it.

JackTC

TP_CM wrote: »

It's such a strange case. How do you reach that level of insanity so far on in life? They keep talking about stress and anxiety throughout her adult life, and self doubting her ability to parent. But every person I've ever met has suffered from that. This is a woman who did well in school and college, became a professional, had a wedding day, celebrated baby showers, built a career and a family for years. I mean you can't keep 3 young kids alive for so long unless you have a certain ability to plan, solve problems, and tolerate difficult situations. But suddenly within what seems like 12 months she became completely detached.

I'd say talking to her, she's not schizophrenic or bi-polar, she's probably fairly coherent and rational and just had a complete breakdown that day because rearing three kids was overly stressful. But what happens now that all that's gone? When she goes to the mental hospital? She's probably more coherent and rational than some of the workers there now. In 5 years or 10 years does she just hang around, reading the newspaper and watching tv or what? She's not exactly someone who's going to stare into a corner for the rest of her life.

Postpartum depression was mentioned last year (can't find the link) and that can exacerbate bipolar symptoms or in this case postpartum psychosis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_depression)

She probably led a fairly normal life that was plagued by episodes of depression . The birth of her third child could have just pushed the depression in to the psychotic stage.

As you said she went to college, had a careers, wedding, family... so something must have pushed her over the edge.

KerryConnor

A family member committed suicide 2 years ago. Their depression had become psychotic and in their note they apologised but said God had told them to do it and they were terrified of what would happen to us all if they didn't follow these instructions from God. This is someone who had appeared 'normal' as they went about their plans to kill themselves. They were still working in their job with these delusions and no one around them would have known how unwell they are. They were attending doctors sporadically but not on the right medication or being monitored closely enough.
So so unbearably sad for that poor family

Jeremy Sproket

Swindled wrote: »

The whole thing smacks of Double standards, especially with regard to the media's reporting of it.

Can the leniency be appealed and retried?

I hate the goalpost shifting that goes on in the Irish justice system

In some cases the judge accepts a majority verdict and in some cases they require a unanimous verdict. Then they start basically telling the jury how to vote.

We should abolish the jury and move towards a panel of judges as per the Civil Law system.

Ellie2008

Faugheen wrote: »

What about two opinions?

Two opinions is just that it’s two opinions, what of it. I don’t accept that psychiatry is some sort of black & white practice. It’s isn’t. Neither is it removed from the life experience & views of the person giving the opinion.

If you read Ms.Morley’s own description of her eldest son’s death - she thought to herself I can’t do this, this is awful but then thought I’ve killed his siblings, what will he think of me. Based on that at the time she killed her eldest son it seems she did know it was wrong.

pjohnson

Seeing the 3 kids playing and the dad talking about them is heartbreaking.

Then they mention "highly skilled paedeatric nurse", vomit inducing.

She shouldn't ever dare be released from her room. Enough killers and criminals on the streets.

Such a dreadful case.

Darc19

jk23 wrote: »

I don't find a child murderer getting a new identity very funny??

It's insensitive assholes like you that cause so many people with mental health issues not to seek help.

Stupid people don't see it as an illness.

jk23

Darc19 wrote: »

It's insensitive assholes like you that cause so many people with mental health issues not to seek help.

Stupid people don't see it as an illness.

I have sympathy for people with mental illness just not those who kill 3 vulnerable innocent children.

Ironic you mention mental illness and in the same post call me an asshole. You don't know me or what I have gone through. I never thought of hurting someone else because of suffering depression which I have had.

monkeybutter

pjohnson wrote: »

Seeing the 3 kids playing and the dad talking about them is heartbreaking.

Then they mention "highly skilled paedeatric nurse", vomit inducing.

She shouldn't ever dare be released from her room. Enough killers and criminals on the streets.

Such a dreadful case.

Must be in a bad place to consider going on prime time