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Not Guilty by reason of Insanity READ OP FIRST

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    #392
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Ellie2008 wrote: »
    Two opinions is just that it’s two opinions, what of it. I don’t accept that psychiatry is some sort of black & white practice. It’s isn’t. Neither is it removed from the life experience & views of the person giving the opinion.

    If you read Ms.Morley’s own description of her eldest son’s death - she thought to herself I can’t do this, this is awful but then thought I’ve killed his siblings, what will he think of me. Based on that at the time she killed her eldest son it seems she did know it was wrong.

    You are saying it is not black and white in your first paragraph and yet in your second you are giving a black and white look at one particular moment in time.

    You completely ignored the fact that just before that she said "I had to have [thought it was wrong]," implying that she didn't know at the time.

    I would trust two qualified opinions, one from prosecution and one from the defence, over the unqualified opinion of someone who clearly has emotions (understandably) and prejudice.


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    #393
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Swindled wrote: »
    The whole thing smacks of Double standards, especially with regard to the media's reporting of it.

    Another comment from someone who clearly doesn't know the law.

    What exactly is 'double standards' about the media's reporting of this?


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    #394
    Jeremy Sproket
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭Jeremy Sproket


    Darc19 wrote: »
    It's insensitive assholes like you that cause so many people with mental health issues not to seek help.

    Stupid people don't see it as an illness.

    I've just reported you. Have a nice day :)


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    #395
    Ellie2008
    Registered Users Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭Ellie2008


    Faugheen wrote: »
    You are saying it is not black and white in your first paragraph and yet in your second you are giving a black and white look at one particular moment in time.

    You completely ignored the fact that just before that she said "I had to have [thought it was wrong]," implying that she didn't know at the time.

    I would trust two qualified opinions, one from prosecution and one from the defence, over the unqualified opinion of someone who clearly has emotions (understandably) and prejudice.

    So are psychiatrists removed from emotion & prejudice?


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    #396
    TP_CM
    Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭TP_CM


    JackTC wrote: »
    Postpartum depression was mentioned last year (can't find the link) and that can exacerbate bipolar symptoms or in this case postpartum psychosis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_depression)

    She probably led a fairly normal life that was plagued by episodes of depression . The birth of her third child could have just pushed the depression in to the psychotic stage.

    As you said she went to college, had a careers, wedding, family... so something must have pushed her over the edge.

    Yes it's quite strange. I just think that something did push her over the edge and now that that 'something' (stressful family life / work commitments / failing marriage/ who knows) is gone, will she eventually heal back to the old educated/plan ahead/create joyous moments type person.

    I suppose my main wonder is what happens when you put a person, who was momentarily insane, in a hospital for the rest of their lives with people who are psychopaths, schizophrenic, or severely bi polar. I don't think I've ever heard of that before.


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    #397
    Sephiroth_dude
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 80,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sephiroth_dude


    I know this is a emotive topic but please post in a civil manner or don't post at all.


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    #398
    corner of hells
    Registered Users Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    Jeremy Sproket wrote: »
    Can the leniency be appealed and retried?

    I hate the goalpost shifting that goes on in the Irish justice system

    In some cases the judge accepts a majority verdict and in some cases they require a unanimous verdict. Then they start basically telling the jury how to vote.

    We should abolish the jury and move towards a panel of judges as per the Civil Law system.

    What leniency?
    Shes currently being treated in the CMH , no instruction has been made about her dentention/treatment yet.

    Are you suggesting jury trials are abolished across the board ?


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    #399
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,640 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    joe40 wrote: »
    I can understand that up to a point but in this particular case the medical experts for both sides and both legal teams accepted the insanity case.
    I can't believe those experts were hoodwinked or overly influenced by emotion as opposed to psychiatric medicine.
    Even the husband can accept the verdict.
    Each case is different, in this case there seems to be a clear medical consensus.
    As a non medical person I can accept that.

    Emotion, gender all kinds of things can come into wider debate but in that courthouse the only factors were medical and legal.
    Comparisons with other cases is moot. No two are the same.
    Excellent post.


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    #400
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Ellie2008 wrote: »
    So are psychiatrists removed from emotion & prejudice?

    The DPP will have a number of psychiatrists who would be asked to assess murder suspects in cases like this, in case they do try to claim insanity when they're not.

    They would assess the suspect in initial interviews with Gardai and through their own assessments as well.

    The defence, if they wish, would look for a second opinion.

    Its the jobs of these people to give detailed and fact-based accounts of what their assessment is and why they have come to that conclusion.

    The more you post the more you are moving to a certain direction which would imply some form of corruption. You have admitted yourself you are not qualified and you also clearly don't know how the process works.

    Psychiatrists are used in murder cases all the time. This isn't some new phenomenon that they might not be used to doing.


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    #401
    Fred Daly
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Fred Daly


    The mental health services are appalling in this country.


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    #402
    Burt Renaults
    Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults


    NIMAN wrote: »
    There's not much that can be said about this entire case.

    And here we are, twenty-seven pages later.

    Horrible case.


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    #403
    Jeremy Sproket
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭Jeremy Sproket


    Maybe all defendants and plaintiffs should be anonymous.

    The judge will receive impartial information and only material facts. IE, person A did this to person B. Person C retaliated ... and so on. No mention of gender, ethnicity or skin coloutr.

    Then I can guarantee we'd see a level playing field.

    Men are house in cattle sheds of a prison compared to women.

    Women have an ensuite, men have a metal toilet in the middle of their cell.
    Women have private showers, men have communal.
    Women have the key to their own cell and most can enter and leave into the city centre. Men are houses and locked like animals.


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    #404
    sporina
    Registered Users Posts: 6,890 ✭✭✭sporina


    this case is being discussed on Primetime now


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    #405
    Ellie2008
    Registered Users Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭Ellie2008


    Faugheen wrote: »
    The DPP will have a number of psychiatrists who would be asked to assess murder suspects in cases like this, in case they do try to claim insanity when they're not.

    They would assess the suspect in initial interviews with Gardai and through their own assessments as well.

    The defence, if they wish, would look for a second opinion.

    Its the jobs of these people to give detailed and fact-based accounts of what their assessment is and why they have come to that conclusion.

    The more you post the more you are moving to a certain direction which would imply some form of corruption. You have admitted yourself you are not qualified and you also clearly don't know how the process works.

    Psychiatrists are used in murder cases all the time. This isn't some new phenomenon that they might not be used to doing.

    Goodness how incredibly incredibly patronising of you. I don’t live under a rock I’m well aware that psychiatrists are used in murder cases on a regular basis. I actually do know how the process works but thanks for the 101.

    I’m hardly “implying some form of corruption” by stating I don’t think the views of a psychiatrist are immune from emotion & prejudice. But I think that’s entirely secondary to psychiatry being an ever evolving practice heavily influenced by the views of wider society. For example, homosexuality was previously classed as a “mental illness”.

    Did Ms.Morley know at the moment she killed each of her children that she was doing was wrong. From what I have read it seems there is evidence to suggest that at the time she killed her eldest child she did know it was wrong.


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    #406
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,417 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    sporina wrote: »
    this case is being discussed on Primetime now

    It's only on a few mins and it's already a hard watch


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    #407
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,401 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Heartbreaking. Pure and simple.


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    #408
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm not going to comment on the case. It's horrific and it literally hurts just reading about it. I was giving my own kids extra hugs tonight.

    What I will comment on is the media. There have been a couple of cases, like this, recently in Ireland and the UK.
    Some cases, rightly, have highlighted the dangers of untreated mental illnesses and how, on occasion, we all need support from families and, at times, the state to help us get well. Highlighting the underspend on mental health and, still, backward mentality of certain sections.
    The other cases have portrayed the perpetrators inhuman monsters, deserving off all kinds of hell, and castigating those who mention the above mentioned lack of mental health facilities.

    It seems, totally in my own honest observations, that when a mother commits these acts then it's a tragedy but when a father does it then it's pure evil.


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    #409
    sporina
    Registered Users Posts: 6,890 ✭✭✭sporina


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    It's only on a few mins and it's already a hard watch
    lawred2 wrote: »
    Heartbreaking. Pure and simple.

    yep - not only has he lost his kids but his wife too..


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    #410
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Immortal Starlight wrote: »
    I definitely do not agree with this verdict. She should have been found guilty.

    Who should be found guilty is the husband. You don't turn insane over night, this was building up for many years. What did he do?!


    Thread banned.


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    #411
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,401 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    I can't ever imagine seeing a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity for a father.


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    #412
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,401 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    grogi wrote: »
    Who should be found guilty is the husband. You don't turn insane over night, this was building up for many years. What did he do?!

    Ah here that's an appalling thing to come out with


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    #413
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Ellie2008 wrote: »
    Did Ms.Morley know at the moment she killed each of her children that she was doing was wrong. From what I have read it seems there is evidence to suggest that at the time she killed her eldest child she did know it was wrong.

    According to two qualified psychiatrists, no she didn't.

    You have read one line in her statement to Gardai that might suggest that but like I said, I will trust two psychiatrists who combined would have spent hours assessing her over someone who is clearly looking for a reason to doubt their evidence.

    Like I said, you quoted that one line from her Garda statements while ignoring other lines which suggested she might not have know at that very moment in time.

    You have clearly made your mind up about the case and you're posting in bad faith, asking me questions about if she knew she was wrong at the time. I'm not qualified to answer that, and neither are you.

    However only one of us is trying to play the armchair psychiatrist and it isn't me.

    Call me patronising all you want, but you aren't asking questions or probing because that would imply you want to get some understanding. You don't want to understand anything because you have already made up your mind.


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    #414
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I don’t know how that poor man is still standing. He’s amazing.


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    #415
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    lawred2 wrote: »
    I can't ever imagine seeing a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity for a father.

    You don't need to imagine anything because it has happened.


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    #416
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users Posts: 86,761 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Faugheen wrote: »
    I'm sorry but if you're reading it more and more and then coming to this conclusion then you're clearly not reading it properly at all.

    We will just have to disagree
    https://forumofgames.com/




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    #417
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The YouTube channel he set up for his eldest lad is f*cking heart breaking


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    #418
    Sephiroth_dude
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 80,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sephiroth_dude


    grogi wrote: »
    Who should be found guilty is the husband. You don't turn insane over night, this was building up for many years. What did he do?!

    Do not post in here again.


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    #419
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,670 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    lawred2 wrote: »
    I can't ever imagine seeing a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity for a father.

    Really? Why not?
    https://www.donegaldaily.com/2016/06/09/carndonagh-man-who-killed-parents-with-axe-not-guilty-of-murder/

    Or here:
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0722/65725-carrolla/


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    #420
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,417 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Terrible news stories generally don't get to me, but I had to turn this one off.

    That man has tremendous strength.


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    #421
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    JP Liz V1 wrote: »
    We will just have to disagree

    How can you possibly keep reading this and conclude what you are concluding? Seriously?

    How can you read this and get angrier and angrier?

    Are you reading the testimonies of not one, but two, psychiatrists that give an insight into her frame of mind at the time?

    Are you reading the statement from Andrew?

    Seriously, psychiatrists, the prosecution, defence, jury and husband all agree with this outcome yet for some reason you think otherwise.

    I absolutely understand with three beautiful children involved (I've been hugging my own daughter a lot more over the last number of days) that it can lead to emotional reactions but you are simply not reading this case properly.


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