Not Guilty by reason of Insanity READ OP FIRST

Gatling

I believe she should get all the treatment she's needs and then spend the rest of her natural life locked up ,
The idea of someone like her being free to walk the streets if a psychologist says she's safe to to so after 12 months of treatment ,
I'm all for compassion but justice needs to be served too

Baggly

Mod

Far too much whataboutery and strawmanning taking place in this thread. Please cut it out and discuss the topic at hand.

Also far too much uncivil discussion here as well. Express your feelings and opinions on the topic by all means, but keep it civil. I have and will continue to card anyone wishing harm to other people in this thread.

Finally, please remember that a) everyone involved in this case (including her husband) has accepted her insanity in this case and b) family and friends who have suffered a terrible tragedy could conceivably be reading your comments.

nialler1978

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Andrew showed incredible understanding for his wife . He is amazingly strong and I hope he finds strength from his childrens legacy

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/deirdre-morleys-husband-andrew-mcginleyseeks-urgent-inquiry-into-her-care-prior-to-childrens-deaths-40451471.html

Is he standing by her through all of this? No matter what your thoughts are on the whole thing, the outcome of the trial or just how mentally ill she is/was I don't know how anybody could stand by their husband or wife after killing their children.

Ellie2008

nialler1978 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/deirdre-morleys-husband-andrew-mcginleyseeks-urgent-inquiry-into-her-care-prior-to-childrens-deaths-40451471.html

Is he standing by her through all of this? No matter what your thoughts are on the whole thing, the outcome of the trial or just how mentally ill she is/was I don't know how anybody could stand by their husband or wife after killing their children.

I think it’s not entirely clear what the status of their relationship is. It seems he is but he said he finds it difficult to disassociate her from what happened although he accepts the insanity verdict. I think I’d feel the same if I were in his shoes.

I think he’s right to question his wife’s treatment, particularly why he was not more involved. It’s a very delicate balance. Ireland has a long history of family members institutionalising their daughters etc. So how do you give someone appropriate care & respect their freedoms & right to privacy.

Andrew seems like a doting husband & almost perfect father. The way he spoke about his kids, coming home to do his last call at home to spend more time with them. Frankly at times I just want to get away from mine.

silver2020

One of the results from this is a possible change in how the medical profession can discuss the issue with family members.

Currently a psychiatrist or gp cannot make contact with another family member without the express permission of the patient. The patient can withdraw this permission at anytime and even if they are judge to be mentally unwell, the medic must abide by that decision.

This needs to change and a psychiatrist should be able to use his/her qualified judgement and reach a decision of when it is in the patient's interest that issues are communicated to a family member without the fear of some ambulance chasing legal vulture looking at the opportunity for a big payday of their costs.

As for those who are using this thread to say dreadful things about the mother, it is exactly this lack of understanding and compassion that prevents so many people from opening up about mental issues.


Those people should take a leaf from the book of the father who has shown tremendous strength and compassion and understanding even though he is the one that is suffering most of all.

ek motor

A human tragedy , she should never be released from custody. Absolute minimum punishment should be a whole-life tariff. Probably the most vile case I've ever heard.

smurgen

Desperate case and I feel massively for the husband. I do not know if the verdict is right or not but I am alarmed at the words of the judge , surely there is evidence pointing in conflicting directions and some doubt? It just seems like bizarre wording from a judge

"Mr Justice Paul Coffey told jurors: “In this sad and tragic case there is no contest as to what the correct verdict should be. The evidence is all one way.”

FileNotFound

ek motor wrote: »

A human tragedy , she should never be released from custody. Absolute minimum punishment should be a whole-life tariff. Probably the most vile case I've ever heard.

I agree entirely, if you can go off the reservation by that much you should never be allowed to be in public again.

Was chatting to a Canadian friend and they said that people who plead insanity in Canada tend to end up incarcerated for far longer than those that don't.

I would fully support a change to this here.

silver2020

silver2020 wrote: »

As for those who are using this thread to say dreadful things about the mother, it is exactly this lack of understanding and compassion that prevents so many people from opening up about mental issues.
.

I have exactly the same amount of compassion for this woman Asni do for the like of Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ed Bundy, Myra Hyndley etc

It's absolutely ridiculous to say that saying something bad about this woman is adding to mental issues

It's actually more alarming and more detrimental to mental health that some people are showing sympathy for this woman.

Sweet.Science

Its a real grey area mental illness being a reason to get away with murder . I assume most who commit atrocities have some sort of mental disorder

Just on this one. Its the only case in my life i couldn't read the details on . I started but had to stop.

smurgen

smurgen wrote: »

Desperate case and I feel massively for the husband. I do not know if the verdict is right or not but I am alarmed at the words of the judge , surely there is evidence pointing in conflicting directions and some doubt? It just seems like bizarre wording from a judge

"Mr Justice Paul Coffey told jurors: “In this sad and tragic case there is no contest as to what the correct verdict should be. The evidence is all one way.”

Both the prosecution's and the defence's psychiatric experts testified that they believed the defendant to be clinically insane.

If the prosecution is satisfied that the defendant was clinically insane then there's no contest.

Sweet.Science

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Its a real grey area mental illness being a reason to get away with murder . I assume most who commit atrocities have some sort of mental disorder

Just on this one. Its the only case in my life i couldn't read the details on . I started but had to stop.

There's a vast difference between having a mental illness and being clinically insane.

nialler1978

Gatling wrote: »

I believe she should get all the treatment she's needs and then spend the rest of her natural life locked up ,
The idea of someone like her being free to walk the streets if a psychologist says she's safe to to so after 12 months of treatment ,
I'm all for compassion but justice needs to be served too

I know someone very well that was in the central mental hospital and there is no sudden reentry into society. It's a long gradual process, the later stage was living in his own quarters on the grounds in a small granny flat type of building, this was for several years. He would not initially be cooking or washing clothes etc for himself but did at some point. There were then visits off the grounds where there was a security officer from the hospital and a psychiatric nurse nearby in whatever meeting place we went to. He wasn't restrained and he would be in plain clothes and so would the staff. They wouldn't be involved or listening to the conversation, it wasn't intrusive or tense and they would for the most part stay out of it. This went on over the course of about two years I think, I met him several times. He was released into society after a very long period but was essentially an outpatient where he would go to the hospital very regularly and the services would visit him at home. I know its case by case basis but the point I was trying to make was its not like prison where someone gets a release date and off you go. His case was nothing close to the Morley case in terms of severity.

Sweet.Science

Lollipops23 wrote: »

She presented at a hospital weeks before the murder, pleading for help.

Hawe didn't- he just wanted to murder his kids, for his own selfish reasons.]

I'm glad she's going to get the help she needs- for everyone's safety.

Bit late for that she already killed her 3 children FFS

silver2020

smurgen wrote: »

"Mr Justice Paul Coffey told jurors: “In this sad and tragic case there is no contest as to what the correct verdict should be. The evidence is all one way.”

Yes, both the prosecution evidence and the defence evidence and the expert testimony from both sides was the same and the judge rightly pointed that out.

Ash.J.Williams

Curse These Metal Hands wrote: »

At least Ireland is slowly starting to understand the seriousness of mental illness. Heartened to see no character assassinations in the papers this time. Alan Hawe was found to be severely mentally ill by leading psychiatrist Dr. Kennedy but that didn't stop some disgraceful articles being written. People on here were determined to reject his opinion because "evil." We need to try to understand why these types of crimes keep happening.

We need better mental health supports in Ireland.

It was the wife’s family that took offence at the churches positive eulogy that kicked that off

Antares35

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Her family, I wish all the best.

What's left of it

silver2020

Some people seem to think that the mother will get released as soon as she has a letter from her gp that she's OK.

It is near certain that she will be sentenced to be in the care of the Central Mental Hospital until an order is made by the state for her release.

If historical comparisons are looked at, you are looking at circa 20-30 years and that is if you are then deemed safe to be allowed to be released. The same time you'd get for murder.

Lynn Gibbs who killed her daughter and had her own issues has been in the CMH since her arrest in 2006 and trial in 2008 and there are no suggestions that she will be released any time soon even though she has been there for 15 years.

So please do us a favour and stop the mis-information that someone can be released after a year or two.

Samsonsmasher

Gatling wrote: »

I believe she should get all the treatment she's needs and then spend the rest of her natural life locked up ,
The idea of someone like her being free to walk the streets if a psychologist says she's safe to to so after 12 months of treatment ,
I'm all for compassion but justice needs to be served too

On what basis should a patient be locked up for the rest of their life is they are insane at the time of the killings and recover after treatment?
You are aware that people are released from the CMH routinely?

Samsonsmasher

silver2020 wrote: »

Some people seem to think that the mother will get released as soon as she has a letter from her gp that she's OK.

It is near certain that she will be sentenced to be in the care of the Central Mental Hospital until an order is made by the state for her release.

If historical comparisons are looked at, you are looking at circa 20-30 years and that is if you are then deemed safe to be allowed to be released. The same time you'd get for murder.

Lynn Gibbs who killed her daughter and had her own issues has been in the CMH since her arrest in 2006 and trial in 2008 and there are no suggestions that she will be released any time soon even though she has been there for 15 years.

So please do us a favour and stop the mis-information that someone can be released after a year or two.

Gibbs is presumably still very ill. Were she to recover why wouldn't she be released?

Samsonsmasher

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have exactly the same amount of compassion for this woman Asni do for the like of Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ed Bundy, Myra Hyndley etc

It's absolutely ridiculous to say that saying something bad about this woman is adding to mental issues

It's actually more alarming and more detrimental to mental health that some people are showing sympathy for this woman.

Manson Dahmer Bundy Hyndley etc were all sane.

A person who is insane is not responsible for their actions.

JackTC

The question is what happens to her now?

If the medication can keep her stable then she doesn't need to be in there - the CMH is for people who are so mentally impaired that they can't look after themselves. Before all this she had a good career and a home so she doesn't fall into the category of the other patients there.

newuser99999

FileNotFound wrote: »

I agree entirely, if you can go off the reservation by that much you should never be allowed to be in public again.

Was chatting to a Canadian friend and they said that people who plead insanity in Canada tend to end up incarcerated for far longer than those that don't.

I would fully support a change to this here.

Such BS you can’t even plead insanity in Canada

Samsonsmasher

JackTC wrote: »

The question is what happens to her now?

If the medication can keep her stable then she doesn't need to be in there - the CMH is for people who are so mentally impaired that they can't look after themselves. Before all this she had a good career and a home so she doesn't fall into the category of the other patients there.

If or when she is recovered she should be released and return to normal life.

Mullinabreena

Was Deirdre Morley originally from Dublin? I wonder had she much family support around her in the build up to this tragedy?

smurgen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Both the prosecution's and the defence's psychiatric experts testified that they believed the defendant to be clinically insane.

If the prosecution is satisfied that the defendant was clinically insane then there's no contest.

I am a bit confused at the everyone agreed stance and I am wondering how this unanimous conclusion is reached. Experts are not exempt from biases and there could be a group consensus going on. My only reason for saying this is that the defendant was deemed to be mentally well until she wasn't. I find that curious. I am wondering in an area that is subjective and where opinions are not aligned how is it now that they're all aligned? And if she was so obviously insane why was this not picked up by the psychologists prior to this event?

JackTC

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

If or when she is recovered she should be released and return to normal life.

She would be attacked the second she got out.

TP_CM

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

On what basis should a patient be locked up for the rest of their life is they are insane at the time of the killings and recover after treatment?
You are aware that people are released from the CMH routinely?

The problem is she was 'sane' enough just before the killings, right? Whats to say she won't just suddenly go insane again? It's not just the moment of insanity, it's also how easily you can slip into it. All these amazing psychiatrists didn't spot it coming beforehand, why should they have society's trust they can spot that potential now?

joe40

Deleted User wrote: »

I have exactly the same amount of compassion for this woman Asni do for the like of Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ed Bundy, Myra Hyndley etc

It's absolutely ridiculous to say that saying something bad about this woman is adding to mental issues

It's actually more alarming and more detrimental to mental health that some people are showing sympathy for this woman.

And yet all the psychiatric healthcare professional, all the medical teams, all the legal teams, on both sides, think differently. Even the father of the dead children think otherwise.

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion but it does not reflect any of the actual expert opinion in this case.

silverharp

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

On what basis should a patient be locked up for the rest of their life is they are insane at the time of the killings and recover after treatment?
You are aware that people are released from the CMH routinely?

it begs the question does it matter what one does when insane, if its just seen as a purely a medical issue?, what if a near identical case but the individual was single and just killed their cat. The public wouldnt really care so such an individual might be out in a couple of years.
One could make a reasonable case that morley wouldn't be a danger to other people's kids as she wouldnt see other kids as some kind of extension to herself