Not Guilty by reason of Insanity READ OP FIRST

Ellie2008

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

The psychiatrists assessed her so we go on their evidence.

“We” go on nothing. You have an opinion, I have another. I don’t think psychiatrists are beyond question, that is my opinion to which I am entitled. It was reasonably & politely expressed.

Antares35

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we as a society should be thought how to recognise them

In what way? As a taught subject at school? Leaflets left in public libraries? Do you really think this woman would have acted differently if the Joe Soaps had a better understanding of mental health issues? She was in the care of the system, and trained professionals. It still ended in tragedy. So how would the situation have been avoided by lay people being able to recognise problems?

JP Liz V1

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

No. The evidence is not open to interpretation. Things happen only one way. The lady was insane when she killed her children. She is not responsibile for her actions. That is a matter of fact. Not opinion.

So we are not allowed have different views opinions to the court verdict

Wanderer78

Antares35 wrote: »

In what way? As a taught subject at school? Leaflets left in public libraries? Do you really think this woman would have acted differently if the Joe Soaps had a better understanding of mental health issues? She was in the care of the system, and trained professionals. It still ended in tragedy. So how would the situation have been avoided by lay people being able to recognise problems?

...again, we owe this to ourselves, these conditions are actually relatively common, but i suspect most of us, including myself, would not be able to recognize them. yes, there should be publicly available methods for education of all citizens, including within our educational system, and other methods, as doing so, 'might' just prevent such tragic outcomes. yes, theres a possibility if such knowledge was available, this situation may not have occurred, but we have no idea if this is true or not. yes, this also shows exactly the point of major system failure, in particular our health system. if all citizens are well educated in such matters, more may have been available to her and her family for support, in order to try prevent this

suicide_circus

We're in a post objective truth society in which people are encouraged to "speak their own truth" so there are an infinite number of truths at any one time.

Ash.J.Williams

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

So we are not allowed have different views opinions to the court verdict

I should really post this in unpopular opinions but I think there’s more to this case and I thought that from day one , we’ll never know now as the verdict has been given.

Samsonsmasher

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

If a person commits a crime while insane and recovers they are not responsible for their actions and can go free.

Again though, would you leave your children with her?

If not, how can we be sure she’ll never be around children again?

If we can’t be confident that she won’t go “insane” again, then she shouldn’t rejoin society.

Antares35

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...again, we owe this to ourselves, these conditions are actually relatively common, but i suspect most of us, including myself, would not be able to recognize them. yes, there should be publicly available methods for education of all citizens, including within our educational system, and other methods, as doing so, 'might' just prevent such tragic outcomes. yes, theres a possibility if such knowledge was available, this situation may not have occurred, but we have no idea if this is true or not. yes, this also shows exactly the point of major system failure, in particular our health system. if all citizens are well educated in such matters, more may have been available to her and her family for support, in order to try prevent this

This simply re-states your assertion that "society" could have prevented this. It doesn't tell me how. You have no idea how much support she did or did not have.

suicide_circus

I see there is to be an investigation into her care....

Wanderer78

Antares35 wrote: »

This simply re-states your assertion that "society" could have prevented this. It doesn't tell me how. You have no idea how much support she did or did not have.

society at large, including our health system, may have been able to prevent this, but we have no way of actually knowing this for sure, there simply is no way of knowing. no, none of us truly knows how much support this woman has or had, but from my own experiences, i know for a fact, many, with serious psychological conditions and disorders, rarely, if ever, receive adequate supports

JP Liz V1

Was she still working as a nurse right up until the murders?

Ellie2008

suicide_circus wrote: »

I see there is to be an investigation into her care....

Maybe something will come of this that will be of help to others in the future.

iamwhoiam

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Was she still working as a nurse right up until the murders?

No .

Antares35

Wanderer78 wrote: »

society at large, including our health system, may have been able to prevent this, but we have no way of actually knowing this for sure, there simply is no way of knowing. no, none of us truly knows how much support this woman has or had, but from my own experiences, i know for a fact, many, with serious psychological conditions and disorders, rarely, if ever, receive adequate supports

So what's the point insisting that society should have done more if you can't even be prescriptive as to what we should have been doing?

santana75

suicide_circus wrote: »

I see there is to be an investigation into her care....

Saw that alright. I think heads will roll over this one. Although personally I think the real culprit is the society we live in. "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation" I think it can be said "Most people lead lives of quiet desperation". This is not an isolated incident but everytime it happens in the world people say that it was a terrible tragedy and all that but then forget all about it, until the next time theres another murder suicide and the cycle repeats itself over and over. Psychiatric medication is not the answer, you cant treat deep issues like the one this lady had with drugs. Its an insane system that needs to change.

Curse These Metal Hands

volchitsa wrote: »

The counsellor's notes showed depression and anxiety. Not psychosis - that was speculation from Dr Kennedy.

Dr Kennedy didn't speak to anyone who knew him, which means he diagnosed psychosis only on the basis of the notes of a counsellor who hadn't diagnosed psychosis.

You once said that the ability to plan is evidence of clear and non delusional thinking. You also said that no outward signs noticed by family members is evidence of non delusional thinking.

Do you still hold that opinion given the evidence shown in this case?

One eyed Jack

Wanderer78 wrote: »

society at large, including our health system, may have been able to prevent this, but we have no way of actually knowing this for sure, there simply is no way of knowing. no, none of us truly knows how much support this woman has or had, but from my own experiences, i know for a fact, many, with serious psychological conditions and disorders, rarely, if ever, receive adequate supports

How often do circumstances arise in Ireland where someone kills their own children? Rarely.

You simply cannot blame “the system” or “society” for the fact that an individual chooses to hide the fact that they are experiencing difficulties with their mental health, and especially you cannot blame the system or society when that person is in a position where they have greater access to mental health supports than most people in Irish society.

Neither your own experience nor the experience of experts in the area of mental health could have enabled them to foresee circumstances where a parent would kill their own children.

Wanderer78

Antares35 wrote: »

So what's the point insisting that society should have done more if you can't even be prescriptive as to what we should have been doing?

oh ffs! its clearly obvious, even from this case alone, our health care system, particularly the psychological element of our system, is not fit for purpose! imho, it requires an immediate, immediate meaning 'today', multiples of billions of investment, to try deal with these rapidly growing societal issues, this clearly isnt going to happen, in fact it may never!

joe40

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Where we are with regards to mental health issues is that we don’t start conflating a psychotic break with ill mental health or other psychological conditions in order to excuse people for their behaviour or equate killing children with suicide. They’re completely different circumstances. Suicide prevention is an entirely different area of mental healthcare than criminal behaviour, the key distinction being that suicide is not a crime, murder on the other hand, is. How, in your opinion, should society regard parents who kill their own children?

Conflating the circumstances in this particular case with the ongoing issues in the healthcare and legal system in Ireland is a deflection from holding individuals responsible for their own actions, behaviours and attitudes. A qualified paediatric nurse who would undoubtedly have an understanding of the importance of their mental health, because of their own attitude to mental health decides to keep it hidden, and takes the lives of her three children as a result… and you think society is responsible for her actions? Perhaps start your campaign with the people who claim other people have no understanding of mental health issues, because they appear to be the people who need it the most.

So what in your opinion would be a fair and just outcome to this tragedy. Would it be better if the idea of insanity is discounted and this treated like a murder.
In that case she would be found guilty and serve a long prison sentence.
Some would prefer that but I personally think it is impossible to ignore all the medical opinion around this case.

We either accept that insanity can be a factor in sometimes horrendous crimes or not.

Antares35

santana75 wrote: »

Saw that alright. I think heads will roll over this one. Although personally I think the real culprit is the society we live in. "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation" I think it can be said "Most people lead lives of quiet desperation". This is not an isolated incident but everytime it happens in the world people say that it was a terrible tragedy and all that but then forget all about it, until the next time theres another murder suicide and the cycle repeats itself over and over. Psychiatric medication is not the answer, you cant treat deep issues like the one this lady had with drugs. Its an insane system that needs to change.

How is society the real culprit? Do you have actual concrete facts to substantiate that claim or is it just a sweeping statement? What could society have done differently? How is the system "insane" and what needs to change?

Wanderer78

One eyed Jack wrote: »

How often do circumstances arise in Ireland where someone kills their own children? Rarely.

You simply cannot blame “the system” or “society” for the fact that an individual chooses to hide the fact that they are experiencing difficulties with their mental health, and especially you cannot blame the system or society when that person is in a position where they have greater access to mental health supports than most people in Irish society.

Neither your own experience nor the experience of experts in the area of mental health could have enabled them to foresee circumstances where a parent would kill their own children.

have you ever actually experienced mental health issues, and ultimately the societal shame of admitting it? look at some of the comments even on this tread, 'personal responsibility' etc. ffs!

Antares35

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh ffs! its clearly obvious, even from this case alone, our health care system, particularly the psychological element of our system, is not fit for purpose! imho, it requires an immediate, immediate meaning 'today', multiples of billions of investment, to try deal with these rapidly growing societal issues, this clearly isnt going to happen, in fact it may never!

Sorry did I hit a nerve by asking you to elaborate on a sweeping statement? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you about the state of our system, but if you're going to make comments on the merit of something at least be able to expand on it. You refer to "rapidly growing societal issues" - what are these? And do you know how much money is pumped into the health service every year? How is throwing more money at a problem going to help? Again, you're the one saying things (society, the system etc) needs to change. I'm just asking if you've any idea how...

silver2020

silver2020 wrote: »

You seems to have a very unhealthy interest in this case. Your post counts is in the dozens and the posts show an embarrassing lack of empathy to anyone and you seems to be more expert than some of the best psychiatrists out there.

I suspect there's some hidden agenda

Unhealthy interest? I have AN interest. Much like you do.

Unhealthy is a funny term. Are you implying that my thoughts on the matter are unhealthy and therefore I might have mental health issues?

Is telling that although my post count is less than other posters who happen to agree with you, mine exhibit something unhealthy.

And agenda? I'd be interested in hearing what you imagine it to be. Believing a woman who killed her three kids should be kept out of society is an agenda? Am I anti-insanity?

joe40

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh ffs! its clearly obvious, even from this case alone, our health care system, particularly the psychological element of our system, is not fit for purpose! imho, it requires an immediate, immediate meaning 'today', multiples of billions of investment, to try deal with these rapidly growing societal issues, this clearly isnt going to happen, in fact it may never!

I agree with you that probably more investment is needed in the treatment and diagnosis side but I don't really think it is a societal issue.
There is probably more awareness of mental health issues now than there has ever been.
For me the issue is access the correct treatment.

Ashbourne hoop

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

So we are not allowed have different views opinions to the court verdict

You are, but they mean the square root of **** all to be honest. The verdict yesterday was the only verdict that could've been given. Everybody involved agreed with it, anything else is irrelevant.

A heart-breaking case, the interview last night reduced me to tears.

Samsonsmasher

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

So we are not allowed have different views opinions to the court verdict

Not unless you want to look foolish?

Wanderer78

Antares35 wrote: »

Sorry did I hit a nerve by asking you to elaborate on a sweeping statement? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you about the state of our system, but if you're going to make comments on the merit of something at least be able to expand on it. You refer to "rapidly growing societal issues" - what are these? And do you know how much money is pumped into the health service every year? How is throwing more money at a problem going to help? Again, you're the one saying things (society, the system etc) needs to change. I'm just asking if you've any idea how...

has reducing investment, particularly during austerity periods, actually helped? be aware, nothing has changed here, we still have fiscal conservatives in government, i.e. its highly likely post covid, we ll be hearing the usual nonsense, balancing budgets etc etc etc, this is bullsh!t. its clearly obvious, our health care system needs a deep gutting and significant rise in investment, all at the same time, but the most likely approach will be, little or no change, and an increase in investment, resulting in virtually, no change!

hello, hello! educate the public, invest heavily in our critical social systems, in particular our health system, and particularly our psychological departments. provide adequate services and systems for all citizens, and make access as easily available as possible to all

Wanderer78

joe40 wrote: »

I agree with you that probably more investment is needed in the treatment and diagnosis side but I don't really think it is a societal issue.
There is probably more awareness of mental health issues now than there has ever been.
For me the issue is access the correct treatment.

making sure treatment and diagnoses is avaiable is a societal problem, because all humans are susceptible to these issues, so this is an everyone's problem

ek motor

I wonder what controls will be in place for her post-treatment release ? Will she be prevented from having any contact with children ? How can psychiatrists be sure that the treatment is successful and there is virtually no chance of a relapse in the case of a multiple child murderer ?

Jequ0n

joe40 wrote: »

I agree with you that probably more investment is needed in the treatment and diagnosis side but I don't really think it is a societal issue.
There is probably more awareness of mental health issues now than there has ever been.
For me the issue is access the correct treatment.

I think what Wanderer meant was that it is unlikely that anything will change unless there is enough public pressure to see things addressed.