Not Guilty by reason of Insanity READ OP FIRST

Necro

piplip87 wrote: »

She wrote to note apologising about the murders and left a note on the door asking the husband to call 911. She also tried to kill the kids the day before.

Not guilty by reason of insanity infers that the person was not aware of the difference between right and wrong. Surely an apology note backs up the fact that she know it was wrong.

The similarities between this case and the Alan Hawe murders are there for all to see. I wonder if he survived would he be found not guilty by reason of insanity?

namloc1980 wrote: »

Whatever about the younger 2 but after killing them she picked up the eldest lad from school, bought him his lunch in a shop, then took him home and killed him. Completely pre-meditated.

These parts of the evidence have me struggling with the verdict tbh. Not that I'm arguing with the evidence provided. When both prosecution and defense agree it's pretty clear cut tbh.

But I dunno. She was clearly very ill... but insane? Not so sure I agree with that on a personal level.

namloc1980

lawred2 wrote: »

So; does she end up committed now or what?

Committed until the 31st May when the court will review it again with an updated report from the hospital on her case.

SEPT 23 1989

namloc1980 wrote: »

Whatever about the younger 2 but after killing them she picked up the eldest lad from school, bought him his lunch in a shop, then took him home and killed him. Completely pre-meditated.

she let the eldest lad watch a movie when he got home and then murdered him

drunkmonkey

Do we really need this thread. Let them rest in peace.

tdf7187

I think the government made a mistake in bowing to media pressure to change the legislation. It enables the disgusting media prurience we have seen in recent days.

As for the verdict, I suspect it is the right one. Thank God we have a live in a country of laws that is not entirely driven by media prurience of the most despicable kind.

As for boards.ie, some of you are clearly not fit to serve on any jury.

volchitsa

Curse These Metal Hands wrote: »

By studying a decades worth of counsellor's notes and having a distinguished career in the field of psychiatry.

The counsellor's notes showed depression and anxiety. Not psychosis - that was speculation from Dr Kennedy.

Dr Kennedy didn't speak to anyone who knew him, which means he diagnosed psychosis only on the basis of the notes of a counsellor who hadn't diagnosed psychosis.

PCros

Was there any inkling as to what set her off the rails the year before?

silverharp

If one was talking about suicide in general , you might frame it as an irrational decision, loss of perspective but you wouldnt say people who commit suicide are insane by and large. She seems to be more in that camp, being insane is more along the lines of satan told me to do it or other assorted voices.

White lighting

Disgusting the sympathy shes getting. The difference in the public opinion between this case and the Alan Hawe case is worrying. Both suffered mental illness,both killed their kids. One was successful in killing themselves and rightly gets called what he was a scumbag. But because he was male he always gets slaughtered more by people in public and in the media

Curse These Metal Hands

volchitsa wrote: »

The counsellor's notes showed depression and anxiety. Not psychosis - that was speculation from Dr Kennedy.

Dr Kennedy didn't speak to anyone who knew him, which means he diagnosed psychosis only on the basis of the notes of a counsellor who hadn't diagnosed psychosis.

Well, I'd rather take his word over yours anyway. Nobody knows the full contents of the notes only him and the counsellor.
He obviously recognised a pattern as he is more qualified. Maybe you can offer evidence that proves he was sane.

They didn't see it coming with Deirdre Morley either. What's your opinion on this case?

The similarities are undeniable, to say one is just evil and the other a sad case of severe mental illness is illogical.

maxsmum

White lighting wrote: »

Disgusting the sympathy shes getting. The difference in the public opinion between this case and the Alan Hawe case is worrying. Both suffered mental illness,both killed their kids. One was successful in killing themselves and rightly gets called what he was a scumbag. But because he was male he always gets slaughtered more by people in public and in the media

Well, there is actually an evidence base for differing motives for male and female parents who kill their children. Resnick I think was the academic who studied it if you Google it.

If a judge can direct jury to a verdict then the presence of the jury is a farce and a sop

If the state has decided that mothers who kill their kids are always just victims then they should own it and just not bother with the expense and bother of a trial

Would save us from the "a jury knows more than you" triteness and all (not that we ought even be allowed to discuss it, of course)

tdf7187

Say my name wrote: »

If this was 70 years ago.
The justice issued would be the death penalty.

Nowadays you can have a parent murder two children. Go to school pick up a third.
Bring them home. Murder them too.
Then they attempt to take their own life.
Are resuscitated.
Goes to court. All the details are recalled perfectly by that parent.
The jury are instructed by judge and defence to find that parent not guilty by reason of insanity.
The jury brings out that verdict.

That parent then goes to a psychiatric ward for psychologists to pick and proke at.

That's all. Nothing else.

(sarc) Yeah, wouldn't it be great to return to a country of mass poverty, high infant mortality and slave labour camps (aka, church-run institutions) for hundreds of thousands! (sarc)

Mad_maxx

what i expected based on what i read or heard , the correct verdict in my opinion too


only my opinion , desperately sad case , obviously the poor kids were the victims here but a person has to be suffering terribly to do such a thing to their own children

she should never be released from whatever psychiatric unit they send her to in my opinion but prison was not the place to condemn her to

quickbeam

Infini wrote: »

We badly need an overhaul in the whole mental health system and approach.

It's alright because the government will release a campaign telling us to try mindfullness and go for a walk, and that should fix solve all mental health problems right there :rolleyes:.

namloc1980

Mad_maxx wrote: »

what i expected based on what i read or heard , the correct verdict in my opinion too


only my opinion , desperately sad case , obviously the poor kids were the victims here but a person has to be suffering terribly to do such a thing to their own children

A mother killing their children should not be just dismissed as mental illness/insanity.

Mad_maxx

maxsmum wrote: »

I think mental health services can only work with what patients tell them. It said multiple times in this case that she never disclosed her true suicidal / homicidal feelings to the medical profession. It sounds like she had plenty of involvement with mental health services.

the root of the problem is the liberalisation of the system , its too difficult to section or commit someone nowadays and it results in cases like this happening from time to time

we are conditioned into believing that nobody should ever be committed but the reality is that some people simply cannot manage in the real world , asylums were not the great evil that liberals would have us believe . which is not to say that many werent sent there back in the day were committed under entirely spurious circumstances

CrabRevolution

yosser hughes wrote: »

what's the obvious reason? How is this case the opposite? If the premise is that both were insane, how are the cases different? You'll need to explain your reasoning there.

Alan Hawe didn't hang round for a trial but if he did, he may well have had the same verdict as today.

Section 6 of the Criminal Insanity Act, 2006 I think is where to look.

I don't know why you're referring to trials, cases and the law considering neither my post nor the one I replied to were talking about the law.

I was talking about the media response. Alan Hawe was made out to be evil incarnate, yet this case is all "the poor craytur". The obvious distinction is that Hawe was a man, so made a useful story for people to push "toxic masculinity" stories, which isn't possible here.

JackTC

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Why do you think she's going to spend the rest of her time in a mental institution? In her testimony she talked of being put onto new medication after she was arrested that seems to have stop her psychosis completely. Medication that they were able to proscribe her once they knew the full extent of her mental health issues - something she had been keeping hidden from everyone - including her psychiatrist - because of the shame she felt.

Source for that? I can't find anything

Immortal Starlight

shadyslimshady wrote: »

Because she wasn't in a good state of mind.

Have a youtube of people with severe Mania with Bipolar.

Its like there a completely different person.

Manic episodes can last for a week or longer.

She could have told anyone about the thoughts she was having and would have been helped. I don’t have any sympathy for her.

The Raging Bile Duct

silverharp wrote: »

If one was talking about suicide in general , you might frame it as an irrational decision, loss of perspective but you wouldnt say people who commit suicide are insane by and large. She seems to be more in that camp, being insane is more along the lines of satan told me to do it or other assorted voices.

That's top Pub Expert psychology there. It's a pity you weren't called to give your opinion on the case.

The Raging Bile Duct

JackTC wrote: »

Source for that? I can't find anything

There was a recount on the day's proceedings on the radio a day or two ago where they mentioned this. I'll try to find it if I can.

Edit: found it here in The Irish Times

The court had earlier heard that, within a few weeks of her admission to the Central Mental Hospital in January 2020, on a new regime of medication that she described as a “wonder drug”, Ms Morley told a psychiatrist she felt more like the “old me”.
However, she said “the grief was unbearable, she wanted a magic wand to go back three weeks and ask for help”.
“I really miss my kids and husband,” she said. “I don’t know how you learn to live with these things.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/deirdre-morley-trial-hears-of-mental-state-deteriorating-before-murders-1.4569708

Tacitus Kilgore

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I don't know why you're referring to trials, cases and the law considering neither my post nor the one I replied to were talking about the law.

I was talking about the media response. Alan Hawe was made out to be evil incarnate, yet this case is all "the poor craytur". The obvious distinction is that Hawe was a man, so made a useful story for people to push "toxic masculinity" stories, which isn't possible here.

Just one thing (of many, many differences between the two) - Hawe wasn't previously admitted to a mental health hospital for a long period beforehand. - This case is different, not just the reporting of it.





The whole case is painfully tragic, jesus christ those poor kids, and their Father - he4 seems like the most loving man, my heart breaks for him.

Tipsy McSwagger

Immortal Starlight wrote: »

She could have told anyone about the thoughts she was having and would have been helped. I don’t have any sympathy for her.

Thousands of young men have killed themselves in this country because they could not bring themselves to talk to anyone.

Sandor Clegane

So what'll happen now...spend a bit of time in a psychiatric ward and then be deemed cured and released back into society? maybe a new identity as well?

CptMonkey

Why do the juries deliberate when the judge tells them the verdict to arrive at? What’s the point in it?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I see this going the usual route

"The court has ruled and technically its correct and experts have said it so anyone who has an issue with it is either ignorant or a monster"

That wont help the next three kids and bear in mind before that high horse runs off with you on it that the person commenting may have very relevant experience in being raised by parents where the latter's diagnosis and treatment came before the child's wellbeing.

That is not an issue for the court. The court is there to judge the facts of the case before them.


As I said in the leniency thread...

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland's justice system in and off itself is not too lenient. It's the lack of support services around it that's the issue.

Our mental health, social and other services in the country need to improve exponentially.

It needs a serious sit down and planning and then needs the government to pump the adequate resources into it.

White lighting

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Thousands of young men have killed themselves in this country because they could not bring themselves to talk to anyone.

True but how many of them go on a murder rampage first?

boardise

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Three psychiatrists for the defence and prosecution disagree with you .

Experts yeah -but how much do they really know or how much can even be known at all about this 'insanity'phenomenon?
I'm at a loss to understand how this individual was at large or left in charge of these children given all that had transpired beforehand.
Was she insane previously or was it only on the day ?
We're told she left a note of apology -which seems to indicate that she knew that what she did was wrong.
I frankly doubt that these psychiatrists know what they're talking much of the time and I'm appalled that they slant their decisions so much in favour of maximum freedom of severely troubled people-thus permitting unpredictable threats to innocent people to circulate among the population. We've seen the consequences of this many times before in Ireland and the UK.

Plus -we don't have to be 'experts ' to analyse any case based on reason and broad life experience and express our scepticism about any particular verdict. Do 'experts' not frequently disagree among themselves ?

Insanity does not mean that someone doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, that's a completely different thing.
People who are insane can appear very controlled and calm and can make meticulous plans.