ESRI says we need more "progressive" taxes lol

Ludwig Wittgenstein

B2021M wrote: »

Yes and in the next breath we'll be told everyone is equal. When it comes to taxes though apparently some should pay proportionally more than others.

Yes, and they’ll still end up with more than others.

tjhook

Geuze wrote: »

Why?

All workers get tax relief on pension conts, including public servants.

The difference is that the public service pension does not have a fund. The new taxation proposal specifically applies to "funded supplementary pensions".

Of course there are public servants who top up their public service pension with a private fund. But when a full career in public service results in a pension of 50% of salary plus lump sum, it's not going to be to the same degree as somebody who isn't a public servant.

One suggestion to level the pitch is:
"Any proposal to reduce marginal rate tax relief on personal pension contributions should and must, to be equitable, also impute employer contributions for tax purposes, i.e. a BIK (in a manner similar to that applied currently to employer contributions to PRSAs), including a BIK of an imputed notional public service employer contribution of at least 29% p.a. for public service employees recruited before 1st January 2013, and 9% p.a. for those recruited after that date."

I'm not sure that would suit many employees, public or private. But it shows the inequality that is inherent in the strawman proposal.

Antares35

Ludwig Wittgenstein wrote: »

Yes, and they’ll still end up with more than others.

Do you think everyone should end up with the same?

Call me Al

Ludwig Wittgenstein wrote: »

Yes, and they’ll still end up with more than others.

If they've invested their time and effort beyond those others then that's as should be. There's nothing arbitrary about that.

B2021M

Ludwig Wittgenstein wrote: »

Yes, and they’ll still end up with more than others.

And do they have higher earnings just by chance? Do they need to be punished for it?

decreds

Ludwig Wittgenstein wrote: »

Just look at what Greece - one of the poorest countries in Europe - faces with regards to the migrant crisis. Ireland’s experience of asylum seekers is minuscule in comparison.

Geography clearly isn't your strong point.

B2021M

decreds wrote: »

Geography clearly isn't your strong point.

He's a philosopher in fairness.

screamer

suicide_circus wrote: »

There is indeed a two tier health service in Ireland. One tier pays for treatment, the other does not.

There’s a two tier for all things in Ireland. Problem is there’s too few who contribute and too many who benefit.

We need a more progressive step to making the work shy actually get off their asses and you know, work. However, with the me feiners due for election next time round, the work shy will be given even more whilst the workers will be squeezed till we pop.
I have my savings well in order, because if this happens, I’ll be progressing out of Ireland before I can be robbed blind whilst simultaneously working myself into the ground.

decreds

fliball123 wrote: »

Not true while there are no direct flights to Dublin from most countries who have supposed refugees there is an onus on the refugee to seek solace and asylum in the first safe country. Yet they still get here to Dublin, they should be put back on the plain to the first safe country they came from. Why do they do this why Ireland as they see our champagne welfare system. Houses for all manta.

Be careful with that thought crime, you may get banned for making too much sense.

beggars_bush

If low earners pay more tax it just doesn't make it worthwhile to go to work
Eg creche workers. Might gross 380 or 390 per week. How much tax do you want them to pay?

beggars_bush

How do you go about actually taxing 'wealth' though?

Economics101

I've just come across this thread and apologies if I may be repeating some earlier posts (I haven't managed to read through all 330 of them).

The correct meaning of progressive taxation is when a tax takes a higher proportion of income from better-off taxpayers than it does from less well-off taxpayers. This may be contrasted with regressive taxation which takes higher proportions of poorer people's incomes, and proportional taxes which take an equal proportion of income irrespective of the size of that income. The term "progressive" is thus a descriptive term when properly understood, a point with noting when the p-word so often has ideological undertones.

Note that if someone with income of €50k pays €10k in tax whereas someone with an income of €100k pays €15k in tax this is regressive: sure the richer guy mays more in absolute terms but the poorer guy pays a higher fraction of his/her income.

Overall the Irish tax and benefit system makes for a comparatively large reduction in income inequality net of taxes and transfers compared to pre-tax/transfer income, and in that loose sense it is quite progressive

Mike Murdock

beggars_bush wrote: »

If low earners pay more tax it just doesn't make it worthwhile to go to work
Eg creche workers. Might gross 380 or 390 per week. How much tax do you want them to pay?

Maybe cut €50-€60 off of the dole at the same time you implement a tax on lower earners.

Beasty

Mike Murdock wrote: »

Maybe cut €50-€60 off of the dole at the same time you implement a tax on lower earners.

You'll never be able to push through cuts in welfare expenditure, but it can be frozen. In the current situation the country is in, that's something that should be seriously considered as welfare payments are a very clear disincentive to work.

We will face an increasing shortage of workers as we emerge from the pandemic, and bringing in more low paid workers from Eastern Europe is not a solution as that puts more pressure on the housing market. We need to get all those currently receiving government support into full-time work. That will go some way towards closing the gap between taxes and expenditure we are facing for the next few years. Further taxing the middle classes and better off is not going to deliver the sea change we need to be able to fund government expenditure we are already pretty much committed to

Then see what happens as inflation takes off and suddenly we see interest rates creeping back up. Government debt becomes more costly to service and we create financial black holes that we may struggle to get back on top of

I suspect that's probably inevitable though as no government wants to look further than the next 12-18 months. We will slowly descend into another financial crisis

Mr. teddywinkles

RandomViewer wrote: »

Fred had his 78th birthday yesterday, think this thread was a present to himself and he hasn't mentioned Feta cheese yet

Anything relevant to any post youv posted here. Nothing contributory whatsoever. Just a fooking moan what anyone else is posting .

Mr. teddywinkles

Ludwig Wittgenstein wrote: »

Progressive is not an ideologically loaded term. It is an economic concept where those with greater means contribute more than those who don’t. To suggest otherwise is ignorance, plain and simple.

Conversely, there is a real sense of “deep entitlement” from the wealthy who believe they are entitled to a far greater level of resources and security than the average worker. Something as arbitrary as a correlation between one’s talents and interests and the demands of the market should not determine whether one is entitled to the basic necessities of life, i.e. food, housing, healthcare etc.

Arguing that there is a lack of civic duty whilst denigrating those who are worse off as simply “takers” is laughable.

Not when there is no advantage getting educated and being paid more to advance your living standards and being taxed to the point of being no better off sitting on your hole. Supporting those that do.
You do see the problem a lot of posters have with this.
Wealthy they are not.
Trying to creating a good standard of living yes. But when ya have a ball and chain dragging off ya and the ball keeps getting bigger every year or budget.
Ya start getting a little fooked up.
I'm all for helping those who cant and giving people a kick start in life but this has been even extended beyond our borders which is now ludicrous.

Galwayguy35

This government is unpopular as it is, they know they would be crucified at the next election if they moved to push up income and property tax.

beggars_bush

beggars_bush wrote: »

If low earners pay more tax it just doesn't make it worthwhile to go to work
Eg creche workers. Might gross 380 or 390 per week. How much tax do you want them to pay?

Drive people at the margins onto a deeper hole, interesting proposition, I am sure it will work out well

fliball123

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

This government is unpopular as it is, they know they would be crucified at the next election if they moved to push up income and property tax.

The problem is they have to do something. We are past the point of financial difficulty that seen us have the IMF called in the last time. We have a housing crisis. We have the public sector scheduled to get 3 payrises. I dont think there will be anything done for the rest of this government ..I await Sinn Fein to come in and be painted as the bad guys as they will have to make the hard choices.

B2021M

fliball123 wrote: »

The problem is they have to do something. We are past the point of financial difficulty that seen us have the IMF called in the last time. We have a housing crisis. We have the public sector scheduled to get 3 payrises. I dont think there will be anything done for the rest of this government ..I await Sinn Fein to come in and be painted as the bad guys as they will have to make the hard choices.

Yes. Nobody wants to make the hard decisions but soon they'll have no choice.

Galwayguy35

fliball123 wrote: »

The problem is they have to do something. We are past the point of financial difficulty that seen us have the IMF called in the last time. We have a housing crisis. We have the public sector scheduled to get 3 payrises. I dont think there will be anything done for the rest of this government ..I await Sinn Fein to come in and be painted as the bad guys as they will have to make the hard choices.

Donohue was asked about tax rises and he ruled it out basically waffling on about getting the money somewhere else but no specifics as to what this magic money tree was.

Doubt SF will be chomping at the bit next time round to get into government like they were last time, its a whole different ball game now after C19

RandomViewer

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Anything relevant to any post youv posted here. Nothing contributory whatsoever. Just a fooking moan what anyone else is posting .

Load of wa##ers trying to take money off those worse off than them rather than attack the waste and cronyism then so be it, Fred is a well known crank who starts threads like this, gets halfwit twits who don't know their so called well paid jobs are dependant on others on different incomes having disposable income ,but no in their cosseted little existence they are the f##king masters of the universe,

fliball123

RandomViewer wrote: »

Load of wa##ers trying to take money off those worse off than them rather than attack the waste and cronyism then so be it, Fred is a well known crank who starts threads like this, gets halfwit twits who don't know their so called well paid jobs are dependant on others on different incomes having disposable income ,but no in their cosseted little existence they are the f##king masters of the universe,

First off that wont be happenging as there is not one politician who will do this.

The thing is our welfare system is competing with low paying jobs . We also hit the higher tax bracket at a point before the AIW and you have to pay over half of that money earned back to the government. Instead of people worse off standing on the necks of others trying to earn their way up the ladder, why don't they try to better their own circumstance. No one is owed anything in this country if you want something get up off your hole work your a$$ off and you can get it, but in this country your almost kneecapped when your trying to run the race that is life by the money your on the hook for, for pay outs to the poor getting handouts some who are there by choice due to these payouts being overly generous. The rich who are too big to pay tax and the indifferent as in the public sector and other vested interest groups who are all at the through of tax payers money.

The basic premise should be if you can work you work. If your on a lower income it should be up to you to better your circumstance instead of relying on others. By all means I have no bother paying money in tax to help those who cant work and for the greater good but the glaring fact is I get little or nothing for the money I pay and a lot of people are in the same boat.

dannijuno

I just know one thing, if income tax is increased.. I'm out of here. I'm already extorted with tax, my total income tax a month is €1600. That's double my mortgage.

Amadan Dubh

dannijuno wrote: »

I just know one thing, if income tax is increased.. I'm out of here. I'm already extorted with tax, my total income tax a month is €1600. That's double my mortgage.

My rent is 3 times your mortgage. If they don't abolish USC but try to tax me more, I'm also going to try to get a transfer with my company in the coming years.

trixiebust

Tax educate & regulate marijuana..hey presto progressive taxation!

dannijuno

dannijuno wrote: »

I just know one thing, if income tax is increased.. I'm out of here. I'm already extorted with tax, my total income tax a month is €1600. That's double my mortgage.

Imagine being unfortunate enough to have an income that puts you well above the average income here as well as in the top few % of humans alive that requires a tax bill of €1600 a month. I think I will start a go fund me for you

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

Imagine being unfortunate enough to have an income that puts you well above the average income here as well as in the top few % of humans alive that requires a tax bill of €1600 a month. I think I will start a go fund me for you

So you want to stand on anyone's neck who is any way successful in order to better those who are worse off?

Why not put onus on someone to better their own circumstance?

RandomViewer

fliball123 wrote: »

First off that wont be happenging as there is not one politician who will do this.

The thing is our welfare system is competing with low paying jobs . We also hit the higher tax bracket at a point before the AIW and you have to pay over half of that money earned back to the government. Instead of people worse off standing on the necks of others trying to earn their way up the ladder, why don't they try to better their own circumstance. No one is owed anything in this country if you want something get up off your hole work your a$$ off and you can get it, but in this country your almost kneecapped when your trying to run the race that is life by the money your on the hook for, for pay outs to the poor getting handouts some who are there by choice due to these payouts being overly generous. The rich who are too big to pay tax and the indifferent as in the public sector and other vested interest groups who are all at the through of tax payers money.

The basic premise should be if you can work you work. If your on a lower income it should be up to you to better your circumstance instead of relying on others. By all means I have no bother paying money in tax to help those who cant work and for the greater good but the glaring fact is I get little or nothing for the money I pay and a lot of people are in the same boat.

Most of the essential workers during the pandemic were the low paid, these are the jobs where people had to risk their lives for a tenner an hour, all these jobs were necessary, someone has to do them, Thousands of peoples livelihoods were destroyed by the FF/Green Bank crash,
They had to start over to put bread on the table for their families, lots of the main moaners here are crying because in they've made bad decisions, worked like donkeys when they should have been living their lives, now they've realised that Euros won't keep you warm at night or listen to their mad nattering, loads of lonely nerds jealous of nursing home assistants and DPD drivers, be funny if they weren't so pathetic

fliball123

RandomViewer wrote: »

Most of the essential workers during the pandemic were the low paid, these are the jobs where people had to risk their lives for a tenner an hour, all these jobs were necessary, someone has to do them, Thousands of peoples livelihoods were destroyed by the FF/Green Bank crash,
They had to start over to put bread on the table for their families, lots of the main moaners here are crying because in they've made bad decisions, worked like donkeys when they should have been living their lives, now they've realised that Euros won't keep you warm at night or listen to their mad nattering, loads of lonely nerds jealous of nursing home assistants and DPD drivers, be funny if they weren't so pathetic

I believe the minimum wage is more than a tenner an hour?? Who has asked them to do those jobs? Did someone put a gun to their head and tell them you stay in that low paying job dont ever have any aspirations to further your career along. Instead of p1ssing and moaning about how bad they had it why dont they do something to get a better job. No one owes anyone anything. If you cant get a decent job upskill or reeducate, if your still struggling the world is a big place surely you will find something somewhere. I just find it disgusting that the same set of people are asked to pay for it all while gaining phuck all.

The crash in 08 hit everyone and this is where we are headed again and this time the income tax payer has already been bleed dry they cant get anymore blood from that stone.