ESRI says we need more "progressive" taxes lol

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

So you want to stand on anyone's neck who is any way successful in order to better those who are worse off?

Why not put onus on someone to better their own circumstance?

Because all these jobs with tax liabilities of €1600 a month are readily available.

The more you earn to more disposable income you have and the more tax you pay.

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

Because all these jobs with tax liabilities of €1600 a month are readily available.

The more you earn to more disposable income you have and the more tax you pay.

It still means this person is paying more tax than maybe 20 low paid workers put together and they all use the same public services this tax is supposed to be paying. How much more to you want? Will we turn him upside down and shake until they have nothing left? Our tax system is probably one of the most progressive in the world. Those who earn more pay more. Its this kind of attitude of skin someone who is successful for the greater good that will see a lot of people leaving dodge. As other countries don't punish success they embrace it. There are lots of jobs world wide that pay a decent wage.

RandomViewer

fliball123 wrote: »

I believe the minimum wage is more than a tenner an hour?? Who has asked them to do those jobs? Did someone put a gun to their head and tell them you stay in that low paying job dont ever have any aspirations to further your career along. Instead of p1ssing and moaning about how bad they had it why dont they do something to get a better job. No one owes anyone anything. If you cant get a decent job upskill or reeducate, if your still struggling the world is a big place surely you will find something somewhere. I just find it disgusting that the same set of people are asked to pay for it all while gaining phuck all.

The crash in 08 hit everyone and this is where we are headed again and this time the income tax payer has already been bleed dry they cant get anymore blood from that stone.

But your assertion is that these aren't jobs and that everyone should be tax consultants and Feng Sui gurus, that no one's needs to do these jobs and the money that would be spent paying shop assistants and farm workers and cleaners should all be given to you, minimum wage went to €10.25 in January,

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

It still means this person is paying more tax than maybe 20 low paid workers put together and they all use the same public services this tax is supposed to be paying. How much more to you want? Will we turn him upside down and shake until they have nothing left? Our tax system is probably one of the most progressive in the world. Those who earn more pay more. Its this kind of attitude of skin someone who is successful for the greater good that will see a lot of people leaving dodge. As other countries don't punish success they embrace it.

This is horsesh*t of the highest order. The higher earner after tax does not have less income than someone earning less. But balance the tax take with the flat tax that is the darling of the the entitled and you actually harm the economy. The lower income brackets spend virtually all their after tax income driving the economy. Reducing tax to higher earners results in diminishing returns as that disposable income disproportionately go into savings etc.

Am just waiting for someone to say but but but trickle down economics

Mr. teddywinkles

RandomViewer wrote: »

Load of wa##ers trying to take money off those worse off than them rather than attack the waste and cronyism then so be it, Fred is a well known crank who starts threads like this, gets halfwit twits who don't know their so called well paid jobs are dependant on others on different incomes having disposable income ,but no in their cosseted little existence they are the f##king masters of the universe,

Ya do realise that the people your trying to convince are sons and daughters of people that have worked these shote jobs. Hardship n all that. That's why we're here arguing. You do get that don't you

RandomViewer

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Ya do realise that the people your trying to convince are sons and daughters of people that have worked these shote jobs. Hardship n all that. That's why we're here arguing. You do get that don't you

We bred a generation of a$$$holes, too stupid and self-centred to notice what's going on around them

Mr. teddywinkles

RandomViewer wrote: »

We bred a generation of a$$$holes, too stupid and self-centred to notice what's going on around them

No what we've bred is a society that turns on itself to protect a corrupt system. A system that's being highlighted with each passing year.
Look to the stars. Higher up echelons of this so called cohesive society. Money is created even if magically from thin. It still goes somewhere.
I'd start looking where it goes. It aint with you or me. So where. Look at the banking system as an example.
They reckon if 3% of all deposits in the world was withdrawn today by depositors. World economic crash. All based on loans and virtual money. Last recession was all that.
I just wonder who all this virtual money is propping up?

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

you make it sound like anyone who is ok with taxes is by definition a socialist ?

Anyone who is ok with taxes is okay with socialism.
Anyone who defines themselves as anti socialist, and is okay with taxes, doesn't understand the words "anti socialist". The two concepts are at complete loggerheads with each other. See my earlier post about veggies and meat eating.

You have, conspicuously, avoided the questions I put to you for the second time.

Geuze

tjhook wrote: »

The difference is that the public service pension does not have a fund. The new taxation proposal specifically applies to "funded supplementary pensions".

Of course there are public servants who top up their public service pension with a private fund. But when a full career in public service results in a pension of 50% of salary plus lump sum, it's not going to be to the same degree as somebody who isn't a public servant.

One suggestion to level the pitch is:
"Any proposal to reduce marginal rate tax relief on personal pension contributions should and must, to be equitable, also impute employer contributions for tax purposes, i.e. a BIK (in a manner similar to that applied currently to employer contributions to PRSAs), including a BIK of an imputed notional public service employer contribution of at least 29% p.a. for public service employees recruited before 1st January 2013, and 9% p.a. for those recruited after that date."

I'm not sure that would suit many employees, public or private. But it shows the inequality that is inherent in the strawman proposal.

Those two links refer to the planned auto-enrolment work pension.

That has nothing to do with PS occupational pensions.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

It still means this person is paying more tax than maybe 20 low paid workers put together and they all use the same public services this tax is supposed to be paying. How much more to you want? Will we turn him upside down and shake until they have nothing left? Our tax system is probably one of the most progressive in the world. Those who earn more pay more.

Yes, anybody calling for a more progressive income tax system here must accept that we already have the most progressive income tax system.


https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-has-eu-s-most-progressive-tax-system-study-finds-1.4148368#:~:text=The%20Republic%20has%20the%20most,Social%20Research%20Institute%20(ESRI).

http://www.publicpolicyarchive.ie/ireland-has-the-most-progressive-income-tax-system-in-the-eu-2/

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

This is horsesh*t of the highest order. The higher earner after tax does not have less income than someone earning less. But balance the tax take with the flat tax that is the darling of the the entitled and you actually harm the economy. The lower income brackets spend virtually all their after tax income driving the economy. Reducing tax to higher earners results in diminishing returns as that disposable income disproportionately go into savings etc.

Am just waiting for someone to say but but but trickle down economics

People who earn over 35/36k face 48.5% marginal tax rate.

We already have really high marginal income tax rates on average workers.

Ireland is very unusual, in that the top marginal income rate starts very, very early, at 35/36k.

The top income tax rate in Germany is 45%, but it starts at 270k.


Anybody calling for even higher income taxes must acknowledge this.

The issue in Ireland is that a million earners pay virtually nothing.

It sounds mean, it doesn't sound nice, but it's the truth.

COVID showed it, thousands lost work, income tax receipts hardly budged.

As I have said over and over, my parents are a good example:

• They pay 8%-10% direct income taxes on 50k approx
• two medical cards
• two FTP
• free TV licence
• 35 pm off elec / 420 pa

They have 300k in the bank, 600k assets.

Just think about that, we are giving free electricity to people like my parents, and other people who are millionaires!!!!

Geuze

By the way, here is a Twitter thread by the author of the report that sparked this thread:

https://twitter.com/barratree/status/1395751992954429442



https://twitter.com/ESRIDublin/status/1395620546130415618

tjhook

Geuze wrote: »

Those two links refer to the planned auto-enrolment work pension.

That has nothing to do with PS occupational pensions.

The links refer to the government "strawman" paper that makes a number of proposals - one being autoenrolement, and another being a reduction of tax relief on contributions to "funded" pensions.

You're right that it has nothing to do with PS occupational pensions - and that's the point. Any legislation is likely to be constructed in a way that shelters PS employees from it. The only people affected will be people with non-PS pensions.

Mr. teddywinkles

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Ya do realise that the people your trying to convince are sons and daughters of people that have worked these shote jobs. Hardship n all that. That's why we're here arguing. You do get that don't you

I tend to find that in real life its the ones whose mammy and daddy babied them and paid for everything end up with the opinions that the op and a few others have.

Mr. teddywinkles

DubInMeath wrote: »

I tend to find that in real life its the ones whose mammy and daddy babied them and paid for everything end up with the opinions that the op and a few others have.

So the ones that were not, are carried by the ones you refer to now ?

fliball123

RandomViewer wrote: »

But your assertion is that these aren't jobs and that everyone should be tax consultants and Feng Sui gurus, that no one's needs to do these jobs and the money that would be spent paying shop assistants and farm workers and cleaners should all be given to you, minimum wage went to €10.25 in January,

First off my simple assertion is this country punishes people who have made a go at bettering their outcome in life with regards to working. Most people in good jobs started out doing low paying jobs, personally I spent 4 years in Dunnes and spent time (4 more years) working in a butchers shop as well I was hardly minting it. But working in the likes of the butchers doing 50/60 hours a week and getting very little pay was the hardest I have ever worked physically. I got a taste of that and decided I wanted something better and paid for college as a mature student to better myself. I knew I wanted better. Most low paying jobs are supposed to be for transient in nature as in people should be using them like a stepping stone to go where they want to go with respect to their career. If your happy enough to work for low pay then more power to you, but don't expect to be compensated by others who took the decision to better themselves and go up the ladder with regards to wage. No one should go into their working career thinking they are owed something and that is exactly the attitude we have in this country, in fact its worse some dont even want to engage within our labour market and expect to be put up and paid by the state for doing SFA

RandomViewer

RandomViewer wrote: »

An Post oversee it , assume someone goes around on quiet days in the sorting office, can see FFG adding TV licence onto VAT, extra 1% to keep Joe Duffy in sour jellies

Do An Post do it for free?


I doubt it.

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

This is horsesh*t of the highest order. The higher earner after tax does not have less income than someone earning less. But balance the tax take with the flat tax that is the darling of the the entitled and you actually harm the economy. The lower income brackets spend virtually all their after tax income driving the economy. Reducing tax to higher earners results in diminishing returns as that disposable income disproportionately go into savings etc.

Am just waiting for someone to say but but but trickle down economics

Where did I say that higher earners have less income than someone earning less??

As has been pointed out the tax on income is punitive in this country the higher rate of tax kicks in at too low a level. Ireland has possibly the most progressive income tax system in the world

Have you any evidence of reducing tax on higher earners results in diminishing returns as there is evidence to the contrary that taxing these people more will see them leave and will stop people taking up opportunities like O.T, as well as it will increase the levels of black market activity that is all a hindrance to our income tax take. But you seem very angry and you don't seem to have any evidence to support what your trying to say,

Mules

beggars_bush wrote: »

If low earners pay more tax it just doesn't make it worthwhile to go to work
Eg creche workers. Might gross 380 or 390 per week. How much tax do you want them to pay?

You'd need to tax social welfare too to get around that.

Mr. teddywinkles

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

So the ones that were not, are carried by the ones you refer to now ?

Nope, they just get on with going to work and enjoying life knowing that, everyone needs a hand at times, and not everyone is as lucky as them.

They also know that at that trying to bring in American style healthcare and social policies are the stupidest thing that a country can do, otherwise they would be living there.

It's the ones that don't value what we have as bad as it can be at times, that tend to crumble when life really turns the screws on them because money is the only thing that defines them.

fliball123

DubInMeath wrote: »

Nope, they just get on with going to work and enjoying life knowing that, everyone needs a hand at times, and not everyone is as lucky as them.

They also know that at that trying to bring in American style healthcare and social policies are the stupidest thing that a country can do, otherwise they would be living there.

It's the ones that don't value what we have as bad as it can be at times, that tend to crumble when life really turns the screws on them because money is the only thing that defines them.

Unfortunately money is how we live. I have no bother paying for people who needs a hand who have fallen on hard times but its those who have absolutely no desire to better their own position and want to keep an over reliance on anyone who has gone out of their way to better their position that I do take issue with.

Antares35

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Imagine being unfortunate enough to have an income that puts you well above the average income here as well as in the top few % of humans alive that requires a tax bill of €1600 a month. I think I will start a go fund me for you

It isn't just "fortune" that gets people to where they are in life FFS.

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

Unfortunately money is how we live. I have no bother paying for people who needs a hand who have fallen on hard times but its those who have absolutely no desire to better their own position and want to keep an over reliance on anyone how has gone out of their way to better their position that I do take issue with.

Money is how we pay for things, really more than how you live. You can earn a fortune but choose to live frugally, or you can earn a standard wage, (or even more or less) and live a reasonable life with the necessities and some nice extras, or you can buy stuff you don't really need because you think that it shows you have some measure of success.

Being on the dole gives you none of that despite what some people would have you believe, you basically won't starve if you can keep a roof over your head.

Personally having put myself through two degrees at night, in order to put me in a position where I earn a rather good wage with excellent conditions, I don't have an issue with my taxes being spent on public services etc.

johnmcdnl

dannijuno wrote: »

I just know one thing, if income tax is increased.. I'm out of here. I'm already extorted with tax, my total income tax a month is €1600. That's double my mortgage.

Out of curiosity which country are you planning on moving to that maintain or improve your income post taxes. And before answering don't forget that in other countries you'll have to pay for things like property taxes or even for boring things like water.
Sure there's some form of charges on these items in Ireland but you might be surprised to find out that they are much higher elsewhere.

Or maybe there are a small number of utopian countries where you will be actually way better off all things considered. Which is I'd be keen on finding out for my own information.

fvp4

fvp4 wrote: »

Well in terms of net tax they are. That’s a financial reality. We can’t fund government services with the tax taken from the public service. Obviously. The tax taken from the public sector is money not received by public sector worker but it isn’t money received by the government.

So, we should just cut all funding to palliative care as it's a financial burden? I'll get onto Paul Reid.

ThunbergsAreGo

The account of tax you pay is a massive disincentive in this country at present, they higher rate starts way to early and hasnt materially changed in years.

This does impact people's decisions and I know many who have emigrated due in part to this. It also acts as a deterrent to working families having kids (or more kids), something we should be encouraging more.

We get zero value from our public services, still pay private health care etc, and in some cases actively cost me money. I hear Pascal talking about how the pandemic showing we "need more government intervention in lives".

We don't need to pay more tax, public services need to be more efficient or find savings. The government need to make hard decisions and not rely on squeezing pepqole dry to avoid criticism.

Take the Direct Provision replacement, about 750m, and zero benefit to people paying tax in this country (and I am not anti refugee, I am anti ****e government), or the crszy HAP prices being paid, driving up rent. We provide better support in Crèche fees for those not working than working.

ThunbergsAreGo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So, we should just cut all funding to palliative care as it's a financial burden? I'll get onto Paul Reid.

Well you could not hire a Paul Reid on 450k.....

Government buildings

What I have noticed is that the cleaning of streets and footpaths has all but stopped in our area.

How come this could be done before the property tax was introduced but now with the hefty property tax the council is unable to provide even a street cleaning service?

ThunbergsAreGo

Government buildings wrote: »

What I have noticed is that the cleaning of streets and footpaths has all but stopped in our area.

How come this could be done before the property tax was introduced but now with the hefty property tax the council is unable to provide even a street cleaning service?

Cos the money is now being spent on what ever flavour of the day the media /NGOs are pushing

Wanderer78

Fred Cryton wrote:

Firstly let's please stop using the word "progressive" in relation to taxes. What we're really talking about is robbing the middle class blind in order to pay for bloated welfare payments and bloated public sector salaries and pensions.

Taxation has moved from wealth onto the backs of the working classes, particularly the middle classes, this is a common outcome from so called free market policies globally, which includes Ireland. Another element of these ideologies is to attack the welfare classes and the public sector as a whole, a perfect diverging tactic. All of these tactics have helped lead us into a period of rapid growth of wealth, but also a rapid growth in wealth inequality, which is now putting all lives at risk, including the wealthy themselves